Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Activists call recycling trash waste of time [Environmentalists call recycling "a complete failure"]
National Post ^ | March 03, 2003 | Michael Friscolanti

Posted on 03/04/2003 7:16:56 AM PST by ZGuy

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-125 next last
To: blackdog
The only time I was ever stung by a wasp was when my Dad moved the out house closer to the barn. I think I prefer fouling the air inside thank you very much!
51 posted on 03/04/2003 8:44:09 AM PST by Sunshine Sister
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: blackdog
In the California county I live in (Ventura) it is illegal to use gray water in your garden!!!
52 posted on 03/04/2003 8:44:55 AM PST by ZGuy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: ZGuy
Why?
53 posted on 03/04/2003 8:46:52 AM PST by Sunshine Sister
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
I tend to agree with you. I recycle everything. I throw all kinds of metal and plastic into the recycle bin. If they don't want it, they can bury it.
54 posted on 03/04/2003 8:47:10 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Fidgit
Hey Fidg! Glad you could drop by. ;o)
55 posted on 03/04/2003 8:48:16 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: ZGuy
In the California county I live in (Ventura) it is illegal to use gray water in your garden!!!

Well hell, that's like other things in Cal.

But everyone does it anyway.......LOL!

56 posted on 03/04/2003 8:48:35 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: onedoug
fyi
57 posted on 03/04/2003 8:48:38 AM PST by windcliff
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Joe Hadenuf; ZGuy
Didn't Sunset Magazine recently do an article about using grey water...in, of all places, Ventura County? :o) I'll have to look that up.
58 posted on 03/04/2003 8:50:33 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: ZGuy
NO KIDDING. They were told a decade ago it would cost more to recycle and not prove worthwhile. They were wrong but they pushed and pushed. Now we're left with another expensive program and infrastructure demanded by liberals and face the cost of dismantling their failure.
59 posted on 03/04/2003 8:51:19 AM PST by 1Old Pro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sunshine Sister
They may have lumped black water and gray water together, or they may think that any water other than rainwater or treated water from the hose will have impurities that will build up and contaminate the soil over time. I guess they figure they must stop me from my desire to contaminate my own garden. [sigh]
60 posted on 03/04/2003 8:51:32 AM PST by ZGuy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
the commitment of all is needed to make a significant difference. imho.

So, how do you achieve that committment? Keep in mind that your choices are limited to:

1) Deceptive public education campaigns,
2) Financial incentives,
3) Financial penalties, or
4) Force.

This is all the government can do. Given this, having them lie to us is the least offensive course they can take.

61 posted on 03/04/2003 8:53:12 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: windcliff
"The weather bureau...the FAA.... They're all cheats and liars!"
62 posted on 03/04/2003 8:55:04 AM PST by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
Are you saying that all recycling companies are gov't owned? If so you're wrong.

The commitment is individual. Most folks are so apathetic they don't care to be good stewards of the earth. *I'm not an earth muffin so don't even consider it* I believe in taking care of what I have and taking into consideration ways to lower the level of landfill, while recycling those things that can indeed be recycled. As mentioned before in an earlier post, recycling success varies by area. Our area is successful.

63 posted on 03/04/2003 8:57:23 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: ErnBatavia
I can't wait to retire to the desert. Unfortunatley, my wife has other ideas.
What DOES have my imagination going on overload is, recycle yard clippings ? In the desert? Can you tell me how that works ?
64 posted on 03/04/2003 9:12:05 AM PST by stylin19a (all in all - I'd rather be golfing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
The commitment is individual. Most folks are so apathetic they don't care to be good stewards of the earth.

So how do you change the level of individual committment for most folks?

Most places I have been have penalties associated with failure to recycle. These penalties are assessed by the local government. People recycle in order to avoid a fine. The fines make recycling the economically logical choice.

There is no way the economics of recycling justify the number of man hours and the consumption of resources required to make it work. Even the best programs barely cover the direct costs of collection and processing. But what is absent from these costs is the subsidy from the free labor and resources that were extracted from the individual householder through force of law. Add up all that, and recycling is a loser for everybody.

65 posted on 03/04/2003 9:12:39 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: gridlock; homeschool mama
Financial incentives. (like everthing else in the world) At home you recycle so you don't have to pay for a larger trash bin. At work you recycle so your company can get a "rebate" for some of its "trash" and they don't have to pay for a larger trash bin. Just checked this, 1999 figures. Over 58% of the fiber my company produces is from recycled sources. And yes, tree's still have to fall to suppliment strong fiber content.
66 posted on 03/04/2003 9:12:54 AM PST by Fidgit (<------ who's this?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: stylin19a
LOL...Who has grass lawns in the desert?! :o)
67 posted on 03/04/2003 9:13:17 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: stylin19a
What desert?
68 posted on 03/04/2003 9:16:39 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: gridlock; homeschool mama
Thats if you believe that the economics of recycling do not justify the man hours. Our profits show me something completely different.
69 posted on 03/04/2003 9:17:06 AM PST by Fidgit (<------ who's this?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: ErnBatavia
Melrose Dutchmen!!! Mark Olberding!!!
70 posted on 03/04/2003 9:17:43 AM PST by johniegrad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: ZGuy
I sympathize with the "sigh." Like you are going to poison yourself. Come on!
71 posted on 03/04/2003 9:18:02 AM PST by Sunshine Sister
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
As you point out to gridlock, recycling done by industry can be of some value due to the consistancy on output of said recyclables. Let's stick with curbside recycling and not the 700 tons of cardboard that Sara Lee puts out in wire bales each week. We are still talking glass, plastic, cardboard, junkmail, tires, and newsprint/magazines. Can we discuss that?

