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Air Force imagery confirms Columbia wing damaged
Spaceflightnow.com ^ | 02/07/03 | CRAIG COVAULT

Posted on 02/07/2003 4:30:37 AM PST by The Magical Mischief Tour

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To: Doomonyou
LOL..... we rented that movie the other night. I was cracking up over that scene. I wondered at the time if someone with the movie had been reading Free Republic.
261 posted on 02/07/2003 3:11:17 PM PST by kjam22
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To: leadpenny
This is hugh.

Uh oh, after reading part of the thread, I'm afraid this may have a chance to have legs. :^)

262 posted on 02/07/2003 3:12:55 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: wirestripper
It definitely hit toward the center of the wing span, and at a relatively low speed, contrary to many. (maybe 100MPH)

I disagree completely. The shuttle was doing, what, around mach 4. That's ~3000 mph. That means the "wind" was going by at 3000 mph. The external tank is 154 ft. long so let's say the foam/ice was accelerated by this 3000 mph wind for 100 ft. It would be going much faster relative to the shuttle wing than 100 miles per hour, especially if it only weighed 2.5 lbs. and had all that surface area. Whether ice or foam, the impact would be significant. If it was ice then just a few mph would be enough to cause enough damage to bring down the shuttle. If it was foam, then the high relative speed may have been enough to cause significant damage.

263 posted on 02/07/2003 3:27:14 PM PST by #3Fan
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To: The Magical Mischief Tour
Better put this photo on this thread since it's already on another one:


264 posted on 02/07/2003 3:27:38 PM PST by Brett66
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To: snopercod
Read this first, then we'll talk:

OK, I read it, now what's your point?

265 posted on 02/07/2003 3:45:06 PM PST by Moonman62
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To: Brett66
An interesting photo, but much much over-hyped as to the detail it was going to show.

Given the angle, what appears on the lower(left) wing area could actually be underneath midship -- thinking in 3D.

266 posted on 02/07/2003 3:53:16 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: freepersup
Was that you that I wasted time debating ? Didn't I ask you to explain the smoking debris contrail ? Didn't I ask you to explain the obvious shedding of debris in the video capture ?

If you don't know who you were debating, how the heck do you expect me to know?

267 posted on 02/07/2003 3:54:59 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: spunkets
I don't think they did, they videoed the external tank falling off.
268 posted on 02/07/2003 4:52:55 PM PST by The Right Stuff
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To: Brett66
Left is symmetricl mock-up, right is their photo:


269 posted on 02/07/2003 4:54:40 PM PST by Lady Jag (Googolplex Start Thinker of the Seventh Galaxy of Light and Ingenuity)
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To: Carry_Okie
Carry_Okie says:   "FYI"

Very interesting article. Not to be too skeptical, but I'd like to see that photo first, sil vous plais, before making any judgment.

Overcoming the problems of making an optical system that could perform (as alluded to in the thread article) are daunting, to say the least. Photographing low contrast surface features on an object traveling at 12,500 mph and 200,000 feet away through a turbulent atmosphere with high resolution, is nothing short of spectacular.

Absent atmospheric affects, the absolute bare minimum resolution (the diffraction limit to the so-called "airy disk") is given as (approx.) 120/D (where D is the diameter of the telescope mirror in millimeters). And that limit is only valid when viewing high contrast objects, which definitely would not be the case here.

While it would at first appear that all you need, in order to get the needed resolution, is to increase mirror size, the atmospheric turbulence that causes "speckle", or spatial aberration, increases with mirror diameter. The result is that in mirror diameters greater than about 250 mm, any increase in resolution is offset by an increase in speckle. And thus, your theoretical resolution, under the very best circumstances, of high contrast features, 200,00 feet away, using a telescope with a 250 mm (10 inch) mirror, would be approximately 1/2 foot.

In the last 20-30 years, astronomers (and especially the military) have developed and use adaptive optical systems to over come the effects of speckle. But these systems are quite complex and require either multiple (hundreds of) identical exposures and/or a tracking laser in order to successfully overcome speckle. Whether such optical systems could have worked in the present case is just pure speculation, without seeing the actual photos that this article claims exist.

(Just guessing here, but the actual sensor to keep the tracking system pointed at the orbiter was probably radar or a transponder, rather than the more common optical sensors.)

