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The Ultimate Martial Art (Practiced by the Royal Canadian Mounted Spetznaz-RCMS)
Royal Canadian Mounted Spetznaz .com ^

Posted on 02/07/2003 1:56:10 AM PST by spetznaz

Glorious History of the Royal Canadian Mounted Spetsnaz

The amazing history of the heroic founders and lineage holders of the Royal Canadian Mounted Spetsnaz. Warning: If you read this you might begin to worship these larger-than-life heros as gods. This is acceptable.

1917

It was the cold winter of 1917 in Northern Russia. A small band of Cossack soldiers were left to protect a secret store of vodka. Having helped themselves to an ample supply of the warming beverage this brave band of men became disoriented under white-out conditions. One of the Cossack commanders, claiming to have seen a troupe of circus midgets taunting him in the distance, led a charge northward into the blizzard.

Alas, the brave heros found no such circus midgets and quickly became lost in the arctic circle. many of the men perished and were eaten, thier skin worn as clothing.

The survivors eventually crossing the arctic circle into Canada where they set up camp in the wilderness.

The remaining men found their new home inhospitable as a plentiful supply of vodka was nowhere to be found, and yet they carried on.

They learned to live off the land and survive on the local "beer", and inferior substitute for vodka. In the mean time they honed their martial skills by observing the animals around them- the squirrel, the newt, the moose, the bear, and of course, the sasquatch.

The long, cold Canadian nights being what they were, and given the fact that this band of worshipful heros was all men, these adventurers turned to the closest humanoids to help continue their glorious bloodline. Many of the men mated with, married, and were welcomed into sasquatch families. The resulting superior offspring are the ancestors of todays Royal Canadian Mounted Spetsnaz.

The mixing of the species has provided with some natural genetic advantages. The sasquatch superior strength, hiding abilities, and ability to propel feces at extremely high velocities combined with the humans ability for language, and toolmaking - make the RCMS a superhuman band of heros.

1944

With the start of World War II, Canada was looking to overcome its image as a country of disgusting pacifists. Naturally they looked to our glorious ancestors for help. The Royal Canadian Mounted Spetsnaz was formed as the most elite and deadly special forces unit ever produced by North America. A band of 6 of these unarmed soldiers layed waste to the German city of Heidelberg with bare hands alone. One of the brave band punched a hole in the wall of Heidelburgh castle to capture the world's largest wine cask, an important strategic blow to Axis powers.

Today

Today the RCMS spend all their time in meditation, honing their martial skills, and beating the out of wusses who deserve it. They have since relocated to an undisclosed Slavic country where they are more free to practice their finely honed art. But if you can find them, and you have enough alcohol, you might just be able to learn some of the secrets of the Royal Canadian Mounted Spetsnaz.

(Picture not yet available .....awaiting declassification)


TOPICS: Announcements; Canada; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Free Republic; Miscellaneous; Political Humor/Cartoons; Russia; Unclassified
KEYWORDS: brucelee; canada; chopsuey; martialarts; mounties; russia; spetznaz
Just posting this to provide a brief respite from serious stuff.

The above link (www.royalcanadianmountedspetsnaz.com) came from a much larger website called Bullshido.com (http://www.bullshido.us) that basically shows all this so called martial arts that are really just a waste of cash.

At least the above (Royal mounted spetsnaz) was a joke ....but sadly the rest listed in the website are not ....ranging from styles like ZuJitsu (zujitsu is, allegedly, African Zulu tribe jujitsu) and Magic-Fu to more traditional styles like Karate and TaeKwonDo that are basically crap!

And to those who have taken TKD and Karate and think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread just know i had taken Shotokan Karate for a long time before i switched to real combative styles (i will explain the concept in a moment) and traditional martial arts are just nice if you want to show off flowery kicks.

Real combative styles include such as Jeet kune do, Krav maga, combat sambo and muay thai (i have taken Jeet kune do and Krav maga). Those are styles meant for actual combat not wearing silly colored belts and making funny sounds in your larynx!

Karate and Taekwondo are only effective if you are facing a person who is not that skilled. However if you meet anyone who is skilled then your @$$ is grass (woe unto you if you face a grappler like a brazilian jujitsu fella, or if you face a stand-up fighter like a jeet kune do specialist).

When i first went to college i met this dude who was punching some bag in the hallway, and who claimed he used to be in the army, and was training in something called 'American karate' (the moment i heard that i started chuckling really hard). I asked him what was his impetus for punching the poor bag every evening (he had been doing that with unabated dedication) and the dude told me he was training to participate in some no-holds barred competition.

Well, i politely asked the guy if i could watch him train, and he obviously (trying to show off) said yep! He even offered to 'spar' (again i chuckled since in Jeetkunedo and kravM there is no 'sparring' just real-life full-speed hits) against me. Since he was much bigger , and heavier, than i was (he was 6'3 and quite heavy set while i was 5'11 and rather feminine looking ...which seems to work with the ladies but does not make me look very combat capable LOL) he probably thought he could lick me in a jiffy! I decided to indulge the fella, and basically mopped the floor with him (he was complaining that i was using 'unfair moves' like moving too fast and striking repeatedly).

