Fistgate to be Held Again on March 15

MassNews ^ | March 7, 2003 | MassNews Staff

[apeman81]

Well, Magd, the facts as exposed in the video, no matter how obtained, demonstrate the level of perversity this school thought it was its job to expose its students to.
It’s no wonder the education system is in a shambles, despite the incredible amount of money we spend, more than any other nation, per student. Instead of teaching our kids, their bent is upon instilling morals. Last time I checked, whether a kid was “tolerant” or not was the purview of the parent, not the school.

[EdReform]

"An interesting thread, with many well thought out response and much factual presentation."

Thank you! Please pass the information on.

"All for naught, however. People such as Madg will never be swayed from their position by logic and reason."

Actually, swaying madg from his position is not my intent. As I posted in another thread, madg is part of a well planned and well funded strategy that has been used by the homosexual community for years. It was documented by homosexual authors Marshall K. Kirk & Erastes Pill in The Overhauling of Straight America.

Freeper L.N. Smithee made some excellent comments in another thread. Here's an excerpt:

"The closest you will find to an "objective source" are the people who oppose them -- and I know that sounds like an absurd statement, but you have to understand: the people who are on the gay radicals' side don't believe in fairness."

Your knee-jerk response that these are "lies and half-truths put out there to get simple-minded folk all in a hissy-fit" is a good indicator of how effective the Gay-stapo's propaganda is. You would believe that inaccurate information was "put out there" for someone's twisted amusement rather than believe that there are homosexuals that -- apparently unlike the ones that you are friends with -- have the intent to subversively promote their social agenda through the schools behind parents' backs..."

[EdReform]

"The homosexual movement has a history of trying to claw its way into places its agenda doesn’t belong, not for the betterment of mankind, but simply to legitimize and normalize perverse behavior. This is apparent in the all-too-common need of homosexuals to declare their sexuality rather than simply do the job they sign on to do.

This is extremely detrimental - first, it creates conflict with others as most believe homosexuality to be wrong, and it shows that the full efforts of the employed homosexual are not going towards performing the task at hand but largely to declaring their lifestyle. When it comes to serious concerns such as the Church, schools, and the Boy Scouts that involve our children, we can’t take the risk of giving them this power to destroy the values we as parents try to instill, nor can we put our country’s welfare at stake by turning these pivotal foundational institutions and our military into homosexual social experiments.

The homosexual movement is marked by two major tendencies: the tendency to continually infiltrate all good aspects of society; and once they have achieved that, the tendency to destroy this good. Public education, the Boy Scouts, the military, and now the Catholic Church have been targeted, and all have been hurt by the effects of homosexuality. The media and the Church must break its silence towards this enemy. If they do not, the people themselves must rise up and expose it..."

-- Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, Homosexual Priests: A Time for Truth, The Washington Dispatch, May 6, 2002

[EdReform]

"Last time I checked, whether a kid was “tolerant” or not was the purview of the parent, not the school."

"Parents have the original, primary, and inalienable right to educate their children, and it is the place of schools to assist them. But rights not asserted are rights lost by default. Parental rights are not self-enforcing; they have to be exercised by vigilant and concerned parents."

-- Arthur J. Delaney, "The Grotesque World of Today’s Sex Education," New Oxford Review, p. 16, May 1996.

[apeman81]

I stand corrected. My use of video should indeed be replaced by audio. Thanks for straightening that out.
I made no assertion that the conference was affiliated directly to the school. Rather I lamented the fact that the school would go to the lengths necessary to remove student the school grounds incurring the costs to take them to an event which occupied time better spent on true education.
As for the audio recording, piss and moan as much as you will as to the alleged illegality of it, it does serve handsomely to inform taxpayers and parent alike what kind of garbage the school, through its action and expenses, exposed their children to.
Your annoying mantra about the legality of the tape is exceptionally informative. To hell with what’s on it. To hell with what the children were exposed to. They taped it illegally, by god!
Obviously, you support the school’s effort to expose children to such perversion. You believe it IS the place of the school to do so. It IS the schools job to teach morals, regardless of the position of the parents, especially if they can keep the parents unaware of such activities.
You are exposed for what you are. As you come from such an extreme position, I fear that reasoned discussion is unlikely.

[scripter]

Your link: Homosexual Priests: A Time for Truth is now indexed in the database and should probably be it's own thread...

[EdReform]

The lawbreaking workshop presenters were illegally engaged in prurient and non-educational discussions and they and their sponsor (GLSEN) need to be charged accordingly. The good citizens of Massachusetts need to resubmit Scott Whiteman's complaint and demand that both the DA and the AG publicly rule on it. If the DA and AG do not respond within 10 working days, the complaint should be filed every 10 days until a response is received.

[EdReform]

"I fear that reasoned discussion is unlikely"

Example here

[EdReform]

Freeper Clint N. Suhks posted the following:

"They claim that we are somehow violating their privacy, and they are using very sleazy, lying tactics," says Camenker. He says this included the recruitment of a 17-year-old girl to their cause. "When we deposed her, we asked what had been said that was so personal. She hadn't even heard the tape. It's impossible to tell one kid's voice from another on the tape, and she didn't even know if she was on it."

Well madg, just HOW was this 17 year-old identified and added to the suit? You're carping about violations of "privacy," yet it's the homosexual organizations themselves that outed this student and violated her privacy. So you're Ok with that? As long as Camenker, Whiteman, and the PRC get slammed? Of course, it's for the homosexual "cause" and you've already told us that you're "loving every second of it."

You see, this suit has NEVER really been about "privacy." GLAD summarizes the goal of the homosexual community best, when they state on their web page:

"GLAD is putting the right-wing on notice that they cannot use intimidation tactics to try to stop vitally important sex education information from getting to young people."

That's the heart of the matter and what the homosexual community is so upset about.

So actually, we do have a identifiable victim who, at age 17, was a minor according to section 31 of Chapter 272 of M.G.L., and was exposed to material that was of a prurient nature and non-educational.

[EdReform]

"Actually, it was the MassNews that identified her by name."

No madg, WHO identified her AND added her to the suit? (Hint - it wasn't the MassNews). She hadn't even heard the tape and couldn't be identified, so one or more of the homosexual organizations (GLAD, GLSEN, etc) went looking and recruited her specifically to be a party to this suit.

If this girl was added to the suit, then her name would have been added to the public documents filed by GLAD.

This is a continuing attempt by GLAD to extract as much money as possible from Camenker, Whiteman, and the PRC. And to make an example of them. It's apparent that their goal is to silence those who try to expose their clients' illegal activities with minor children.

[EdReform]

"Oh, and maybe you should think this through a little more thoroughly. If Camenker and Crew had not violated the law (and her privacy), then there would have been NO LAWSUIT for her to join. Uh-duh? Your ridiculous argument collapses under its own weight. This is just another example of the lawbreaking activists trying to blame everyone in sight for their own actions."

You might want to think things through even more thoroughly. If the workshop presenters wouldn't have engaged in non-educational discussions of a prurient nature, outside the scope of their employment (which is clearly a violation of sections 28, 29, and 31 of Chapter 272 of M.G.L.), then there would have been NO TAPE RECORDING AVAILABLE. Of course, if the DA had responded to Scott Whiteman's complaint, the tape wouldn't have had to be released.

The audio tape substantiated Camenker's and Whiteman's claims. And the tape revealed that discussions with similar (and even worse) obscene and harmful content are being introduced in the public school curriculum by teachers who bring in homosexual "guest speakers" to their classes. But evidently the DA and the AG are just fine with that. This is, after all, Massachusetts. And there is little doubt that the homosexual community has procured the DA's and AG's silence on the complaint.

Again, you can squeal all you want about the "illegality" of recording of the workshop, but the fact remains that Brian Camenker and Scott Whiteman had a civic duty to expose the harmful and obscene material that Mr Whiteman discovered being discussed with minors in GLSEN's workshops. It's unfortunate that Scott Whiteman's complaint was ignored by the DA.

As I stated previoulsy:

You see, this suit has NEVER really been about "privacy." GLAD summarizes the goal of the homosexual community best, when they state on their web page:

"GLAD is putting the right-wing on notice that they cannot use intimidation tactics to try to stop vitally important sex education information from getting to young people."

That's the heart of the matter and what the homosexual community is so upset about.

[EdReform]

"And how are you so sure of these allegations? How would YOU know that the girl herself did not approach GLSEN or GLAD after hearing that she had been illegally recorded?"

Brian Camenker's states that, in a deposition, the girl claimed she hadn't even heard the tape and didn't even know if she was on it. She obviously didn't "hear" anything. Of course, you could always cite a credible source (spare me the "Context Matters" link) that shows otherwise. Can you do that?

From reply 212:

"When we deposed her, we asked what had been said that was so personal. She hadn't even heard the tape. It's impossible to tell one kid's voice from another on the tape, and she didn't even know if she was on it."

"I don't think that GLSEN knew the names of those that attended the workshop. How could they possibly "recruit" anyone?"

How indeed. You've stated repeatedly that each and every student had a GENERAL parental permission slip for attending the conference. One would assume that the students' names and contact information were on those slips in order for them to be valid.

"And "recruiting" is such a ridiculous term..."

It wouldn't be impossible for GLAD to acquire the permission slips from GLSEN (or for GLSEN to offer the slips to GLAD), and use them to search for a kid they could "add" (recruit) to the suit. Afterall, it's been reported that GLAD has five lawyers working on this case, and if that's so, then it would take little time for them to find a student and try to convince him/her to join them.

(And if GLAD has actually assigned FIVE lawyers to this simple case, then that is completely absurd. It's also been reported that attorney Chester Darling's law firm is having difficulty keeping up with a large number of motions being filed in the case by GLAD. Seems that Clint N. Suhks was right about this being a "SLAP" suit).

"The suit was announced in the mainstream press, and the girl was not identified."

Ok, if that's the case, then you should have no problem producing a citation from a credible source that states this. Please post it at your earliest convenience.

"Camenker should count his lucky stars..."

And the workshop presenters should count their lucky stars that they're in Massachusetts, where the DA and the AG evidently refuse to consider any complaint filed against any member or organization in the homosexual community. Believe me, madg, I'd really like to see a public ruling from both the DA and the AG, stating specifically why the workshop presenters are in, or not in, violation of sections 28 and 29 of Chapter 272 of M.G.L. Since I have been unable to find any public ruling, I can only assume that the homosexual community has procured the DA's and the AG's silence on the complaint. You can prove my assumption incorrect by posting a credible link showing that the DA and/or the AG has issued ANY public ruling on Scott Whiteman's complaint.

"... you excuse lawbreaking and prevaricating political activists..."

No, I believe that Camenker and Whiteman had a civic duty to expose the homosexual activists and workshop presenters who, outside realm of their employment, described and depicted non-educational and prurient subject matter with minor children -- Do I need to quote Commissioner Driscoll and sections 28, 29, and 31 of Chapter 272 of M.G.L. again?

"It was the MassNews that not only identified her by name, but that ALSO proclaimed that she was a lesbian. I have no idea how they would know that..."

So is the girl openly homosexual? Did she publicly proclaim her homosexuality in school and elsewhere? If so, then what does it matter if it's reported?

"I think your senses of priority and propriety are impaired."

Hey, you're the one who thinks fisting is a "medical matter" with scientific value. I just agree with Education Commisioner Driscoll's professional judgement that 1) the "the workshops were of prurient nature, and not educational"; 2) the discussions workshop presenters had with minors were "outside the realm" of standard and proper educational guidelines, specifically AIDS/HIV prevention education; and 3) the presenters were acting outside of the scope of their employment, and they were WRONG for doing so.

[ArGee]

What "video" are you talking about? There was no "video" at the GLSEN conference, it was not held by a "school," it was not part of any school curriculum, and the lawbreaking activists that illegally taped it are being treated fairly under the law... even as they whine about "harrassment" and hypocritically complain about "being recorded."

We call this shifting the argument.

You are correct that it was an audiotape. You are correct that it was held at a non-school event that was subsidized by educational dollars rather than part of a school curriculum. You may also be correct that the taping was illegal, although that has hardly been proven.

It does not change the fact that the impact if not the intent of the conference was to provide children with a moral position on sexual behaviors, a task that should be left to the parents. And many others on this thread are correct that you are not trying to work for the good of anybody, just the advancement of a perverse agenda. They are also correct that you do so by obfustication and dissembling rather than coherent discussion. But you keep the thread bumped and you continue to give people an opportunity to expose the perversity of your position (no pun intended), and for that we should all be greatful.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

If Camenker and Crew had not violated the law (and her privacy), then there would have been NO LAWSUIT for her to join. Uh-duh?

Don't be silly. A lawsuit does not prove a violation of the law. Nor does a settlement. Only a finding by judge or jury can prove a violation of the law.

Shalom.