There are other serious problems that make we wonder about the true resolution of these photos. In order to maintain such spectacular angular resolution, the tracking system (in this case) would have had to be able to track the object smoothly at tracking rates exceeding 5° per second. When trying to imagine such a tracking system, keep in mind that there is no such thing as an electrical motor that does not produce torque ripple. Torque ripple is not a big deal until you are trying to push the limits of diffraction and speckle correction.

Additionally, since the orbiter vehicle is reported to have an angle of attack of approximately 35° during re-entry, the telescope in question would have only a limited angular window during which to view the wing in a manner that would reveal the damage they reported.

Could they really have an optical system capable of such a stupendous feat and overcoming all those problems? Apparently they do, but damn, that has really got to be one hell of a state-of-the-art system and one that only the government could afford to build! I would have given my eye teeth to have been involved in the design and development of that system.

Regards,

Boot Hill

270 posted on 02/07/2003 5:18:54 PM PST by Boot Hill
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To: Carry_Okie
Look at post #269, above. It looks like I was correct about being skeptical both about the limits of resolution as well as whether they would be able to capture the low contrast features like that of the wing. The picture appears, at first glance, to be of the re-entering orbiter, but in reality, all they captured was its silhouette. And the resolution appears to be about 4-5 arc seconds (or about 4-5 feet at that altitude). Still, that is a pretty remarkable accomplishment!

Boot

271 posted on 02/07/2003 6:01:41 PM PST by Boot Hill
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To: Carry_Okie
The "camera" they used was located at the Starfire Optical Range (SOR)at Kirtland Air Force Base outside Albuquerque. Here is a photo of it:

Boot

272 posted on 02/07/2003 6:06:02 PM PST by Boot Hill
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To: Boot Hill
I wonder how they thermally stabilize the camera while in operation (I would have had put down in a pit moving the camera under the aperture, possibly floating in a pool)? Then there is the fringing from local reflections. Ouch!
273 posted on 02/07/2003 6:13:18 PM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by politics.)
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To: Moonman62
The first point is that the RSB was not even effective until well after the Columbia disintegrated.

The other points are the the normal sequencing of the RCS thrusters. Is all that beyond you?

274 posted on 02/07/2003 6:22:49 PM PST by snopercod
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To: jlogajan
I'm sorry for my stupidity, but your "debunking" link didn't seem to debunk anything. Please explain what am missing.
275 posted on 02/07/2003 6:34:46 PM PST by snopercod
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To: Carry_Okie
Carry_Okie asks:   "I wonder how they thermally stabilize the camera while in operation ?"

They don't have to thermally stabilize the system! They're the government, they can afford a mirror made of zero temp-co ZerodurTM, Cer-VitTM, or ULE. (It's just tax money, don't you know, there's always more where that came from!)

From the blurring around the orbiter tail in the photo of the silhouette, you can calculate the approximate effective shutter speed of the photo as being about 1 ms. This is a resolution limiting problem for that USAF system. IMO, they need something on the order of 1-10us and that might raise a small problem for the CCD manufacturers.

I sure hope that the low pixel resolution of the posted picture above is an artifact of the jpeg copies they made for public distribution and not an indication of the actual pixel resolution of the CCD they used.

Boot

276 posted on 02/07/2003 6:38:16 PM PST by Boot Hill
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To: Truth29
If that was the one shown on the NASA 4:30CST press conference, it was pretty blocky. It showed "something" on the left wing, but with a resolution of roughly 10', it was impossible to make it out.
277 posted on 02/07/2003 6:44:02 PM PST by snopercod
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To: Boot Hill
I'm afraid the public has seen all we're likely to see. I doubt the "Board" will reveal anything more.
278 posted on 02/07/2003 6:54:56 PM PST by DonnerT
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To: DonnerT
I respectfully disagree. I think NASA is going to be more open about what they find than you might expect.

--Boot Hill

279 posted on 02/07/2003 7:10:01 PM PST by Boot Hill
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To: kjam22
I was cracking up over that scene.

Same Here! I got a elbow in the ribs from Mrs. Doomonyou in the quiet movie theater for that outburst.

280 posted on 02/07/2003 7:32:06 PM PST by Doomonyou (Tin foil hats unite!)
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