That guy was basically pathetic, and all his belts did not enable him to even land one baby-punch or one sissy-kick (anyways i have seen in the US 8 yr olds literally having black belts ...literally). I guess the dude must have got his belt in the 6th grade!

Last i heard the dude had gone back to active service and being sent to Okinawa, and that he planned to enter some no-hold's barred contest there. Which in my opinion is not wise because even though the premier style in Okinawa is karate Okinawans do not hand out black belts unless someone deserves it. Hence dude will not be facing folks who got belts before they hit puberty but seasoned oafs who have calluses the size of texas and no sense of humor!

And to think the poor fella got married some months before he shipped off! If he could not even hit me with a single punch how does he intend to compete with 250 pound fellas who have been kicking tree-trunks since they could stand and have extremely sour personalities! And he will engage them in a no-holds barred match ....unregulated and unsupervised ....and against people who do not know what 'sparring' and 'gentlemanly behavior' is! Unless in Okinawan no-holds barred fights they allow M-16A2s that guy will be messed up (deaths only happen in movies ....but broken ribs from a vale tudo kick or a hyper-extended knee and some torn ligaments from a sambo lock or a mangled nose from a thai facial elbow strike are quite common). He will get a personal intro to the school of hard knocks!

1 posted on 02/07/2003 1:56:10 AM PST by spetznaz
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To: mvpel; Sparta; VaBthang4; afraidfortherepublic; swarthyguy; weikel
Ping + Barf alert.

Royal Canadian Mounted Spetznaz martial art (not real, obviosuly, but quite funny)

2 posted on 02/07/2003 1:58:59 AM PST by spetznaz (Never corner a venomous serpent ....unless you mean to kill it.)
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To: spetznaz
Anthem of the Royal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen

Our country reeks of trees
Our yaks are really large
And they smell like rotting beef carcasses
And we have to clean up after them
And our saddle sores are the best
We proudly wear women's clothing
And searing sands blow up our skirts
And the Buzzards, they soar overhead
And poisonous snakes will devour us whole
Our bones will bleach in the sun.
And we will probably go to hell
And that is our great reward.
For being the Royal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen!
3 posted on 02/07/2003 2:45:11 AM PST by arielb
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To: spetznaz
My Okinawan story has one amazing element. During one of my lessons the master of our style visited, he was a little hundred pound man. I was going through a kata movement, basically your elbow rests on your fist in front of your body. The movement involves a block right, block left, then a backfist to the face from this position.

He stop me after seeing my sad attempts to preform the movement (I didn't realize how sad they were at the time, afterall I been practicing the style for a couple of years). He demostrated the movement. This happen over 20 years ago and is still fresh in my mind. His fist first started shaking, then lashed in both directions at blinding speed, then shot forward with amazing force. He put both hands to his side, bowed, and said in broken english, "Fights over." There was never any doubt that the person on the recieving end of that backfist was not dead.

As a sidenote, I was never allow during the few tournaments we attended to strike, only block. It was kinda funny, I would block so hard out of frustration that soon my opponents would quite throwing punches and kicks.
4 posted on 02/07/2003 3:44:16 AM PST by BushCountry
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To: arielb
I have a pristine, unpunched-in-the-box, Log game. It's one of my most prized possessions. ;-)

Back on-topic, I must admit I get a chuckle from the "martial arts system" ads in Soldier of Fortune.
5 posted on 02/07/2003 3:54:00 AM PST by FreedomPoster (This space intentionally blank)
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To: spetznaz
I came to the conclusion watching the No-holds-barred conpetitions (UFC,etc) that the best type of dicipline to learn is a grappling technique. In just about every fight they had the advantage. And it makes sense if you think back to any fight you may have been involved in or seen, a punch or two gets thrown and then you're rolling around on the ground. If you know a few joint locks, it ends the fight very quickly.
6 posted on 02/07/2003 8:17:15 AM PST by TomB
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To: TomB
I've always thought of conventional martial arts training as a worthwhile way to learn how to look good while getting your clocked cleaned by a seasoned street fighter.
7 posted on 02/07/2003 8:23:32 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: spetznaz
Shrug.

Since most people don't want to learn to fight really, many commercial schools teach them pretty things and get them in shape, so at least they can run from wheezy thugs. :)

OTOH, a serious teacher and serious student produce a real fighter, whether it's 'traditional' like Karate or western boxing, newer stuff like JKD or Krav Maga, or even things that are 99% fluff in the U.S. like Tai Chi.

"Sparring"/Full-speed: I like to hear people talk about how they train full power full speed. Yes, I bet your first day in Krav Maga the instructor said, "here, let me show you something, punch me" and proceeded to break your arm? Mm, maybe not. In Kali stick training do you break the other guy's hand? No, you hit the other guy's stick, but you know on the street you will actually hit the other guy's hand when blocking. Some schools don't spar until students develop sufficient control and show maturity; others spar earlier; and if they use pads, it's to allow some power while minimizing injury (ya know, those things that slow down training). Even the Dog Bros. wear fencing masks and so forth.

