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NATO Crisis Deepens As Meeting Is Abandoned (20 Minutes)
Ananova ^ | 2-12-2003

Posted on 02/11/2003 3:39:53 PM PST by blam

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To: MonroeDNA
Uh, France hasn't been part of NATO for some time now.
51 posted on 02/11/2003 6:49:39 PM PST by Archangelsk (There, I've stated an opinion, it goes against group think mentality, and I feel good.)
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To: P.O.E.
"If France & Germany's agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on, to h### with them"

If a mutual defence pact won't hold up, just how do these countries expect to hold together the economic regulations that are the foundation of the Euro ?

52 posted on 02/11/2003 6:49:46 PM PST by RS
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To: blam
Nato remains in crisis

Not really. We don't need the others. We'll do fine without them. I don't see any crisis.

53 posted on 02/11/2003 7:05:49 PM PST by concerned about politics (Stop supporting terrorism! Drill ANWAR!)
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To: RS
Perzackly!
54 posted on 02/11/2003 7:06:53 PM PST by P.O.E. (Liberate Iraq!)
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To: blam
""Let's expel France, Gremany, and Belgium from NATO, get out of the UN, and pull our troops from decaying Old Europe."

You got my vote."


Having spent 4 years in West Germany in the early 80's, I second this vote. Let them all eat Arab Terrorist brie cheese. Ingrates.
55 posted on 02/11/2003 7:12:46 PM PST by Beck_isright
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To: IloveLisa
Can you just imagine how mad Russia will get? Imagine bases in Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey (more bases) and the Baltic States all because they sided with France. Yup, this is going to be an interesting decade....
56 posted on 02/11/2003 7:14:02 PM PST by Beck_isright
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To: RobbyS
As far as NATO's concerned, from what I understand, that's exactly what the French are after so they can build a separate European military force.

I think you are on to something. However, they are going to find that armies cost money.

What do you mean? They've just about gotten all of Iraq's -- FOR FREE!!!!!

Heck, Saddam probably even PAID for the privilege. Who ever said the French were not shrewd businessmen?

57 posted on 02/11/2003 7:14:16 PM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Beck_isright
"Beck_isright signed up 2003-02-12.

Location: Conch Republic

How did you do that? It's still 2-11-2003. Anyway, welcome aboard.

58 posted on 02/11/2003 7:22:36 PM PST by blam
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Comment #59 Removed by Moderator

To: colorado tanker
Why else would France and Germany be willing to damage NATO and the UN to try to keep us out of Iraq. ?

Could it be a very large moslem fifth column already in place in these countries?

60 posted on 02/11/2003 7:22:58 PM PST by ol' hoghead
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To: DannyTN
Let us align ourselves with the "other" European nations, and pull our troops out of the Balkans. Let France, Germany, and Belgium handle the Balkans with their hard earned "Euro" currency. Then the newly alligned nations can take on the terrorists of the world.
61 posted on 02/11/2003 7:23:51 PM PST by stumpy
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To: uncbob; speekinout; RobbyS
They gonna get their people to give up all the socialistic goodies to pay for it

Absolutely. It is gonna cost lots of money and the goodies will have to go. It's anybody's guess how the people will react. On the other hand, it could be the fatal blow to the socialist system. Nostradamus anybody?

62 posted on 02/11/2003 7:26:13 PM PST by Elenya ( And So It Begins...)
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To: Beck_isright
Can you just imagine how mad Russia will get? Imagine bases in Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey (more bases) and the Baltic States all because they sided with France. Yup, this is going to be an interesting decade....

On the other hand, Russia may be making a cold calculated decision that France and Germany can do more for Russia economically than anything they will ever get from E. Europe, or even from the US. And there may be some truth to that.

As for military implications, E. Europe is between the rock of Russian neo-imperial revanchism and the hard place of an ambitious new Franco-German pan-europeanism. There is thus a community of interests between Russia and the Franco-German axis on the one hand, and between the US and E. Europe on the other. This goes far toward explaining why it has been the E. European countries that have been so eager to get out front and center in their support for the US.

Just looking at the map, and without reference to force structures, it would look like having E. Europe as our mainland Europe allies, sandwiched in between Russia and the Franco-German axis would not be a very favorable position from a geopolitical and logistical perspective. But stranger things have happened. It is definitely to our long term advantage to not have the Franco-German axis and Russia consolidate into one unified confederation occupying the whole of the European continent (plus Siberia). It is unlikely that such an Orwellian "Eurasia" would remain friendly to us for very long under any circumstances.

