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Land Trusts Attempt Stealth Tax Cut
American Land Rights Association ^ | Monday, February 17, 2003 9:59 PM | American Land Rights Association

Posted on 02/18/2003 9:57:26 AM PST by countrydummy

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To: HairOfTheDog
When I started looking at this process (as you might note from the Preface), I was not far from where you are philosophically. When I started studying the problem, I actually thought new laws would solve the problems I saw!

Not any more. No matter what laws the legislature writes the bureaucracy can ignore re reinterpret them at will. Fro reasons I cannot even explain or recall, I started looking at real estate transactions in my County. Being an engineer trained in economic theory and raised by father who was a bond consultant, I looked at the transaction history as if it were an electronic signal. I then started looking at timber prices over the same period. What I saw shocked me. Government policy had created most of the problems it was supposedly dedicated to fix, whether by tax law, subsidy, or regulation. It wasn't until I interviewed a man who (at the time unbeknownst to me) was one of the principal players in this real estate scam that I gained confirmation on what was really going on. I related my observations and theories to him and asked whether it was even possible that politicians were smart enough to pull off such a manipulative scam. He confirmed two things: first, that the politicians aren't that smart; and second, that there are other people who USE politicians who are. He then added that I might be more careful or I could get hurt.

In short, the pattern of land price manipulation I had seen was corrupt and for profit, to say nothing of the environmental damage the policy was doing to our forests.

At this point, I would ask that if you want to know more and be fair to me and my kids for my time, you should buy the book and read it. What you found difficult to read isn't so because of the language, but because its perspective is so alien to you after a lifetime of media manipulation by the beneficiaries of this mess. Take it from one who has been there, it's deeper than you think.

41 posted on 02/18/2003 5:10:52 PM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by politics.)
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To: freeper12
In my town, the less houses the better and if some rich person wants to sell or donate his/her development rights away to a NON-GOVERNMENTAL agency, I am all for it. I don't think the govt should be in the business of buying up land though...but thats just me.

One of the problem with land trusts is that the land often ends up in the hands of government anyway. The trusts don't want to pay the property taxes any more than we do. As the land goes back to government and is taken off the tax rolls, the cost to the remaining private landowners rises.

The Nature Conservancy often sells to the Federal government at a profit. That means the end result is little different from them buying it or government.

I got to hear the spokesperson for the Natural Land Trust speak a few weeks ago. Their intent is to leverage whatever grants (from government) they can get into land purchases, so the land can be made roadless. We need large tracts (>50,000 acres) here in the east so the cougars and wolves roam free again. I'm not making this up - this organization is conciously working to implement Dave Foremans Wildlands Project here in Pennsylvania.

42 posted on 02/18/2003 5:25:12 PM PST by Kay Ludlow
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To: Carry_Okie
Thanks, really! It is a different language that you speak in... and I guess I still don't have my head wrapped around the problem... I don't think you can sell a nebulous 'everyone is corrupt and should be arrested' idea to the public...

The what I would ask is, what does your world look like, if it went your way? What exactly am I supposed to support? My instinct is that some things are worth preserving relatively naturally, and that land trust sales are a pretty fair way to achieve that. You think they are wrong. I will consider buying the book, but I would like to know the short version of where you are going!
43 posted on 02/18/2003 5:43:43 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: Kay Ludlow
>>The trusts don't want to pay the property taxes any more than we do

I don't know, maybe I am naive, but I thought most conservation trusts are setup as non-profit corps, and wouldn't need to pay property taxes anyway...so selling the land to the govt so they don't need to pay property taxes doesn't sound like a believable arguement to me...perhaps you have some links to a few mainstream articles that exposes the truth so I can see where you are coming from...so far, your arguements are not convincing to me, and even seem somewhat illogical; but like I said, this is not an area I have spent to many brain cells on, but I'd need more proof before I'd get worked up about this.

44 posted on 02/18/2003 6:11:19 PM PST by freeper12
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To: HairOfTheDog
In a nutshell:

Land doesn't take care of itself. If there is anything we should have learned by the condition of National Forests and National Parks it is that.

Taking care of the natural beauty and productivity of a natural asset is a perfectly good business because it provides the productive foundation for all economic activity. The key is a just and efficient pricing system. I have devised that.

When government assumes that role, it drives the value of that service to zero. What you get is an armed monopolist capable of controlling all property. The power to control then becomes power for sale. That's the tyranny they were talking about.

Thus the real questions regarding who fills that role are:

I argue that a market can do a more honest and efficient job of that service than government. I devised a system that makes it work. For the rest, you'll just have to read it. Freegards, CO
45 posted on 02/18/2003 6:24:21 PM PST by Carry_Okie (The environment is too complex and too important to be managed by politics.)
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To: Mamzelle
No hunting on NC land.
46 posted on 02/18/2003 6:28:35 PM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: Mamzelle
No hunting on NC land.
47 posted on 02/18/2003 6:34:06 PM PST by Atchafalaya
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To: HairOfTheDog
Got the FM. I personally like Ranch. But a nice vinaigrette might be nice.