UFC: Yep, if I'm ever stuck in an octagon with no exits in a one-on-one fight, I'll probably end up grappling :) Otherwise it's probably good to remain standing, since if I take the time to roll around on the ground to hit thug 1, thug 2 is probably tapping on my head with a stick. Failing to learn grappling, in any style, is a mistake though; the ground exists.

There are some very silly things out there though; one place I saw advertised themselves as "Wang Chun Kung Fu is Atlantean Temple Dance!"

Anyway the upshot is that just because one person failed to become a fighter though Karate that Karate is BS. Heck, "spetznaz", you yourself pointed out the serious Karate types in Okinawa are not fluff!

For the record, since you will probably ask, I'm in Tang Soo Do currently, with prior training in JKD, Kali, Thai boxing, and many years of fencing. Glock-jutsu still has more street applicability, though :)



8 posted on 02/07/2003 9:39:25 AM PST by No.6
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To: spetznaz
Good commentary on MA vs. self-defense.

I concur with your comments regarding TKD. After several years of study, I was within 6 mos. of taking my black belt test when the school closed. I have wanted to pick up MA again but so far I haven't had the time.

When I do get back into MA, I won't bother with TKD and Karate, for the reasons you stated above. What's your opinion on the best all-around self-defense MA? I am familiar with Krav Maga but from what little I know about it, it looks like you could easily go lethal with some of the more popular moves (for example, strikes to the throat). In most states, unless you can prove that your life is in imminent danger, you cannot use lethal force against an opponent. Going up against an unarmed guy in a bar, you having been trained in a lethal form of self-defense, could get you some hard time under alot of state laws.

JKD looks interesting but doesn't it take alot of study to become more dangerous to the other person than to yourself?

I would be interested in your comments on this subject.

9 posted on 02/07/2003 10:11:09 AM PST by webstersII
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To: webstersII
If your goal is to be able to defend yourself in the shortest training time, I would recommend Krav Maga.

JKD is not IMO 'a style' but a philosophy of thinking; although you can certainly train the same arts Lee did (Wing Chun, Filipino stick fighting, boxing) and call it JKD.

The JKD school I was at (before changing states) taught Wing Chun, Thai boxing, Filipino sticks, and western boxing. YMMV.

10 posted on 02/07/2003 10:54:52 AM PST by No.6
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To: spetznaz
Krav Maga bump! I'm a current student and I love it :)
11 posted on 02/07/2003 11:38:14 AM PST by Britton J Wingfield
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To: TomB
Watch some more recent UFC fights. Gracie kicked all the striker's butts early on, because they had not encountered grappling before and they didn't know how to counter it. Now almost anyone fighting will be proficient at both, or at least know how to counter a grappler. Bas Rutten, for example, won mostly by striking (palm-heels, too), but trained enough as a grappler to avoid getting choked out right off the bat.

It's true that most fights do end up on the ground, but the smart thing is to keep that from happening in the first place.
12 posted on 02/07/2003 11:46:40 AM PST by Britton J Wingfield
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To: webstersII
could easily go lethal with some of the more popular moves (for example, strikes to the throat

Just don't strike there. KM basically teaches you to hit whatever is open, and rarely requires hitting a particular target in a given situation. If you can hit someone in the throat you should also have no problem hitting them in the chin or nose, preferably with the heel of your hand.

You may be able to find KM instructional tapes at your local library, and there is a good forum at kravmaga.com

13 posted on 02/07/2003 11:53:41 AM PST by Britton J Wingfield
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To: TomB; Britton J Wingfield; No.6; BushCountry; webstersII
Grappling is the best form of fighting for a UFC style competition but in a real life situation it can be extremely detrimental to your health! The thing is in the UFC the space is so limited people will go into a clinch almost immediately, and from there it is simple to throw someone or 'shoot' at someone and take them down to the ground. And once on the ground obviously the grappler has the advantage.

And if you look at the early UFC matches grapplers virtually won everything ....it was only later that stand-up fighters started learning the guard position, and with just that one move they proceded to whoop the @$$e$ of grapplers.

In a real life situation going to the ground when you are facing 2 people means you will be trying to put a naked-choke on one ....but the other is standing behind you kicking your @$$. There is one story about two of the Gracie brothers (the best exponents of Brazilian jujitsu) who got into a street fight and got their butts handed to them. Going to the ground is nice if you are facing one person.

I myself was in some street fights back 'home' and in all of them but one i managed to take care of things standing up. And it was always against TKD folks so it was prety simple. The one exception was against this dude who managed to take me to the ground, but i knew some basic judo (i have concentrated on Jeetkunedo, kravmaga and did Shotokan ....but i have some basic knowledge of arnis and judo). That basic judo i had learned was enough to enable me to get into the guard position (he wasmuch stronger than i was and using brute force), wrap my legs around his neck, and basically choke him while lying on my back.

