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Detectives won't face charges in shooting of handcuffed man
The Courier Journal ^ | 02/25/03 | Andrew Wolfson

Posted on 02/25/2003 5:54:25 AM PST by Fred Mertz

Edited on 05/07/2004 6:46:49 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

A Jefferson County grand jury declined yesterday to indict two detectives in the fatal Dec. 5 shooting of an African-American man holding a box-cutter knife with his hands cuffed behind his back.

''Every person in Kentucky, whether a citizen or police officer, has the right of self-defense,'' Commonwealth's Attorney Dave Stengel said at a news conference last night, after the grand jury's decision in the slaying of James Edward Taylor was announced.


(Excerpt) Read more at courier-journal.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Government; US: Kentucky
KEYWORDS: donutwatch; handcuffs; policeshooting; protests
This No Indictment story is big news in Louisville. This is the C-J leftist rag's version of events.
1 posted on 02/25/2003 5:54:25 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: SLB; BlueOneGolf; the irate magistrate; MasonGal; Lion Den Dan; Wally Cleaver; don bell; pocat; ...
FYI
2 posted on 02/25/2003 5:56:25 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: Fred Mertz
Ah. Yes, the dangerous man who had a knife was it? while his hands were handcuffed behind his back?

Shot 11 times, I believe.

Yeah. Self-Defense. Right.

3 posted on 02/25/2003 6:13:48 AM PST by DAnconia55
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To: Fred Mertz
So, what exactly do cops have to do to even lose their jobs?
4 posted on 02/25/2003 6:24:20 AM PST by FreeTally
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To: DAnconia55
Have you ever dealt with a drugged-up individual in handcuffs? I have... You would be amazed at what they can do, even when 'restrained'...


I say this not to defend the cops (because, quite frankly, most cops and I fail to get along - arrogant jerks that they tend to be) but to point out that just because an individual is handcuffed, doesn't mean they immediately become harmless - ESPECIALLY when drugs are involved...
5 posted on 02/25/2003 6:25:18 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks (There's no mushroom cloud with rock ín roll. No skin things happening years later, at least I hope.)
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To: FreeTally
>>So, what exactly do cops have to do to even lose their jobs?

Rat on a bad cop...short of that, cops can do no wrong.
6 posted on 02/25/2003 6:28:58 AM PST by freeper12
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To: Fred Mertz
Fred was he shot 11 times while handcuffed behind his back? How could he wield a knife behind his back? What is the story here? I know the District attorney recomended that he not be indicted. If the grand jury had gone for indictment well then the Ham sandwich line comes into play.

I think this line is telling:

Stengel noted last night that his recommendation -- and the grand jury's decision -- ''don't mean mistakes were not made.'' He said those would be addressed in ''the civil arena.''

That tells me that if this guy wasn't a cop and shot a handcuffed lowlife 11 times the evidence is there for a murder indictment.

I am glad the suspect is no longer in the gene pool.

7 posted on 02/25/2003 6:49:23 AM PST by Nov3 (Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion!)
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To: Fred Mertz
You know I hope if I made a "mistake" "it would be handled in the civil arena". I think I would be rooming with Bubba fighting for my virtue.
8 posted on 02/25/2003 6:57:58 AM PST by Nov3 (Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion!)
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To: Nov3
So you're basically saying that when cops make mistakes, there are slight changes in departmental policy, while when civilians make mistakes, they go to jail for years? It would seem to be the case.
9 posted on 02/25/2003 7:00:40 AM PST by coloradan
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To: Fred Mertz
I don't think we have heard the end of this story, by far. I have a suspicion that, like it or not, these police officers are going to be made examples of by the new "civilian review board."

If the whole civilian review board idea is foreign to the readers here, don't feel left out. It's also strange to those of us who live in Louisville. It is a proposal that could never grow teeth under the old government, but that the new Metro Council rammed down our throats (by a vote of 25-0, 1 abstention) without even posting on their ever-changing council agenda, two days after Mayor Jerry suggested it would be a swell idea.

10 posted on 02/25/2003 7:20:06 AM PST by RonPaulLives (Virgil Moore/Don Bell For Kentucky 2003)
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To: coloradan
BINGO
11 posted on 02/25/2003 7:58:29 AM PST by Nov3 (Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion!)
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To: Fred Mertz
Did anyone actually think the Grand Jury would prosecute one of its own? After all the guy they shot was black. < / DRIPPINGWITHSARCASM >
12 posted on 02/25/2003 8:15:35 AM PST by semaj
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To: *Donut watch
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
13 posted on 02/25/2003 8:16:54 AM PST by Free the USA (Stooge for the Rich)
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To: Nov3
What is the story here? ***

Read the article and then read the info on the Louisville web site.

