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Will Spacecraft ever Go Faster than the speed of Light?
Various - See Text ^ | 16 FEB 2003 | Various

Posted on 02/16/2003 2:16:44 PM PST by vannrox

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To: MHGinTN
Thanks for the ping! Just got back after being gone 4 days. Lots to catch up on!
61 posted on 02/16/2003 5:48:12 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: luv2ndamend
The speed of light actually changes every year,IE they get a better estimation of the speed.Is this true?

False. The speed of light in a vacuum travels EXACTLY at 299,792,458 meters per second.

62 posted on 02/16/2003 5:51:34 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: boris
Boris, this will come as no surprise to you, but I believe in Angels (though I won't agape--second definition in your dictionary reference, not the first regarding 'love'-- the crowd with the 'whys' or hows). From whence come these beings? They exist (as far as I'm concerned) in a realm, a reality; what is the nature of that reality, as it differs from our reality our perception? I have a sneaking suspicion their realm differs mostly in temporal orientation rather than spatial orientation alone.
63 posted on 02/16/2003 5:55:26 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: vannrox
Did you know that Thursday was Chuck Yeager's 80th birthday?

According to chuckyeager.org, you can still send a postcard (hurry):

Send Your Postcard Greetings to:

Happy Birthday General Yeager!

C/O Chuck Yeager Fan Club,

24 Sunnyside Avenue

Mill Valley, Ca. 94941

Postcards only please.
Postcards accepted
through Feb. 20, 2003.


64 posted on 02/16/2003 5:57:59 PM PST by petuniasevan (Free Republic of Katzenellenbogen at NationStates.net)
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We humans think of ourselves as existing in the present. In actuality, we 'experience' only the past of events around us. Our existence could be in a flux state, caught between past and future, present to our existence individually but not in the background present of the whole universe.
65 posted on 02/16/2003 5:59:25 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: vannrox
Not in my life time...so my answer is no...
66 posted on 02/16/2003 6:02:30 PM PST by Hotdog
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To: vannrox
Even if it were possible to go the speed of light, the human body couldn't practically take it...It would take around 15 years accelerating with 3G's of force (which is a LOT for a constant pressure) to reach the speed of light...another 12 years to slow down...12 to speed up and 12 more to slow down on the way back...50 year minimum journey and no way to communicate with earth?..not practical...unless we find a way to freeze people and forget about them for a hundred years.
67 posted on 02/16/2003 6:06:26 PM PST by Capitalism2003
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To: MHGinTN
How did you make that little mark over the 'se'

Welcome to ASCII codes!