My personal thoughts is that the best thing to do is to know stand-up fighting (for real life), but at the same time know sufficient ground-work because there is a chance you may go to the ground.

Concentrating on just ground stuff (Braz. jujutsu, Japanese Jujitsu, Judo etc) can be a tad bit detrimental to your physical wellbeing if you face 2 people. However knowing them will enable you to take care of any ground situations (with my basic judo stuff i managed to basically toy with the dude even though he was by far stronger and heftier than i was ....and as i mentioned before i am not a paragon of the Mr. Universe contest). However knowing a couple of joint locks and chokes was sufficient.

As for the stand-up arts i would say Krav maga and jeet kune do are the best i personally have experienced. The only problem (as someone mentioned) is that the stuff taught can get you in legal trouble. Actually the reason i took some judo was because i knew if i went out with some friends and they started fighting i could not do anything with krav maga to stop the fight (pushing a pal's nasal bone into their cranium is not a good thing). As in Krav maga is good for a brawl ...but what if your drunk friend rushes your other drunk friend!

As for the traditional martial arts (TKD, Karate, gungfu) they are nice .....if you advance far enough and are mature enough to know that trying an ax kick on the street will get you hurt! Their problem is that they spend so much time on flowery stuff that looks nice in the Dojo (or Dojang) but on the street has zero efficacy!

Compare for example Muay Thai and Tae Kwon Do. Both are kicking styles known for great kick attacks ....but match a Muay Thai guy against a TKD person of the same skill and i can bet everytime the TKD guy will lose (and lose big). The thing is Muay Thai is by far more realistic than TKD, their kicks are meant to hurt (for what i mean compare a Muay Thai match ....which is full contact with teeth and blood flying around and most victories by knock-outs .....to a TKD contest which is basically point-sparring where the judges look for technical exponence). They are both kicking styles ....but in the street Muay Thai still retains its credibility.

Another example is Kyukoshin Karate (which is full contact and brutal) and most traditional styles of Karate (goju, shoto, etc) Your average Kyukoshin exponent is a guy who can wreak damage in the ring and in the streets! Someone who has been taking Kyukoshin for just one year, and taking it regularly and diligently, can beat the heck out of many people. In traditional systems you have t take them for a long time to get really skilled. True, after a year you can do nice kicks and pack power .....but you also spend a lot of time doing katas and all that stuff.

When i left shotokan i had a ni-dan (2nd degree black belt) after spending years in the art (i started in 3 grade and stopped when i was 19). However when i started jeet kune do (around 18) in a year i had learnt more street stuff than all those years in Shoto! And in Krav Maga it was the same.

And do not get me wrong ....Shoto and TKD is not nonsense. I know some Shoto people i would not dare mess with .....those guys are monsters (Shotokan karate is a 'hard' style of Karate that uses a lot of power in the strikes, and those guys are huge behemoths). However those guys are all 3rd degrees or higher (and from outside the US .....hence they did not start getting black belts in grade school as is apparently common here) I know i am fast, and that is one of my greatest strengths since i need the speed, but tangling with those guys and getting a single punch would probably mess me up considerably! However getting into a fight with 3rd degree Gojuryu or 4th degree ITF TKD folks is virtually impossible. By the way it is in such levels they start learning the real martial art ....in that 1st degree black is when you start learning the 'real' karate and its self-defense applications (and that is why i would not tangle with the 3rd degree folks from back home). However here i ahve met kids who are black belts and cannot even keep the local bully from stealing their lunch money .....and i wonder! Is their sifu/soke/teacher etc really legit? How do you give someone who has not even started middle school a black belt and have a clear conscience?

Anyways a 2 year student in Krav Maga would probaly beat a 6 year pure TKD fellow

14 posted on 02/07/2003 12:11:00 PM PST by spetznaz
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To: spetznaz
Not familiar with Krav Maga, but totally agree with your assessment over TKD. I studied something called R.B.W.I. (Robert Bussey's Warrior International) when I was in college and law school in Omaha, NE. It basically is Americanized ninjutsu - Mr. Bussey traveled around Japan and Asia for a few years the same time as Stephen Hayes. When he got back to America and tried teaching the traditional style, he realized one would get their butt kicked. So he incorporated a lot of "street" techniques, including ground fighting. Probably very similar to your art.

We used to get black belts from other arts coming in, and they'd get their butts kicked by lower ranks all the time - all the skill, but no idea how to fight. Someone once criticized R.B.W.I. as "teaching Shakespeare to a 1st grader", in that virtually all of the combat techniques taught to a black belt are taught to a new-comer; it's just the speed, power, and application that moves you up the ranks.

A former instructor of mine, Steve Jennum, won UFC III, I believe. He's famous, or, rather, infamous, for coming in at the last fight due to injury of another contestant and winning. The next year, I believe he lost his first match. Oh well - I wouldn't mess with him.