I too thought this deal smelled when I first heard about it. There is definately more to the story than has been published until now. You need to keep in mind that a human can be hard to kill. The species is very tenacious of life.

14 posted on 02/25/2003 11:01:38 AM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: Fred Mertz
Thanks for the post and FYI, Fred.
15 posted on 02/25/2003 11:02:39 AM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: FreeTally
So, what exactly do cops have to do to even lose their jobs? Publicly endorse a Republican candidate.
16 posted on 02/25/2003 11:06:00 AM PST by MistrX
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To: Fred Mertz
All I know is that if a civilian shoots another civilian eleven times after having handcuffed him. Your gonna have a tough time claiming self-defense. Boxcutter or no your gonna get prison time.
17 posted on 02/25/2003 11:36:28 AM PST by Smogger
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To: DAnconia55
I've had people cuffed in back slip through the cuffs so they're in the front in a split second. I don't know much about this case as yet, but I highly recommend that anyone who thinks a knife or boxcutter is no match for an armed officer obtain and watch a copy of "Surviving Edged Weapons", distributed by Calibre Press.

Anyone who has seen and understood this tape will thereafter have a very healthy respect for being within 20-25' of an edged weapon. This is by no mean an OK to injure or shoot a person in cuffs, of course not, but they remain dangerous if they are merely secured with conventional cuffs and they have retained any weapon. Numerous officers have been killed by being complacent around cuffed persons, thinking they were secured.

18 posted on 02/25/2003 11:44:13 AM PST by Mjaye
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To: Fred Mertz
"The Rev. Louis Coleman of the Justice Resource Center said: ''This city . . . is no better than a plantation.'' "

Well....jump down, turn around, pick a bail of cotten Rev.
(we don't allow 'justice centers' on the plantation)

19 posted on 02/25/2003 11:51:00 AM PST by laotzu
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To: RonPaulLives
If the whole civilian review board idea is foreign to the readers here,

We have a "Civilian Review Board" in a large city near me. It is political in the extreme. The mayors, from either party, use the board to "park" political hacks on it so the hack has an income while planning to run for some other office. Or to reward political supporters by an appointment to the CRB, so the supporter gets a city car, with driver and feels important. They have lunch with the Mayor.

CRB's are not, IMO, worth the money.

20 posted on 02/25/2003 11:59:19 AM PST by elbucko
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To: FreeTally
When I lived in lousianna I remember a cop beat up a city bus driver while off duty over a parking space.

The driver made the tv news as he had to be hospitalized.

Then the cop went to the hospital and beat him up again made tv news again, but with further investigation. Seems he had multiple rape charges against him that were never brought to court.

He went on admin leave until internal affairs took care of it...a paid vacation.

I really think they should face same consequences of their actions as you or I but they dont.

Heck, one of the worst drunk drivers I've ever been behind up here was in a sheriffs car with DUI patrol on the back of it. Myself and my carpooler were too chicken to try to flag him down and issue a citizen arrest. Good thing we didn't...

21 posted on 02/25/2003 12:27:52 PM PST by lotus
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To: FreeTally
Break the code of silence...
22 posted on 02/25/2003 3:13:56 PM PST by eyes_only
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To: laotzu; Fred Mertz
"The Rev. Louis Coleman of the Justice Resource Center said: ''This city . . . is no better than a plantation.'' "

And if you look it up, you will see that the Reverend Louis Coleman doesn't even live in Louisville; he resides in Shelbyville, Kentucky.

23 posted on 02/25/2003 3:21:18 PM PST by RonPaulLives (Virgil Moore/Don Bell For Kentucky 2003)
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To: Smogger
All I know is that if a civilian shoots another civilian eleven times after having handcuffed him. Your gonna have a tough time claiming self-defense. Boxcutter or no your gonna get prison time.

Argument from hypothetical situations is pretty easy. Has this ever happened before? It seems to me that guy with a knife, even if he's handcuffed could be pretty dangerous. If I were on a jury I could see acquiting this hypothetical person.

24 posted on 02/25/2003 4:05:34 PM PST by MattAMiller
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To: MattAMiller
It seems to me that guy with a knife, even if he's handcuffed could be pretty dangerous. If I were on a jury I could see acquiting this hypothetical person.

What is the chance you are on the jury? When the DA is making political points prosecuting you as a racist and he offers you that murder 2 plea bargain it is the best you are going to get, unless you are a cop.

So you think that if you shot a handcuffed man armed with a box cutter 11 times the DA won't prosecute?

OK,tell me this, A buddy and you chase a 14 year old punk out of your house that he has broken into. While climbing a fence your bud falls and discharges his weapon. You then freak out and incorrectly conclude that he has been shot by the unarmed 14 year old who you proceed to plug in the back and kill. Do you think the DA is going to let you off?

OK how about this, you have an innocent 13 year old handcuffed face down on the floor at shotgun point. He has done nothing, mind you. You then shoot him in the back and claim it was an accident. Do you think the DA is going to let you off?

I will clue you in. You are going to jail and your family is going to be left destitute from the civil action that the DA is going to De-facto support by trying your case.

Here is what happens if you are a cop: You are cleared by the DA and returned to duty. Now I don't begrudge the police protection if the DA would protect law abiding citizens with the same zeal. You know what, he prosecutes them with the same zeal that he lets the cops go. That is not right.

25 posted on 02/25/2003 5:00:48 PM PST by Nov3 (Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion!)
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To: Nov3
Here is what happens if you are a cop: You are cleared by the DA and returned to duty. Now I don't begrudge the police protection if the DA would protect law abiding citizens with the same zeal. You know what, he prosecutes them with the same zeal that he lets the cops go. That is not right.

Be angry at the DA then. You have a point, there's an attitude that cops have a right to weild deadly force but citizens don't. But I don't blame beat cops for this state of affairs.

26 posted on 02/25/2003 5:12:39 PM PST by MattAMiller
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To: Nov3
Here is what happens if you are a cop: You are cleared by the DA and returned to duty. Now I don't begrudge the police protection if the DA would protect law abiding citizens with the same zeal. You know what, he prosecutes them with the same zeal that he lets the cops go. That is not right.

Be angry at the DA then. You have a point, there's an attitude that cops have a right to weild deadly force but citizens don't. But I don't blame beat cops for this state of affairs.

27 posted on 02/25/2003 5:12:41 PM PST by MattAMiller
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To: MattAMiller
Be angry at the DA then. You have a point, there's an attitude that cops have a right to weild deadly force but citizens don't. But I don't blame beat cops for this state of affairs.

The only cops I universally begrudge are the "TACT" squads and the lowlife squads who illegally search vehicles by the expressway. The reason I begrudge this line cop is that I would be in prison and my family left destitute in the same situation. Cops should not be above the law. As a matter of fact they should be held to a higher standard than private citizens. The opposite is true. Thay can get away with murder literally. Just ask the DA what he calls it when you do the same thing.

When the DA's get their heads out of their asses and treat law abiding citizens the same as cops, I will support REAL cops with a passion.

28 posted on 02/25/2003 5:22:45 PM PST by Nov3 (Going to war without France is like going hunting without an accordion!)
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To: RonPaulLives
In general, I don't care much for Reverend Coleman. But in this incident, I am in agreement with him 100%.

There is a major coverup going on, and this thing is far from over.
29 posted on 02/25/2003 8:55:13 PM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: Fred Mertz
Couple of questions.

Do Louisville cops have Tazers?

If the knife was in back, couldn't one of the cops kick the guy in the nuts from the front?
30 posted on 02/25/2003 9:15:07 PM PST by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
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To: Fred Mertz
If all six of those shot needed shooting, commendations, not indictments, are in order. There's a lot of violent, criminal scum out there.
31 posted on 02/25/2003 9:20:09 PM PST by 185JHP ( Brisance. Puissance. Resolve.)
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To: philetus
What amazes me is that the smart cop, the one who backed off, is now being hung out to dry. This is classic bait and switch tactics. It takes the attention away from the killer cop.

What is happening here is PR, damage control, propaganda, all of the above. Unfortunately it's working.
32 posted on 02/25/2003 9:22:43 PM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: 185JHP
One black, handcuffed man was fired at 12 times and hit and killed by 11 bullets by an idiot cop.

I don't believe you're reading the same article I am.
33 posted on 02/25/2003 9:26:22 PM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: Fred Mertz
Why did you mention in your reply that the criminal was black? Are you trying to imply that this was a racially-motivated shooting? And the number of shots fired is meaningless - the felonious assault with a deadly weapon was stopped.
34 posted on 02/25/2003 9:37:21 PM PST by 185JHP ( Brisance. Puissance. Resolve.)
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To: 185JHP; Fred Mertz
And the number of shots fired is meaningless

When you are facing murder charges for doing the same thing this cop did and the DA is repeatedly saying you shot a handcuffed man 11 times, tell me the same thing.

35 posted on 02/26/2003 8:31:18 PM PST by Nov3
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To: Fred Mertz
how could a handcuffed man be a threat?

Maybe it's because
a) he had a knife in his hands
b) he was charging the officer
c) he had the officer cornered
d) there was at least one other guy there, who could have taken advantage of a distracted police officer

36 posted on 02/26/2003 8:46:59 PM PST by xm177e2 (smile) :-)
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