63 posted on 02/11/2003 7:26:39 PM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: calljack
NATO - UN - OPEC
Bush scores the trifecta!!

HAT TRICK !!

64 posted on 02/11/2003 7:29:29 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Chance favors the prepared mind.)
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To: IloveLisa
I believe the deal is that France is still a POLITICAL member, and gets to meet with the other heads of state, but it does not participate in the integrated military force. Unfortunately, this puts it in the position of being able to tell other people's armies what they can and cannot and must do, without being under any obligation whatsoever to put a single French soldier's life at risk.

Even if we had to accept this unacceptable arrangement when the big, bad Soviets were on our doorstep, they are now gone, and there is no reason to accept it any longer.

65 posted on 02/11/2003 7:30:51 PM PST by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Elenya
As far as NATO's concerned, from what I understand, that's exactly what the French are after so they can build a separate European military force.

With what? With all their francs tied up in social spending, the idea of building a grande armee in Europe seems a little far-fetched at this point.
66 posted on 02/11/2003 7:30:59 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: Antoninus
See #62
67 posted on 02/11/2003 7:34:53 PM PST by Elenya ( And So It Begins...)
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To: Elenya
See #62

You do know what happens in these socialist rat-holes when they try to renege on the entitlements, right? It ain't pretty...
68 posted on 02/11/2003 7:40:57 PM PST by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: jocko12
Absolutely. They are not FOR us so they must be AGAINST us, right?....and they have our equipment.
69 posted on 02/11/2003 7:46:21 PM PST by I'm ALL Right!
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: Husker24
You got it! You hit the nail on the head. That's what its all about.
71 posted on 02/11/2003 7:55:27 PM PST by Edmund Burke
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To: Antoninus
Like I said, these are very interesting times indeed. But you know what, I'd never thought Germany and France would want to revive the Holy Roman Empire either. And yet...

It seems we're witnessing a new instalment of the world's geopolitics. Nothing can surprise me now.

72 posted on 02/11/2003 7:56:06 PM PST by Elenya ( And So It Begins...)
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To: IloveLisa
If the Germans really wanted to get rid of them they could. They know how. They got rid of the Jews and Gypsies didn't they.
73 posted on 02/11/2003 7:58:44 PM PST by Edmund Burke
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To: MonroeDNA
The families of our military members who died saving the French from Germany, should demand our government return their bodies to American soil. It's a slap in the face to have them buried in a country who doesn't care, nor remember the sacrifice our country and those men gave.
74 posted on 02/11/2003 8:12:07 PM PST by Brytani (What Freepers will go through for a good cause!!!)
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To: Brytani
The families of our military members who died saving the French from Germany, should demand our government return their bodies to American soil.

I'm not sure what the soldiers families would think of it, and I hope I'm not offending anyone, but I always thought it should've been done years ago.

75 posted on 02/11/2003 8:20:02 PM PST by Elenya ( And So It Begins...)
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To: Elenya
The French might as well have taken a huge dump on their graves. I don't know how the families would feel about my suggestion, the families member I had in WWII either came home or died in the Pacific (two Uncles) so there isn't anyone I can really ask for first hand knowledge.

I just know, if my father/brother etc was buried in France, after giving up his life to free that ungrateful nation, I'd want them home.
76 posted on 02/11/2003 8:23:49 PM PST by Brytani (What Freepers will go through for a good cause!!!)
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To: Brytani
Agreed.
77 posted on 02/11/2003 8:30:56 PM PST by Elenya ( And So It Begins...)
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To: blam
Remove our troops from Germany and France and send them to help the Turks.

Afterwards, forge a new "NATO" but subtract France, Germany and Belgium.

78 posted on 02/11/2003 8:35:20 PM PST by The Toad
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To: blam
I hate those NATO NAZIS !
79 posted on 02/11/2003 8:36:21 PM PST by timestax
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To: Brytani
France did the Eschelon investigation to expose it, not in stride of a NATO intelligence gathering goal of monitoring all communications.

Not that anyone loves big brother, but we all ought to have a mutual shared security interest in gathering capabilities.

France is running scared, pure and simple doesn't want to be subject to Sadams Euro range weapons.