15 posted on 02/07/2003 12:27:03 PM PST by GreatOne
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To: spetznaz
Not familiar with Krav Maga, but I agree that most of the quote unquote "martial arts" taught in America is fluff. I studied a true martial art called BANDO for a few years. Bando comes from the Ghurka Soldiers of Nepal (who happen to be employed as bodygaurds for a lot of leaders) and involves weapons training and such including the Kukri knife which is basically designed to behead your opponet. Our instructors explained the difference between martial art and self defense and it is immense. Essentailly though, Bando is a mix of the most effective techniques from all of the martial arts and it's practical, not "showy". At any rate, that's my vote. p.s. no bando the camero jokes.
16 posted on 02/07/2003 12:42:26 PM PST by labowski
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To: spetznaz
As for the traditional martial arts (TKD, Karate, gungfu) they are nice .....if you advance far enough and are mature enough to know that trying an ax kick on the street will get you hurt! Their problem is that they spend so much time on flowery stuff that looks nice in the Dojo (or Dojang) but on the street has zero efficacy!

On the whole, I think you are correct. Every system has its limitations. Some TKD schools try to incorporate grappling techniques. A mature student (of any martial art) should know the limitations of his art.

(I have studied TKD for many years, and in my worst nightmares I never contemplated using an axe kick in a street fight!)

You are also right about "belt inflation." Many schools routinely promote students up the belts -regardless of how (un)ready they are because they feel that the students (or their parents) won't pay for the instruction unless there is regular promotion.

I'm grateful my school is not like that.
17 posted on 02/07/2003 2:42:09 PM PST by eddiespaghetti
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To: spetznaz
To your further comments:

Grappling/street: agreed.

Krav Maga: Heh, I didn't know KM skipped non-lethal alternatives to their techniques? Interesting. I hope you refrain from putting other people's noses into their brains even if they're not your friends if there's any alternative :)

TKD/Thai: counter-example being Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. Agreed about point sparring, TKD being largely the sport version of Korean MA.

Karate: I'm not familiar with every variant style, but I suspect there is more difference between instructors of the same style than there is between different denominations of Karate.

Also remember kids' MA classes just aren't going to have adult-level training.

But you did hit the two key points:

1. Commercial schools have to keep their customers happy and their bills paid, so some promote when they shouldn't.
and
2. Martial arts are more than just beat-up schools; which makes stuff like kata worthwhile if your goals reach further than street fighting, and worthless if not.



18 posted on 02/07/2003 3:33:27 PM PST by No.6
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To: No.6; TomB; Britton J Wingfield; BushCountry; webstersII; Stavka2; Sparta
I think your post had perfect eloquence (and quite succinct .....personally one of my problems is that if i can write it in 10 paragraphs instead of 1 sentence i will use the 10 paragraphs LOL).

I guess it boils down to what the person wants .....and obviously there are many who do not want a combative style. Some want an artistic form of physical expression (which is why they would take things like Wushu), others want a way to esoteric health (hence Taichi and Pakua ....although unknown to most Westerners Taichi used to be one of the most effective combat styles ....but in the west it is basically old Chinese folk doing it slowly in the park) , and some may want something that unites personal expression with self-defense (Karate, gung fu, TKD ...although again there is a tendency to just focus on Katas in the west ......when elsewhere they explain what the kata is and how it can be used pragmatically).

Then there are martial arts that are meant for self-defense. Examples are jeet kune do, combat sambo and Muay Thai (i know muay thai has a lot of competition, but it is easily applied to the street as has been proven many times).

And then there are what i call 'offense' styles. A good example is krav maga ....which although marketed as a 'self-defense' style is actually an overt offense system created by the Israeli special forces to best be able to kill or maim quickly. I do not know how Krav maga in the US is taught (i did not take mine here but in Kenya, which has a good number of Israelis) ..but back 'home' the techniques i was taught were such that i could not use them unless i really had to. And not just unarmed stuff but also interesting titbits like carrying a credit card that was sharpened on one edge, and how to effectively use it to rip someone's throat to shreds!

Anyways Krav Maga is a great art, and it is extremely applicable for self defense, however if what someone wants is 'self expression' then they better look at Ving Tsun or wushu! If they want 'health and balance' then Pakuachang or Taichichuan would be great (although again i reiterate in China a Taichi exponent learns both soft and hard styles ....and Taichi hard style looks exactly like gung fu hard styles .....the best example of real taichi is Goju-ryu karate which also has soft and hard aspects). If someone wants balance take karate or TKD (but ensure you have a teacher who wants to teach you and not just take your cash). Self-defense think JKD or Krav maga (and if you have little time take Krav because in a month you will have learnt a lot).

As for grappling it is important and should be added to every regimen (especially the self-defnse/offense arts) ...but by itself it is only good for competition because if your strategy on the streets is to immediately go into the guard position, and there are 2 sots heading towards you with malicious grins, then chances are your mug will be pretty messed up! Grappling is nice to know because you must know what to do if you end up on the ground, but you better know something else for stand up. However if all you want to do is compete then by all means take judo or jujitsu solo (actually some highschool students study jujitsu, and then go into school wrestling matches as 'wrestlers' and beat the heck out of the wrestlers).