Why bother? Toss in a chicken and call it dinner.

48 posted on 02/18/2003 6:45:08 PM PST by Ramius
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To: Ramius
Good tip. I like Ranch too, 'specially if there is gonna be chicken in it!
49 posted on 02/18/2003 7:06:26 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: freeper12
I'll find some mainstream links for you. As far as property tax, in PA non-profits are not exempt from local property tax, only income tax. That's why they are so quick to turn land over to local government.

In the last couple of years, there was a case locally where a landowner had an agreement to sell to a developer. The developer was fairly well known locally, and was a member of the Board of Directors of the local watershed group - Clearwater Conservancy. People who were accustomed to having undeveloped lands behind them were upset, so Clearwater Conservancy came to their rescue. If the community came up with funds, Clearwater would apply for grants to help buy the land and protect it.

As it shook out, the developer (a member of the Clearwater Board) generously agreed to sell the least developable half of the land to Clearwater, for almost the same price he was buying the ENTIRE PROPERTY from the original owner for.

There was a public fundraising effort, where they got about $20,000 in actual donations from private citiziens, and about $80,000 in grants from local governments. Clearwater secured $660,000 in state and federal grants to buy the half from a member of their board. He personally profited immensely from all the tax dollars (federal, state, and local) to pay him to NOT develop the land next to the trailer park, and only develop the land next to the high-priced houses on the other end.

What happened to the land? Clearwater didn't want to hold it. It was given to the Township, where it will be used as a park, maintained with our tax dollars.

From what I've been reading about these "environmental" groups lately, our experience locally is the norm, not the exception. The tax-payers locally would NEVER have voted to spend $760,000 on land next to the trailer park. If the tax-payers had known that the money would come from taxes, they would have objected, but they didn't know. All the discussion was about "grants, matching funds, sources of funding".

If people truly supported this land being in the hands of government, they would certainly agree to government funding for purchase of land for preservation. The only ones that pass are for very low amounts - the environmentalists put out all the press reports about the support these measures have, then inside government complain bitterly that there's little they can do with the paltry sum they've been given.

50 posted on 02/18/2003 7:07:20 PM PST by Kay Ludlow
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To: HairOfTheDog
Giving a tax break to sellers who sell lands for the purpose of preservation is not government tyranny yet.

It's that last little word that raises all the problems. Our Founders were wise enough to try to design a government that would run as few risks of potential abuse as possible. Why abandon that wisdom, just because it might take a while before the truly abusive problems begin?

51 posted on 02/18/2003 7:16:22 PM PST by Teacher317
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To: Teacher317
OK then take out the last word! This is not tyranny.
52 posted on 02/18/2003 7:19:48 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
OK then take out the last word!

Well then the entire argument is gone. Where's the fun in that? ;^)

53 posted on 02/18/2003 7:52:12 PM PST by Teacher317
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To: Teacher317
LOL!
54 posted on 02/18/2003 7:57:47 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog; Carry_Okie; farmfriend; sauropod; Grampa Dave
First, I think you are missing the point of the posting...this is what I posted, yet I did not write the alert, this comes from American Land Rights, and organization commented to the protection of private property rights! If these agencies are allowed these kind of incentives they will increase pressue on communities and local governments to futher devalue private property in the name of "for the good of the all"! They will thus "create willing-sellers", meaning forcing private property owners to sell to them.....thus the loss of tax bases, for the local communities....all of which is quite wrong!!!

You asked for a map, will here is a link. http://www.defenders.org/publiclands/images/landsmap.jpg

55 posted on 02/18/2003 9:13:04 PM PST by countrydummy
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To: B. A. Conservative
Wait! I totally agree with you! That is why I posted this alert! LOL
56 posted on 02/18/2003 9:14:55 PM PST by countrydummy
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To: HairOfTheDog; countrydummy; Carry_Okie
But I do not have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of land trusts or public lands.

You should. Here is an excellent example of what land trusts do. Water rights fight--farmer regrets selling to an open space trust Check out the posts by Carry_Okie. Then check out his book.

57 posted on 02/18/2003 9:32:09 PM PST by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: HairOfTheDog
My problems with Nature Conservancy are things such as this in their own words.

Negotiating agreements to manage areas without holding title to them, through partnerships or conservation easements

http://nature.org/aboutus/howwework/about/art5723.html

58 posted on 02/18/2003 9:55:20 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: razorback-bert
A smaller group near me did the same thing in an estuary protection project. They bought some lots, and negotiated conservation easements on others. They developed some of the property, or worked with a developer. The homes were then marketed as "Own your own nature reserve"... Utterly harmless. Also harmless would be if those landowners got a tax break for doing it. I just don't see the problem.
59 posted on 02/18/2003 10:07:09 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: countrydummy
What are you worried about? Republican "adults" are back in charge...Republican "adults" will protect your rights.
60 posted on 02/18/2003 10:29:08 PM PST by lewislynn
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