ISO Latin 1 Character Entities and HTML Escape Sequence Table


 #    	Symbol	HTML Code	| #    	Symbol	HTML Code
===============================================================

 32	 	 		|143		
 33	!	!		|144		
 34	"	"		|145	‘	‘
 35	#	#		|146	’	’
 36	$	$		|147	“	“
 37	%	%		|148	”	”
 38	&	&		|149	•	•
 39	'	'		|150	–	–
 40	(	(		|151	—	—
 41	)	)		|152	˜	˜
 42	*	*		|153	™	™
 43	+	+		|154	š	š
 44	,	,		|155	›	›
 45	-	-		|156	œ	œ
 46	.	.		|157		
 47	/	/		|158	ž	ž
 48	0	0		|159	Ÿ	Ÿ
 49	1	1		|160	 	 
 50	2	2		|161	¡	¡
 51	3	3		|162	¢	¢
 52	4	4		|163	£	£
 53	5	5		|164	¤	¤
 54	6	6		|165	¥	¥
 55	7	7		|166	¦	¦
 56	8	8		|167	§	§
 57	9	9		|168	¨	¨
 58	:	:		|169	©	©
 59	;	&#59;		|170	ª	ª
 60	<	&#60;		|171	«	&#171;
 61	=	&#61;		|172	¬	&#172;
 62	>	&#62;		|173	­	&#173;
 63	?	&#63;		|174	®	&#174;
 64	@	&#64;		|175	¯	&#175;
 65	A	&#65;		|176	°	&#176;
 66	B	&#66;		|177	±	&#177;
 67	C	&#67;		|178	²	&#178;
 68	D	&#68;		|179	³	&#179;
 69	E	&#69;		|180	´	&#180;
 70	F	&#70;		|181	µ	&#181;
 71	G	&#71;		|182	¶	&#182;
 72	H	&#72;		|183	·	&#183;
 73	I	&#73;		|184	¸	&#184;
 74	J	&#74;		|185	¹	&#185;
 75	K	&#75;		|186	º	&#186;
 76	L	&#76;		|187	»	&#187;
 77	M	&#77;		|188	¼	&#188;
 78	N	&#78;		|189	½	&#189;
 79	O	&#79;		|190	¾	&#190;
 80	P	&#80;		|191	¿	&#191;
 81	Q	&#81;		|192	À	&#192;
 82	R	&#82;		|193	Á	&#193;
 83	S	&#83;		|194	Â	&#194;
 84	T	&#84;		|195	Ã	&#195;
 85	U	&#85;		|196	Ä	&#196;
 86	V	&#86;		|197	Å	&#197;
 87	W	&#87;		|198	Æ	&#198;
 88	X	&#88;		|199	Ç	&#199;
 89	Y	&#89;		|200	È	&#200;
 90	Z	&#90;		|201	É	&#201;
 91	[	&#91;		|202	Ê	&#202;
 92	\	&#92;		|203	Ë	&#203;
 93	]	&#93;		|204	Ì	&#204;
 94	^	&#94;		|205	Í	&#205;
 95	_	&#95;		|206	Î	&#206;
 96	`	&#96;		|207	Ï	&#207;
 97	a	&#97;		|208	Ð	&#208;
 98	b	&#98;		|209	Ñ	&#209;
 99	c	&#99;		|210	Ò	&#210;
100	d	&#100;		|211	Ó	&#211;
101	e	&#101;		|212	Ô	&#212;
102	f	&#102;		|213	Õ	&#213;
103	g	&#103;		|214	Ö	&#214;
104	h	&#104;		|215	×	&#215;
105	i	&#105;		|216	Ø	&#216;
106	j	&#106;		|217	Ù	&#217;
107	k	&#107;		|218	Ú	&#218;
108	l	&#108;		|219	Û	&#219;
109	m	&#109;		|220	Ü	&#220;
110	n	&#110;		|221	Ý	&#221;
111	o	&#111;		|222	Þ	&#222;
112	p	&#112;		|223	ß	&#223;
113	q	&#113;		|224	à	&#224;
114	r	&#114;		|225	á	&#225;
115	s	&#115;		|226	â	&#226;
116	t	&#116;		|227	ã	&#227;
117	u	&#117;		|228	ä	&#228;
118	v	&#118;		|229	å	&#229;
119	w	&#119;		|230	æ	&#230;
120	x	&#120;		|231	ç	&#231;
121	y	&#121;		|232	è	&#232;
122	z	&#122;		|233	é	&#233;
123	{	&#123;		|234	ê	&#234;
124	|	&#124;		|235	ë	&#235;
125	}	&#125;		|236	ì	&#236;
126	~	&#126;		|237	í	&#237;
127		&#127;		|238	î	&#238;
128	€	&#128;		|239	ï	&#239;
129		&#129;		|240	ð	&#240;
130	‚	&#130;		|241	ñ	&#241;
131	ƒ	&#131;		|242	ò	&#242;
132	„	&#132;		|243	ó	&#243;
133	…	&#133;		|244	ô	&#244;
134	†	&#134;		|245	õ	&#245;
135	‡	&#135;		|246	ö	&#246;
136	ˆ	&#136;		|247	÷	&#247;
137	‰	&#137;		|248	ø	&#248;
138	Š	&#138;		|249	ù	&#249;
139	‹	&#139;		|250	ú	&#250;
140	Œ	&#140;		|251	û	&#251;
141		&#141;		|252	ü	&#252;
142	Ž	&#142;		|253	ý	&#253;
143		&#143;		|254	þ	&#254;


So you can either use the formula &#233; for é, or you can hold down the alt button and type 0233. é

68 posted on 02/16/2003 6:07:13 PM PST by petuniasevan (Free Republic of Katzenellenbogen at NationStates.net)
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To: petuniasevan
e ... &#233; blas&#233; ... see how puter challenged I is?
69 posted on 02/16/2003 6:21:12 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Try the other way. Hold down your ALT key.

Now WHILE HOLDING THE ALT KEY DOWN, type 0233.

Then release the alt key.

You should get this result: é

Don't hold the shift key, and don't have caps lock on.
70 posted on 02/16/2003 6:27:45 PM PST by petuniasevan (Free Republic of Katzenellenbogen at NationStates.net)
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To: petuniasevan
Now that is really cool. These guys have got good imagenations. Thanks alot and have a good one.
71 posted on 02/16/2003 6:28:56 PM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: petuniasevan; MHGinTN
ASCII codes!

There are also less memory-intensive HTML codes. The string "&eacute" will produce: é

(It isn't happening when I show it because I'm using a different sequence, "&amp," to force the display rather than the interpretation of an ampersand.)

72 posted on 02/16/2003 6:32:09 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: MHGinTN
You don't need to go near the "e" key on your keyboard.

ASCII codes are unique to each character.

The letter "e" is code 101. Alt 0101 makes e. &#0101; makes e.

Hope this helps.

I disabled and enabled HTML to show how the codes worked. It's done by using the <XMP> tag. You must close it to restore HTML coding.

73 posted on 02/16/2003 6:36:01 PM PST by petuniasevan (Free Republic of Katzenellenbogen at NationStates.net)
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To: Fractal Trader

The Tachyon Drive: Vex = infinity with Eex =0

Light speed, c = 3 × 108 meters per second, is the ultimate speed limit of the universe. The well-tested physics orthodoxy of special relativity tells us that nothing can go faster than c. When any massive object with rest mass M (taken to be in energy units) has velocity v=c (or relativistic velocity ß = v/c = 1), the object's mass-energy becomes infinite. This is because the relativistic mass increase factor g = 1/(1 - ß2)1/2 has a zero in its denominator, and the net mass-energy E is given by E = gM. Therefore, it would require all the energy in the universe and more to accelerate the object to a velocity of ß = 1.

If the massive object could somehow be drop-kicked over the light-speed barrier so that v was greater than c, then both g and E would become imaginary quantities (like [-1]½ ) because ß would be larger than 1 and (1 - ß2) would be negative. This, says physics orthodoxy, is Nature's way of telling us that such quantities have nothing to do with our universe, in which all measurable physical variables like E must have real (not imaginary) numbers as values.

"Not so!" said Gerald Feinberg, the eminent physicist and SF fan who died last year at the age of 59. In a 1967 paper, Feinberg postulated a type of hypothetical particles with a rest mass M that also has an imaginary value (M2<0). Then E = gM, the observable mass-energy of these particles, becomes real and positive and is compatible with other energies in our universe. Feinberg christened his hypothetical particles "tachyons" (from the Greek word for swift) for their characteristic that they always travel more swiftly than c.

Normal particles (or "tardyons" in Feinberg's terminology) have a velocity of 0 when their mass-energy is smallest (at E=M). They have a velocity slightly less than c when their mass energy is very large compared to its rest mass (E>>M). Tachyons (if they exist) would behave in an inverted way, so that when their mass-energy is smallest (E=0) they would have infinite velocity (1/ß = 0) and when their mass energy is very large compared to their rest mass (E >> |M|) they would have a velocity slightly larger than c.

This can perhaps be seen more clearly by considering some equations of special relativity. When any particle (tachyon or tardyon) has rest mass M and mass-energy E, it has a momentum P (in energy units) given by E2 = P2 + M2. For tardyons (normal particles) it should be clear from this equation that E cannot be less than M and is always greater than P. For tachyons, however, we have the peculiarity that M2 is negative, so that the energy equation becomes E2 = P2 - |M|2 or P2 = E2 + |M|2. This means that E can be as small as zero (when P = |M|) and that P is always greater than E and cannot be less than |M|. These quantities are related to the relativistic velocity ß by the equation ß = P/E. This tells us that when a tachyon has its minimum momentum P = |M|, it will also have its lowest possible mass-energy (E=0) and will have infinite velocity.

The theoretical work on tachyons in the 1960's by Feinberg and others, particularly Sudarshan and Recami, prompted a "gold rush" among experimentalists seeking to be the first to discover tachyons in the real world. They studied the kinematics of high energy particle reactions at large accelerators, they built timing experiments that used cosmic rays, and they probed many radioactive decay processes for some hint of tachyon emission. Although there were a few false "discoveries" among these results, all of the believable experimental results were negative in the decade or so after the initial theoretical work. Some cold water was also thrown on the tachyon concept from the theoretical direction when it was demonstrated (by physicist and SF author Gregory Benford, among others) that tachyons could be used to construct an "anti-telephone" capable of sending information backwards in time in violation of the principle of causality, one of the most fundamental and mysterious laws of physics. Tachyons were therefore metaphorically placed on a dusty shelf in the museum of might-be particles for which there is no experimental evidence, and there they have languished for the past 25 years. But this may now be changing: a new and growing body of evidence from an unexpected direction supports the possible existence of tachyons.

There is great fundamental interest in the mass of the electron neutrino (nue), because it is a leading "dark matter" candidate. Several very careful experiments have been mounted to measure its mass through its effect on the beta decay of mass-3 hydrogen or tritium. Tritium, with one proton and two neutrons in its nucleus, is transformed by the weak interaction beta-decay process into mass-3 helium (two protons and one neutron) by emitting an electron and an anti-neutrino (3H -> 3He + e- + nue) with an excess energy of 18.6 keV. This is the lowest energy beta decay known, and therefore the one which is affected most strongly by the mass of the electron neutrino.

If the kinetic energy of the emitted electrons is measured for a very large number of similar tritium decays, one finds a bell-shaped "spectrum" of energies ranging from essentially zero electron energy to a maximum of about 18.6 keV. This maximum-energy tip of the electron's kinetic energy distribution is called the "endpoint", and is the place where the neutrino is emitted with near-zero energy and where the neutrino's mass will make it's presence known. When the endpoint region is made linear (using a plotting trick called a Kurie plot), then the straight-line dependence of the electron's kinetic energy takes a node-dive just before it reaches zero, displaying the effect of neutrino mass.

Because of the relativistic relation of mass, energy, and momentum (E2 = P2 + M2) it is the mass-squared of the neutrino that is actually determined by the tritium end-point measurements. The mass-squared is allowed to vary from negative values (too many electrons with energies near the end-point) through Mnu2=0 (the expected number of electrons with energies near the end-point), to a positive mass-squared (too few electrons with energies near the end-point), and this variation is used to fit the experimental data. The resulting fit is quoted with the measured value of Mnu2 plus-or-minus the statistical error in the measurement plus-or-minus the estimated systematic error in the measurement.

At least five experimental groups have made careful measurements of Mnu2, and several of these groups have published their results in scientific journals. The two most recent published values are:
Zürich (Switzerland) Mnu2 = -158 ± 150 ± 103 eV2 (1986)
Los Alamos (USA) Mnu2 = -147 ± 68± 41 eV2 (1991)

As the numbers imply, both groups find an excess of electrons with energies near the tritium endpoint. There have also been recent informal reports (but no further publications) from these and other laboratories, particularly a group at a well-known weapons laboratory in California, of measurements which continue to give negative values to Mnu2 with even more statistically meaningful error estimates. I was told by one of the experimenters that if the a similar result had been found with the same errors but with the positive of the determined value for Mnu2, there would have been much publicity, with press conferences announcing the discovery of a non-zero mass for the electron neutrino.

We are not scandalized by the possibility that Mnu2 is negative, indicating that the electron neutrino is perhaps a tachyon. In fact, we rather like the idea that a well known particle may routinely be breaking the light-speed barrier. Let us then suppose that the nue is a tachyon with an imaginary mass of, say i × 12 eV. What are the physical consequences of this? The answer is disappointing. The tritium endpoint measurement is so difficult precisely because assuming a small neutrino mass (real or imaginary) has very few observable consequences. The "dark matter" implications are also nil. Since tachyons can have any mass-energy down to zero and are never at rest, they, like photons, cannot contribute to the excess of dark matter in the universe.

The above-mentioned "tachyon anti-telephone" with its violations of causality is also essentially impossible. Neutrinos are fairly easy to produce (using an accelerator to create beta-decaying nuclei) but very difficult to detect. The only successful neutrino detectors use either neutrino-induced nuclear reactions (the Homestake and Gallex experiments) or hard neutrino-electron scatterings (Kamiokande and SNO) to detect neutrinos with extremely low efficiency. But to use the possible tachyonic super-light speed of the electron neutrinos, they must have mass-energies comparable to or less than 12 electron volts. This is about 10-6 of the lowest neutrino energy ever detected, neither of the above detection schemes can be used in this energy range, and there is no known alternative method of detection. Thus, even if the nue is a tachyon, the law of causality is safe from our tamperings for the foreseeable future.

Consider the central problem of rocketry: how can one burn fuel at a high enough exhaust velocity to provide reasonable thrust without an unreasonable expenditure of energy. This is the dilemma that plagues our space program, and the solutions we have developed are not very good.

So let's consider a device that makes great quantities of E=0 tachyons and uses them as the infinite velocity exhaust of a "rocket". Within the constraints of the conservation laws of physics, we can make all the tachyons we want for free, provided we make them in neutrino-antineutrino pairs to conserve spin and lepton number. Momentum conservation is not a problem because we want and need the momentum kick derived from emitting the neutrino-antineutrino pair. This leaves us to deal with energy conservation

The paradox here is that with a high-momentum exhaust of tachyons produced at no energy cost and beamed out the back of our space vehicle, the vehicle would seem to gain kinetic energy from nowhere, in violation of the law of conservation of energy. The solution to this paradox (as can be demonstrated by considering particle systems) is that the processes producing the tachyons must also consume enough internal energy to account for the kinetic energy gain of the system. Thus, a tachyon drive vehicle might be made to hover at no energy cost (antigravity!), but could only gain kinetic energy if a comparable amount of stored energy were supplied.

How could we arrange for an engine to produce great floods of electron neutrino-antineutrino pairs beamed in a selected direction? All I can do here is to lay out the problems and speculate. Neutrinos are produced by the weak interaction, which has that name because is much many orders of magnitude weaker than electromagnetism. Neutrino production of any kind is improbable. On the other hand, in any quantum reaction process the energy cost squared appears in the denominator of the probability, and if that energy is zero, it should make for abig probability. The trick might be to arrange some reaction or process that is in principle strong but is inhibited by momentum conservation. Then the emission of a neutrino-antineutrino pair to supply the needed momentum with zero energy cost would make the process go. A string of similar atomic or nuclear systems prepared in this way might constitute an inverted population suitable for stimulated emission (like light, correlated neutrino-antinuetrino pairs should be bosons), resulting in a beam from a "tachyon laser" that might amplify the process and produce the desired strong beam of tachyons.

References:

Tachyons:
"Particles That Go Faster Than Light", Gerald Feinberg, Scientific American, 69-77 (February-1970);
Tachyons, Monopoles, and Related Topics, E. Recami, ed., North Holland Publishing Co., (1978).

Neutrino Mass Measurements:
"Measurement of the Neutrino Mass from Tririum Beta Becay", E. Holzschuh, Rep. Prog. Phys. 55, 1035-1091 (1992).

74 posted on 02/16/2003 6:40:43 PM PST by vannrox (The Preamble to the Bill of Rights - without it, our Bill of Rights is meaningless!)
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To: VadeRetro; MHGinTN
Handy table of "entity references"!