I guess the important thing is to take what you want ...and to know what you want. Otherwise a person may end up taking Taichi (american version) when they should be taking muay thai!

19 posted on 02/07/2003 3:55:55 PM PST by spetznaz (my foot can travel faster than your mind!)
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To: No.6
As for Bill Wallace his success came from the same reason he was called superfoot. That guy's left (or is it right ....i know he only used one foot for kicking) foot was just super-fast .....and even though his opponents knew he would use that particular foot there was still nothing they could do to stop him from knocking them out.

And i think he is/was a great fighter.

However i would like to see him in his prime (around 1.5/2 decades ago) face a current Kyukoshin exponent (or a current muay thai dude). Basically it is my personal opinion that the greats of yesteryear (eg superfoot, Chuck norris etc) would really not do that well today. For example i have seen past fights of Norris (in the 70s when he was unbeaten and was a competitor) and to be honest he is much faster and seemingly much better nowadays (when he is a 50+ actor well past his prime). I think the key factor is cross-training ...i believe in the 70s he used to take Tang soo do but then years later started adding new stuff.

Superfoot would also be still a great fast fighter ....but if you matched him (assuming you could take him to his prime) against a current Kyushikai fighter i think Superfoot for all his speed would eat dirt.

Nowadays virtually every martial art is totally different from what it was 2 decades ago. Some are better, many are worse ...but virtually all have changed.

20 posted on 02/07/2003 4:04:13 PM PST by spetznaz (my foot can travel faster than your mind!)
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To: spetznaz
bump for teppo-jutsu ....
21 posted on 02/07/2003 4:05:09 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Chance favors the prepared mind.)
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To: spetznaz
(Pushing a pal's nasal bone into their cranium is not a good thing)

Hate to break it to you but that is a fairytale. Study Fairbairn. It is battle proven.

Happy trails.

22 posted on 02/07/2003 4:51:53 PM PST by Aura Of The Blade
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To: spetznaz
I am thinking of studying batto-do.
23 posted on 02/07/2003 4:55:19 PM PST by Poohbah (Beware the fury of a patient man -- John Dryden)
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To: Aura Of The Blade
I once did it and the sucker dropped to the floor writhing in pain ...and it was not even a hard strike. It works.
24 posted on 02/07/2003 5:01:23 PM PST by spetznaz (my foot can travel faster than your mind!)
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To: spetznaz
Anyways Krav Maga is a great art, and it is extremely applicable for self defense, however if what someone wants is 'self expression' then they better look at Ving Tsun or wushu!

I am looking into KM now, although I have some physical issues (bypass surgery 2 years ago- ribcage opened from top to bottom). I am willing to accept tough training sessions- so I am looking for an instructor now to discuss these with.

I am interested in a no-BS, no frills, effective form for serious defense, to build upon what I learned in the Corps.

25 posted on 02/07/2003 5:08:24 PM PST by Riley
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To: RaceBannon
Comments?
26 posted on 02/07/2003 5:23:41 PM PST by OKSooner
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To: Riley; Britton J Wingfield
The good thing Riley about KM is that you do not have to possess the physique of a 19 yr old Olympian athlete to do it. Its moves are 100% pragmatic and hence they have no frills and stunts. It is basically pure self-defence and no B.S.

Hence i think it would be a great choice for you.

Maybe Britton J Wingfield may tell you of his own experience.

27 posted on 02/07/2003 5:58:01 PM PST by spetznaz (my foot can travel faster than your mind!)
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To: spetznaz
There is much fraud in the martial arts industry. Many onwers of martial arts schools claim to be something they're not. For example, the head instructor of a kenpo school in my town is only a brown belt. He was instantly promoted to master when he assumed full ownership of the dojo after the originial owners of the school decided to retire.
28 posted on 02/07/2003 8:07:16 PM PST by Kuksool (Fight The Axis of Evil: ACLU, NEA, & NOW)
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To: spetznaz; All
Hey, everyone, thanks for all the info! As someone said, the martial arts have change quite a bit in a relatively short time (considering how old the basic arts are).

I will look further into KM and JKD, plus maybe a bit of jujitsu. It will be fun, at any rate. webstersII

29 posted on 02/07/2003 8:16:02 PM PST by webstersII
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To: webstersII; spetznaz; All
web, if you're looking for something for "fun", I suggest a good cardio kick-boxing class.
If you're looking for something for practical purposes, visit a few different schools and watch several classes. They shouldn't have a problem with that.
Look at what is taught, and just as importantly, HOW it is presented. And talk to some of the students.
Usually, a good Muay Thai school will provide both fun and practical application.

Spetz, re: your tagline -

(your tongue can move faster than your brain!)

30 posted on 02/07/2003 8:29:46 PM PST by dogbrain
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To: dogbrain
Please explain why
31 posted on 02/07/2003 8:48:35 PM PST by spetznaz (Huh?)
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To: No.6
UR#8)...............bttt!