It seems that those who have a small presence in a narrow segment of the industry are creating a different picture on Industrial waste VS. curbside garbage.

72 posted on 03/04/2003 9:18:22 AM PST by blackdog ("But that's what I do" A quote from my Border Collie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: onedoug
You may add idiots to that!
73 posted on 03/04/2003 9:19:06 AM PST by Sunshine Sister
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: Joe Hadenuf
I served @ 29 Palms in 1969. My sister lives in Lake Hava Su City...I'll settle for either.
74 posted on 03/04/2003 9:20:19 AM PST by stylin19a (all in all - I'd rather be golfing)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: Brad Cloven
It's minus 14 degrees in Fargo this morning

I was born and raised in Grand Forks. No one needs to tell me that global warming is a huge lie. We know it already.

75 posted on 03/04/2003 9:20:57 AM PST by Mark17
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
What actual sources are you basing your theories on, gridlock? Are you in the recycling industry? Thanks.
76 posted on 03/04/2003 9:21:23 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Fidgit
How much of those recycled fibers come from curbside garbage? Those fibers come from industry. I'm sure you have that breakdown?
77 posted on 03/04/2003 9:21:30 AM PST by blackdog ("But that's what I do" A quote from my Border Collie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: stylin19a
29 palms and Yucca Valley are pretty nice, and a lot cooler than Lake Havasu in summer.........
78 posted on 03/04/2003 9:23:09 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: stylin19a
I see a rock lawn in your future. ;o)
79 posted on 03/04/2003 9:23:15 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Fidgit
Financial incentives. (like everthing else in the world) At home you recycle so you don't have to pay for a larger trash bin. At work you recycle so your company can get a "rebate" for some of its "trash" and they don't have to pay for a larger trash bin.

Poppycock.

At home you recycle so you don't get a fine.
At work you recycle so your company doesn't get a fine.

Given that you get a fine whenever you fail to recycle, there is a financial incentive to recycle. But it is not a positive incentive.

Some recycling supports itself. Nobody throws away automobiles because they have scrap value. If your company produces a lot of waste that is fairly easy to segregate and collect, then some recycling of certain materials can be a paying proposition.

But I defy you to show me a single instance where the mandated levels of recycling, sorting out all recyclable plastic, tin, aluminum, misc. metals, glass, high-grade paper, and newsprint, makes economic sense absent the threat of fines.

I'm sure some people do it, and they have their reasons. But economics is not one of them.

80 posted on 03/04/2003 9:23:55 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
Where do you live that you receive fines for not recycling?
81 posted on 03/04/2003 9:25:04 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: Fidgit
Our profits show me something completely different.

Do you compensate the individual householder for his excess labor to collect and sort recyclables?

Do you compensate the individual householder for the use of his property when he dedicates portions of his home for the purposes of recycling waste?

If not, then the net profit of your enterprise does not reflect the overall profitability of the activity.

I'm sure a lot of people are making a lot of money off recycling. But they are doing so by avoiding the many of the costs by forcing somebody else to do the work.

82 posted on 03/04/2003 9:27:37 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
You are fighting jobs my friend. The question is still....Does curbside(retail) garbage get recycled? The answer is still noooooooo.....aluminum yes.
83 posted on 03/04/2003 9:28:30 AM PST by blackdog ("But that's what I do" A quote from my Border Collie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: blackdog
**Does curbside(retail) garbage get recycled?**

This needs to be broken down further. Paper, plastic and aluminum...not garbage meant for landfill. Depending on where you reside the recycling industry is successful or not.

84 posted on 03/04/2003 9:31:56 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | View Replies]

To: Sunshine Sister
Can I ask where you got stung? :o)-{->-[ Just reply with a symbol on map provided.
85 posted on 03/04/2003 9:32:42 AM PST by blackdog ("But that's what I do" A quote from my Border Collie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
Where do you live that you receive fines for not recycling?

This is the law in all the places where I have lived in the last twenty years. These places are the Washington DC Metro Area, the San Francisco Bay Area, the Detroit Metro Area, New York City and the NYC Tri-State Area. In each and every one of these locations I have been given instructions by the local government that tells me how to recycle and informs me of the penalties that I will incur if I fail to do so.

I have not done a systematic nationwide study, but five-for-five suggests a pattern. It might be different in the stix, but I wouldn't know.