This sends a message to Turkey NATO is wishy washy on support.

However, US resolve strong!

The French have lost all saving face now and are traitors to the spirit of the NATO alliance.



Germans still probably aren't ready to get involved, as too many people still fear Germany, does Europe really want Germany involved?

Germany has an oportunity to be a world player again, France is out.
80 posted on 02/11/2003 8:36:28 PM PST by Soul Citizen
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To: blam
Nato's infighting also casts doubt on the future of an alliance, which has spent the past years seeking to reinvent itself as a force to confront terrorism and rogue states.

And reinvent itself by helping billdo clintoon wag the dog, away from his "wimmim" problems!

81 posted on 02/11/2003 8:38:43 PM PST by timestax
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To: timestax
And reinvent itself by helping billdo clintoon wag the dog, away from his "wimmim" problems!

Yep. Let's not forget about that.

82 posted on 02/11/2003 8:43:01 PM PST by Elenya ( And So It Begins...)
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To: Elenya
Likely a slow process of decay as Sweden has decayed.
83 posted on 02/11/2003 9:22:32 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: dfwgator
Hell yes! I've already seen Germany, I haven't been to Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, or the Czech republic yet! Time to update NATO with some new countries for me to get some paid vacation in.
84 posted on 02/11/2003 9:28:51 PM PST by Tailback
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To: Tailback
I am so looking forward to one day visiting Eastern Europe. There are some beautiful parts of Poland, especially in the Tatry Mountain region, and Prague looks like a very beautiful city.
85 posted on 02/11/2003 9:31:52 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
Heck, why don't we put a Joint US/Russian airbase in Russia for training purposes and a large Mechanized warfare training base for joint training with US and Russian forces without the stupid environmental restrictions of the US. Both would pour US dollars into the local economies, and provide needed training to the Russians who will need it if the Chinese ever get frisky. An added bonus is the proximity to the Middle East.
86 posted on 02/11/2003 9:37:20 PM PST by Tailback
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To: dfwgator
I've got relatives living (teaching English actually) in Slovakia. My wife and I have wanted to visit for years. I would volunteer for a 6 month active duty hitch in a heartbeat to get in that area.
87 posted on 02/11/2003 9:39:36 PM PST by Tailback
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To: colorado tanker
Just wait until the 82nd Airborne captures those WMD sites, and finds all those technical manuals in French and German!
88 posted on 02/11/2003 9:41:20 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Archangelsk
Sorry, France is a member of Nato. They re-joined in the 90's (unfortunately). Maybe we can convince them to quit again along with Germany and Belgium....
89 posted on 02/12/2003 2:28:04 AM PST by al_again
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To: MonroeDNA
Let's expel France, Gremany, and Belgium from NATO, get out of the UN, and pull our troops from decaying Old Europe.

No. Let's expel them from EUROPE. Belgium can be the new Palestinian state.

90 posted on 02/12/2003 3:11:57 AM PST by montag813
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To: Badabing Badaboom
I think this is what China and Russia have wanted all along. Break up the only alliance that can stop them and isolate us (while the world hates us for Iraq). Watch new alliances form quickly
91 posted on 02/12/2003 3:44:13 AM PST by Milesdavislover (Portland ain't so bad!)
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To: ol' hoghead
Could it be a very large moslem fifth column already in place in these countries?

Well, there is a large muslim community in France, mostly Algerian, which partially explains their opposition, but the Gaullists have never been particularly worried about public opinion in framing policy. In Germany the muslim population is mostly Turk, which one would think would not be pleased with Germany's spurning of Turkey.

In the past these countries would tend to get out of our way in a low key way in a situation like this. This time they are noisily opposing the US which is isolating them even in Europe, which France wants to lead. I'm very suspicious that France and Germany are desperate to keep some very embarrassing secrets about Iraq and its WMD programs from coming to light.

92 posted on 02/12/2003 9:05:30 AM PST by colorado tanker (Moderators are our friends)
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To: Travis McGee
Just wait until the 82nd Airborne captures those WMD sites, and finds all those technical manuals in French and German!

We're thinking alike. Betcha there are also some money transfer records in Baghdad that would embarass those folks.

93 posted on 02/12/2003 9:07:47 AM PST by colorado tanker (Moderators are our friends)
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To: colorado tanker
I hope so.
94 posted on 02/12/2003 11:15:54 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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