The 'secret' Secret of Karate!
(NEVER use an empty hand!)

:-)

32 posted on 02/07/2003 8:54:04 PM PST by maestro
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To: OKSooner
many points are being left out here, it is not the man in the fight, it is the fight in the man.

As a bouncer, I faced mostly drunks, no real fighters. Stand-up fights were rare, but the traditional fighting training styles (Kempo; Shotokan; TKD) all came into play for having the precense of mind to step aside or block, but the real problem was solved when you stepped in and gave the guy one whether he got one in on you or not.

As for Muy Thai being a better fighting style, that depends on whether the TKD guy trains to fight for real or for tournement. Muy Thai fights for real all the time, while TKD is the new 'Gentleman's Martial Art' sport style, not done for fighting, really, but if youknow how to kick, and a decnt TKD guy does, if he has heart, I would place even money on the guy. Again, that is because the Muy Thai guy trains for battle, not tournement. If the TKD guy trainsed like his front teeth depended on it, he would do well against a Muy Thai guy.

My times in the bars fighting was doen from a standing start, to a grapple take out, and the occasional takedown, wrestle for top position, then a hair grab out the door with an arm bar.

I was especially impressed with Hapkido and the joint lock techniques, all the punches and kicks of TKD with all the techniques of Juijitsu added in, just when were you supposed to master all this?? :)

I disagree that a TKD practitioner aint good enough to fight most stand-up fighters because of 'flashy kicks'. I know some guys that blew the roofs off the Karate guys, whether Shotokan or Kenpo or Kempo or whatever, it depends on the school and the individual. I know guys that threw kicks faster than 99% of any punches I ever saw thrown, and with great accuracy, too. And I did some boxing for a while, too, these TKD kickers were fast, it is just the 'style' that TKD has become, a sport, not a combat art intraining.

If the training of the student is centered on fighting and genuine self defense, TKD is awsome for kicking and punching, but if the instructer is concerned in having a 'family martial arts center', then you aint gonna get that!

If I could only change the mental aspect of what I have learned in TKD, I would gladly face a Muy Thai guy in the ring, (back in the day, anyways!) The difference is in HOW you are trained to fight, not how you are trained to throw punches and kicks.

A good, trained martial artist that knows how to throw a good punch, block correctly, and kick, can be a superior fighter only if he has the heart to be so, not dependant onthe style he was trained in. For standup fighting, TKD is an excellent system. Tai Chi has some great counters to it! And, Hapkido adds the all-round joint locking and takedowns.

All that being said, the ground fight IS where almost all of it ends up! The ultimate fighting I have seen, not too many by the way, has been to rules. A street fight would not go on as long.

There is no way I could beat any of the Gracies now, nor back then, either, but I did used tobelieve I could have held my own against Bad Brad Hefton...back in the day, that is... :)
33 posted on 02/07/2003 8:54:06 PM PST by RaceBannon
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To: spetznaz
Spetz,
Just wondering if you meant, "Action beats reaction."
34 posted on 02/07/2003 9:01:14 PM PST by dogbrain (...maybe "shield" isn't quite the correct word for them.....)
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To: Riley
KM is very physical, but you can easily train within your own limits. There is a emphasis on training while under lots of physical and mental stress, so we usually do a fairly intense warmup every training session. Some people skip the warmup due to health limitations.

Training itself involves a lot of partner work with kick/punch shields, muay thai pads, and focus mitts. It's actually harder to be the guy with the pads than the guy doing the punching. One common exercise consists of running or walking at your partner, who then has to stop you with a front kick. You soak up a lot of blows in training. I'm just getting into higher level stuff where we use more full-force, and always wear a mouthpiece.

The combatives are somewhat similar to muay thai, or Col. Fairbairn's American Combatives. Since it focuses more on gross motor skill than fine, hammer-fists and palm-heel strikes are common. Kicks are a lot like muay thai. Head-butting is common, though it's emphasized more in Israel than the US. A lot of KM is similar to what my dad learned in the Marine Corps back in the 40s, come to think of it.

It's very aggressive. You fend off the immediate threat (break the choke, block the punch, whatever) and immediately counter-attack. Ideally you never just block, but always counter-punch. Ground fighting has some grappling, but it's always better to kick someone in the head than get him in an arm-bar. We try to stay vertical, and if not then get it over and get back up asap.

Call the local KM school and ask if you can try a class. The one here in Phoenix charges $20 for a trial class, and refunded me when I started with the school. They prbably chareg the fee to keep the classes from being clogged with one-timers.

Also, there are instructional videos. Your local library may have them, and there is one book on the subject. I found it at Borders last week myself.

They encourage us to spar with boxing or muay thai kickboxing, just to get used to being in an actual fight. It's not required, but IMHO it is vital to be able to take a punch and not flinch. Years ago I studied kenpo and boxing at a very good dojo, and the boxing did me more good, since it involved actually trading real punches.
35 posted on 02/07/2003 11:31:30 PM PST by Britton J Wingfield
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To: Britton J Wingfield
Outstanding! Just the information that I was looking for. I should probably hold off until the Tendonitis in my left arm goes away, so as not to waste their time and mine.