86 posted on 03/04/2003 9:33:35 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: blackdog; homeschool mama
Nope I don't have that breakdown. I only see about 40 to 50 ton a month (paper, mix and op) brought in here. Most of the MRF (curbside) fiber goes direct to the mills.
87 posted on 03/04/2003 9:33:54 AM PST by Fidgit
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
What actual sources are you basing your theories on, gridlock? Are you in the recycling industry? Thanks.

I am not aware of any recycling program that compensates householders for their excess labor and use of their property. Do you know of such a program?

88 posted on 03/04/2003 9:34:56 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
Hmmm. I'm in Northern California but there are no penalties for not recycling...and this is a large county.
89 posted on 03/04/2003 9:35:18 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
You didn't answer my question.
90 posted on 03/04/2003 9:35:50 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: alloysteel
The eco-fascists knew that recycling was a scam when they proposed it. The purpose was to make it more expensive for corporations to do business, and bring down overall corporate profits.
That's a given to anyone who's seen how they react to a proposed (or for that matter existing) recycling facility.

-Eric

91 posted on 03/04/2003 9:36:00 AM PST by E Rocc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
We have an obvious need to ask for some freeper "volunteer recyclable garbage escorts" to follow the trucks with a video camera and report back to this forum.(if we don't get arrested as refuse terrorists)
92 posted on 03/04/2003 9:38:14 AM PST by blackdog ("But that's what I do" A quote from my Border Collie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
Yep I suppose your right. However I also have to pump my own gas, take out my own garbage and do a bunch of other stuff that benifits others, So I don't get your point.
93 posted on 03/04/2003 9:39:29 AM PST by Fidgit
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: gridlock
***What actual sources are you basing your theories on, gridlock? Are you in the recycling industry? Thanks. ***

I've reposted my questions to you...in case you didn't see them. :o)

94 posted on 03/04/2003 9:43:20 AM PST by homeschool mama
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: Fidgit
Curbside fibers going direct to mills? That's funny. At a large local company that produces ten semi's a week of cardboard bales, they have to employ a compactor cop. A guy who inspects each item going into the baler. Nobody will take stuff with unknowns in there. I would find it hard to swallow that standard when curbside stuff just goes right to mills with no inspection?
95 posted on 03/04/2003 9:45:39 AM PST by blackdog ("But that's what I do" A quote from my Border Collie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: blackdog
I don't remember. I was about three at the time, maybe four. All I remember is screaming loud enough to get my Mom out of the house in record time!
96 posted on 03/04/2003 9:50:42 AM PST by Sunshine Sister
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: homeschool mama
You didn't answer my question.

My apologies. Exactly what were your questioning when you asked about "my theories". My basic point (theory, if you will) is that recycling programs do not make economic sense when they must account for all costs associated with the overall activity. If all costs are included, from the point where the waste leaves the hand of the consumer, to the point of ultimate re-use or disposal, there is no municipal solid waste recycling program in the world that would make economic sense. The material involved is just not worth enough money to pay for all the costs.

I base my "theory" on common sense and my own experience. Take your average householder. Say he dedicates six square feet of interior space and ten square feet of exterior space for recycling, and invests $25 on durable materials (bins, trashcans, etc) required. Further suppose he spend just 15 minutes a week engaged in recycling activities, and produces the prodigious total of one can of plastic bottles, one-half can of aluminum, and a twenty pound bale of paper each week.

I'm going to commit math here, so forgive me...

Where I come from, interior residential space costs about $100 a square foot, but lets suppose this householder's cost is $50. Further estimate that his exterior cost is $10 per square foot, typical in the suburbs. Add this to his $25 for recycling materials, and you have a capitalized cost of $425.00. Given an 8% internal rate of return, his weekly cost of capital is 65 cents. Also assume that this person makes a living wage of $10.00 per hour. His weekly cost of labor is $2.50. So we have a total weekly cost of $3.15.

Now are you or anybody else in the world going to pay $3.15 for a can of plastic bottles, a half-can of aluminum and a twenty pound bale of newsprint, to be picked up from an individual house? It just doesn't make economic sense. The material is not worth that much, even if it were delivered directly to your processing facility.

The way recycling makes money, where it makes money, is because nobody compensates the householder.

97 posted on 03/04/2003 9:57:14 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: 11th Earl of Mar
''I say we recycle enviromentalists. ''

No, you must not have read the article. I think we need to incinerate them instead.

98 posted on 03/04/2003 9:59:46 AM PST by MainFrame65
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: blackdog
"...Post consumer content does not come from household garbage..."
- - -
I think you have some of your terminolgy backwards.
99 posted on 03/04/2003 10:02:45 AM PST by Hanging Chad (not to be confused with "Hanging Ten" or "Hanging Wallpaper"...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Fidgit
However I also have to pump my own gas, take out my own garbage and do a bunch of other stuff that benifits others, So I don't get your point.

You pump your own gas so your car will run. You take out your owne garbage so your house doesn't fill with garbage.

Recycling programs force you to do one thing instead of another, recycling waste instead of just throwing it away. They should be evaluated on that basis, by comparing the costs of one activity against another.

100 posted on 03/04/2003 10:03:05 AM PST by gridlock (tag-line)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-125 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson