Gov. Granholm again publicly defies Church: advocates recognition for same sex couples

Detroit News via www.StopGranholm.com ^ | 2-16-2003 | staff

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I am trying to remain civil, but must admit that I don't have a great deal of warm, fuzzy thoughts when it comes to the Catholic church. That being said, I will not judge them... as I have said in more than one post. I just feel so terribly for them, that their self esteem is slow low, that they have to find other, struggling Catholics to pick on. Shouldn't we all attend to our own problems, first? I am not good at quoting the Bible, but the thought that comes to mind is something about "removing the plank in your own eye, before you worry about the splinter in the eye of your brother"? Anyway, I appreciate your biting comments... irreverant humor is always good for sending the point home! :)

[Siobhan]

Anger-filled rhetoric will only harden her heart to any warnings that you may have.

Actually, you have no way on earth of knowing whether or not this would be true. That is pure conjecture that may make one feel good but is utterly unknowable.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Well, you have no earthly way of knowing if anger-filled rhetoric would cause her to change her mind, now do you?

[Siobhan]

I certainly do. I've seen your protests on TV. (Not "you" personally. I don't know you from Adam. I'm referring to your organization.) Your message might speak to me, but you folks come across as shrill harpies.

It is personal when you write to me and use the word 'you'. You do not know me. The only organization of which I am a part is the Catholic Church. You have no basis for including me in "you folks" accept for your own overactive imagination.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

As an aside... seeing that this is about pro-life... I heard an interesting illustration. I am not going to argue the pros and cons.

A woman is pregnant, and the devil says, get rid of the baby, just a little problem, life will be better.

Jesus says, Please don't.

The woman ignores Jesus, and has the abortion.

Afterwards, the devil ridicules her, tells her she is damned to hell, not worthy of anything, she murdered her baby.

Jesus says, I loved you before the abortion, I love you after the abortion. All is forgiven. Repent.

This was a powerful illustration, for me. Maybe you agree.

[ItsJeff]

I don't have a great deal of warm, fuzzy thoughts when it comes to the Catholic church

I do have some issues with Catholicism, but have great regard for Catholics. Here in Detroit, I see them proudly in action, educating our kids and providing health care for the poor. (I've seen statistics as to how many Detroit kids are given scholarships to Catholic schools. It's amazing, albeit depressing.) In fact, for their good works alone, I'll go as far as to say that America needs the Catholic church.

[Siobhan]

That is your issue and question, not mine. Truth is truth. God used Balaam's ass to speak the truth. God will make use of the truth so long as we speak it, even if it is shouted at ear-shattering decibels.

[Siobhan]

Jesus says, I loved you before the abortion, I love you after the abortion. All is forgiven. Repent.

That is part truth and part lie. One must repent before forgiveness.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Well, I attended Madonna University, grew up in Milford. So, I know the area. Catholic charities are wonderful, truly. They do so much that goes unnoticed... but Jesus told all of us to give without expecting rewards and praise from fellow humans, keep it quiet, between you and God. His reward is enough. Christians all over unite in good for each other. And, passionate discussions add to our deeper understanding of our faith. If we break things down to common denominators, all is fine... hey, I even like Methodists and Presbyterians! Wink-wink! (Used to be Presbyterian!)

[Siobhan]

Jesus says, I loved you before the abortion, I love you after the abortion. All is forgiven. Repent.

That is part truth and part lie. One must repent before forgiveness.

[ItsJeff]

Maybe you agree.

Absolutely I do.

I was talking earlier about how I have no intention to give up the Methodist church because it is officially "pro-choice." Most of that is because I think of it as "my" church and take great comfort in it. But another part of it is that the churches that are traditionally "pro-life" strike me as too mean-spirited and condemning towards those who disagree with them.

I wish I could copy what you just posted and send it to every Baptist, Assembly of God, etc., church in America.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I disagree. The forgiveness is there, before you even commit the sin! Yes, you must ask for it! Repentance is necessary. But God loves you, even if you don't repent! God loves you even if you don't love him. I didn't say that the woman in the illustration repented. I just said that the love of Christ is always there, whether we chose to believe it, or not. I'm beginning to wonder if you think that God loves the Governor, now! Don't be that way! God loves the Governor, and Osama, believe it or not! God even loves me! And for that, I praise him!

[Siobhan]

I am trying to remain civil, but must admit that I don't have a great deal of warm, fuzzy thoughts when it comes to the Catholic church. That being said, I will not judge them... as I have said in more than one post. I just feel so terribly for them, that their self esteem is slow low, that they have to find other, struggling Catholics to pick on.

The veneer of civility is not necessary. It clearly is not at the heart of your thoughts. You judge us even while saying you won't judge us.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I'm a Baptist, now... but, I don't believe in denominations, truly. They didn't exist in the first days of Christianity, there weren't enough followers. I don't know that they really are good for Christ's Church, today, so much division. But, I believe that every person can find comfort from their own Christian community. The people in the church are human, and will make mistakes, but if you walk with the Lord, he doesn't care, truly, which church you sat in last Sunday. He just wants you to be there, with him.

[ItsJeff]

hey, I even like Methodists and Presbyterians!

My brother married a Catholic girl. (Another good reason to like the Catholic church. For all their faults, they still produce "good girls." You find a teen-aged girl raised in the Catholic faith and odds are good that she's marryin' material.) Anyhoo, she told us once that when she was in grade school, the nun told the class that they would burn in hell if they ever set foot in a non-Catholic church ; )

[Siobhan]

I am quite convinced of God's love for all. I am also equally convinced that your illustration is unBiblical and fails to deal with God in his fulness as Just Judge as well as Merciful Redeemer.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

No, I really don't judge you as a Catholic! Do you judge me as a Baptist? I hope not! I just am pained by your anger for a fellow Christian. I don't have a lot of warm fuzzy thoughts for the nearest Jewish temple, either. Do you know why? Because I don't pray in that temple, and I don't pray at your church. The only church that I like is the little country church down the road that I attend... not necessarily the So. Baptist Convention! Can you see the difference?

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Time for you to brush up on 2 Thessalonians 3:6

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Just judge and merciful redeemer... yes, I agree. But, has Christ come and told you that the Governor is in peril, and you, my faithful servant, must show her the error of her ways? Why don't you worry more about your own errors? Why must you judge everyone else! She needs your PRAYERS... if you spent more time praying for her, than just spouting off condemning statements, her situation may improve greatly, because the power of prayer can change EVERYTHING!

[perform_to_strangers]

It's not an attack on her salvation nor a judgement on the status of her personal faith. Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ, which holds the fullness of His Gospel exactly as He gave it to the Apostles, and which thus offers the only absolutely certain path to salvation. When a Catholic public figure dilutes the message of the Church, for example on issues of sexual morality, then granting her views the appearance of legitimacy, by allowing her to remain in communion with the Church, endangers the salvation of anyone who heeds her.

Excommunication removes no one from the love of Christ.

If the writer isn't publicly espousing heresy or immorality, then yes, he could stand up to exactly the scrutiny he's calling for.