"Special" Character Entity References
      
   &lt;      -  <      &gt;      -    >
   &amp;     -  &      &quot;    -    " 
      
HTML 2.0 Standard Entity References 
      
   &AElig;   -  Æ      &Aacute;  -  Á      &Acirc;   -  Â 
   &Agrave;  -  À      &Aring;   -  Å      &Atilde;  -  Ã 
   &Auml;    -  Ä      &Ccedil;  -  Ç      &ETH;     -  Ð 
   &Eacute;  -  É      &Ecirc;   -  Ê      &Egrave;  -  È 
   &Euml;    -  Ë      &Iacute;  -  Í      &Icirc;   -  Î 
   &Igrave;  -  Ì      &Iuml;    -  Ï      &Ntilde;  -  Ñ 
   &Oacute;  -  Ó      &Ocirc;   -  Ô      &Ograve;  -  Ò
   &Oslash;  -  Ø      &Otilde;  -  Õ      &Ouml;    -  Ö 
   &THORN;   -  Þ      &Uacute;  -  Ú      &Ucirc;   -  Û 
   &Ugrave;  -  Ù      &Uuml;    -  Ü      &Yacute;  -  Ý 
   &aacute;  -  á      &acirc;   -  â      &aelig;   -  æ 
   &agrave;  -  à      &aring;   -  å      &atilde;  -  ã 
   &auml;    -  ä      &ccedil;  -  ç      &eacute;  -  é 
   &ecirc;   -  ê      &egrave;  -  è      &eth;     -  ð 
   &euml;    -  ë      &iacute;  -  í      &icirc;   -  î 
   &igrave;  -  ì      &iuml;    -  ï      &ntilde;  -  ñ 
   &oacute;  -  ó      &ocirc;   -  ô      &ograve;  -  ò 
   &oslash;  -  ø      &otilde;  -  õ      &ouml;    -  ö 
   &szlig;   -  ß      &thorn;   -  þ      &uacute;  -  ú 
   &ucirc;   -  û      &ugrave;  -  ù      &uuml;    -  ü 
   &yacute;  -  ý      &yuml;    -  ÿ      
      
Entities Added with HTML 3.2
      
   &nbsp;    -         &iexcl;   -  ¡      &pound;   -  £
   &curren;  -  ¤      &yen;     -  ¥      &brvbar;  -  ¦
   &sect;    -  §      &uml;     -  ¨      &copy;    -  ©
   &ordf;    -  ª      &laquo;   -  «      &not;     -  ¬
   &shy;     -  ­      &reg;     -  ®      &macr;    -  ¯
   &deg;     -  °      &plusmn;  -  ±      &sup2;    -  ²
   &sup3;    -  ³      &acute;   -  ´      &micro;   -  µ
   &para;    -  ¶      &middot;  -  ·      &cedil;   -  ¸
   &sup1;    -  ¹      &ordm;    -  º      &raquo;   -  »
   &frac14;  -  ¼      &frac12;  -  ½      &frac34;  -  ¾
   &iquest;  -  ¿
      
Additional Widely Implemented Entities
      
   &times;   -  ×
   &divide;  -  ÷
   &cent;    -  ¢

75 posted on 02/16/2003 6:43:36 PM PST by petuniasevan (Free Republic of Katzenellenbogen at NationStates.net)
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To: longshadow; Piltdown_Woman; Junior; edwin hubble; Godel; Condorman; stanz; general_re; Aric2000
FTL Ping.
76 posted on 02/16/2003 6:52:20 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas)
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To: MHGinTN
Note vannrox's post #74.

It's full of special characters. He got the source code from a web page; otherwise he'd have had to type in ASCII, alt, or character entities.
77 posted on 02/16/2003 6:58:56 PM PST by petuniasevan (® ex-€älîƒørñìåñ ™)
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To: PatrickHenry
Thanks for the ping, Patrick Henry.

This thread contains a gold mine in the link to Cramer's site and the great matrix of cutting edge physics essays.
@ post#43.

78 posted on 02/16/2003 7:05:22 PM PST by edwin hubble
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To: vannrox
No and Yes.
79 posted on 02/16/2003 7:07:43 PM PST by semaj
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To: aruanan
Some interesting links to PDF stuff...

Physics of Exotic Propulsion
Wigner Scale Space Density & Technological Surprise
Introduction to Warp Drive Physics
An extension of Wheeler's "Geometrodynamics"
For a detailed slide show on "Bohmian non-mechanics"
Possible quantum gravity effects in a charged Bose condensate under variable e.m. field
The Role of the Spacetime Diffeomorphism Group Diff(M)
80 posted on 02/16/2003 7:08:08 PM PST by vannrox (The Preamble to the Bill of Rights - without it, our Bill of Rights is meaningless!)
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