I'll put in some long, fast cardio-walking until then.

Thanks!
36 posted on 02/07/2003 11:38:45 PM PST by Riley
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To: spetznaz
When I took a martial arts class in college, there was no "sparring," since we were taught to go remove one of our opponent's eyes as the move to follow blocking a punch, etc. If missing eyeballs and crushed tracheas are part of the first three seconds of a fight, there really isn't much of interest that follows.
37 posted on 02/08/2003 4:44:12 AM PST by eno_
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To: spetznaz
When you deal with the RCMP it is sometimes difficult to know what is real and what is humor. They used to produce a show in BC called "Tales From the RCMP" or something like that. It was a Canadian version of Cops.

The wife and I don't watch much TV but we watched that show every week...it was the funniest thing we had ever seen. Mounties (at least in BC) must stop at all traffic lights and stop signs while in high speed pursuit. The criminal doesn't which makes watching it hillarious to watch.

Canada finally got so offended by the humor with which the show was being received in America that they pulled it (at least in our area).

38 posted on 02/08/2003 4:55:23 AM PST by CWOJackson
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To: No.6; All
For the record, since you will probably ask, I'm in Tang Soo Do currently, with prior training in JKD, Kali, Thai boxing, and many years of fencing. Glock-jutsu still has more street applicability, though :)

What is your opinion about getting black belt in JKD and after that learning Aikido from good teachers? Is it a good combination?

39 posted on 02/08/2003 5:05:45 AM PST by A. Pole
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To: Riley
"I should probably hold off until the Tendonitis in my left arm goes away, so as not to waste their time and mine."

YOU TOO? I have had Aikido caused "tennis elbow" for about four months. Doc says to stop Aikido which I will not do, because not only is it superb cardio exercise, I have actually used it and find it works very well. It has made me much calmer, too. LOL

Since I teach in an inner city high school, it is helpful to know something that does not require some form of punch or kick which school liberals...ahhhhh I mean OFFICIALS would consider an unacceptable use of force even while exercising lawful right of self defense....teachers get assaulted all the time.

40 posted on 02/08/2003 8:10:13 AM PST by ExSoldier
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To: ExSoldier
YOU TOO?

I have inflamed tendons in the top of the forearm and something going on with the elbow as well. I almost can't use the darn thing.

Tendonitis takes a long time to go away. I had to break up a domestic violence incident the other day. Fortunately, I didn't need to try to use the left arm.

41 posted on 02/08/2003 8:26:35 AM PST by Riley
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To: eno_
I took a self-defense class in college and it was basically the same. Hurt 'em and run. After I hit 200 lbs, people left me alone anyway.
42 posted on 02/08/2003 8:34:57 AM PST by AppyPappy (Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.)
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To: ExSoldier; All
to an ex-soldier with the patience and courage to teach at an inner-city school, I SALUTE YOU! to the rest of the knowledgeable and experienced posters on this thread, i thank you for the informative analysis. i excel in the RITOD technique, which i got from life AND the movies. it works this way; from life: Run In The Other Direction.... and from the movies: act crazy and most of the time they'll leave you alone (i thought of this when i "sounded out" the acronym) anyway....

for your information, since i would like to give the great folks here SOMETHING back for the time spent informing me....there are a few great ways to get help for injuries, especially those not-so-niggling ones like tendonitis, hyperextension, etc. "Applied Kiniesiology" works great, and is a (relatively) gentle technique. for the "big guys", i ran across mention of the doc(s) who treated the competitors at the recent International Powerlifting Championships. you probably couldnt find better biomechanical expertise. his name is david ryan, in columbus ohio, was medical chairman for the "Arnold Fitness Weekend", and is licensed as a USA Boxing ringside physician by the ohio athletic association. there's an upcoming "Arnold Classic" at the end of february this year, in columbus, ohio....hope that's enuf info to get (and keep) you fixed up....this guy's the "real deal"....call and ask for a reference to a doc in your area. another doc i know specializes in the foot; mark charrette, (sp? sorry if there's too many r's or t's), indeed, in ALL the "extremities"....i have actually had the fortune to receive a treatment from him....so can attest to the efficacy. good luck!

john

43 posted on 02/08/2003 9:32:27 AM PST by 1john2 3and4
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To: A. Pole
What is your opinion about getting black belt in JKD and after that learning Aikido from good teachers? Is it a good combination?

I would say that's very difficult: Jeet Kune Do per se has no belts :)

If you mean 'take training in JKD &/or JKD concepts and then take Aikido' why not? The whole 'point' of JKD is that you shouldn't bind yourself to a particular set of responses, because that makes you predictable.

Ideally you should be able to hit things, trap/do joint locks, and grapple/throw. Almost any style gets around to all these things eventually, or you can take a salad bar approach if you want.

44 posted on 02/08/2003 8:54:59 PM PST by No.6
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