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MSNBC: Columbia Flight Data Recorder Found
MSNBC | 3.19.03

Posted on 03/19/2003 5:04:01 PM PST by mhking

Nothing follows....


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1feb2003; caib; columbia; columbiatragedy; nasa; spaceshuttle

1 posted on 03/19/2003 5:04:01 PM PST by mhking
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To: mhking
When it rains, it pours bump.
2 posted on 03/19/2003 5:04:54 PM PST by manna
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To: mhking; snopercod
Wow!!
3 posted on 03/19/2003 5:05:19 PM PST by Constitution Day (** RALLY FOR AMERICA: Raleigh, NC ** http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/861481/posts)
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To: manna
Maybe Osama is Next!
4 posted on 03/19/2003 5:05:37 PM PST by cmsgop ( Arby's says no more Horsey Sauce for Scott Ritter !!!!)
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To: mhking
I though NASA said there wasn't one.
5 posted on 03/19/2003 5:06:44 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: mhking
Would this thing have as much or more info than was sent via the flight telemetry?
6 posted on 03/19/2003 5:07:18 PM PST by mewzilla
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To: mhking
Interesting.
7 posted on 03/19/2003 5:07:27 PM PST by steveegg (The French have removed 1 leg from the UN; it is now LN (League of Nations).)
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To: CindyDawg
I though NASA said there wasn't one.

[shrug] I just type 'em as I find 'em...

8 posted on 03/19/2003 5:07:33 PM PST by mhking (Let's get ready to rumble!!!!!)
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To: mhking
Shuttles don't carry airliner-style FDRs, so this headline
comes across as bogus.

Having said that, there are various systems on board with
local storage, plus a particular motion image camera that
they've been looking for.

Personal recorders may also have been in use, like the
camcorder that provided the re-entry footage.
9 posted on 03/19/2003 5:07:48 PM PST by Boundless
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To: CindyDawg
IIRC, there is a data recorder, but it is not built to withstand impact as commercial aircraft. I believe it sends data continuously to ground control.
10 posted on 03/19/2003 5:08:25 PM PST by NautiNurse (Usama bin Laden has produced more tapes than Steely Dan)
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To: Boundless
Shuttles don't carry airliner-style FDRs, so this headline comes across as bogus.

That was the direct quote from MSNBC Television within the past few minutes. I'm not sure what recorder they're referring to, as I, too, thought that all telemetry was transmitted to Houston.

11 posted on 03/19/2003 5:09:18 PM PST by mhking (Let's get ready to rumble!!!!!)
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To: mhking
:')
12 posted on 03/19/2003 5:10:09 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: mhking
It's not "hardened" and I think I read that if the battery is disconnected it loses its memory. Not sure on that, though.
13 posted on 03/19/2003 5:10:38 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: mhking
all telemetry

According to Oberg, there are many data streams going to many places. There are 4 PC style computers onboard. Perhaps this is one of the hard drives.

14 posted on 03/19/2003 5:11:59 PM PST by RightWhale (Theorems link concepts: Proofs establish links)
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To: mhking
Does it indicate a hijacking?
15 posted on 03/19/2003 5:12:18 PM PST by LimitedPowers
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To: CindyDawg
I though NASA said there wasn't one.

Thats what I heard. But it makes sense there would be one on board.

While data continously downloads from the shuttle to the NASA computer where does that data go during a blackout? The blackout that occurs when shuttle reenters the atmosphere (or is that stratosphere?).

16 posted on 03/19/2003 5:12:56 PM PST by Aaron0617
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To: mhking
The whole shuttle is a data recorder/transmitter.

There is a subsystem that has some measurements that are not data linked to the ground.

If found intact, it may be useful.

17 posted on 03/19/2003 5:15:20 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: cmsgop
Maybe Osama is Next!

Found in Iraq. ;')

18 posted on 03/19/2003 5:16:40 PM PST by Rocko
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To: Aaron0617
They really do not suffer from the blackout problem any more. Sometimes the audio is affected and they switch to a different system and antennae. It has more to do with the location of the satellite.

We did not have satellites in the old days, and hence the blackouts when the capsule was surrounded by plasma from re-entry heating.

19 posted on 03/19/2003 5:20:23 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: mhking
"That was the direct quote from MSNBC Television within the past few minutes."

They're just playing catch-up with CNN who ran a crawler the day of the accident saying the shuttle was traveling at the "speed of light"
20 posted on 03/19/2003 5:24:53 PM PST by Rebelbase
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To: Aaron0617
> ... where does that data go during a blackout?

There aren't any Apollo/Gemini/Mercury-style LOS (loss of signal)
episodes anymore, because there is now a constellation of TDRS
comm sats, and they time the re-entry so that at least one of
them is visible to the orbiter inside the plasma cone.

VHF to ground is still subject to plasma blackouts, but isn't
the only voice comm anymore.

Having said that, however, there are "dropouts", due to the orbiter
tail obstructing the signal at times, and other reasons.

And an unsolved issue on STS-107 is that there were more dropouts
than usual, and this is not understood. Vaporized aluminum in
the plasma stream is one theory, but it has problems.
21 posted on 03/19/2003 5:31:11 PM PST by Boundless
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To: CindyDawg
There always was ... the confusion came because people assumed it was similar to the commercial "black box" which it's not. That's what an aerospace guy told me.
22 posted on 03/19/2003 5:33:01 PM PST by CyberAnt ( -> -> -> Oswego!!)
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To: mhking
I'm starting to hate "Nothing follows"

Mike

23 posted on 03/19/2003 5:35:10 PM PST by MichaelP
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To: cmsgop
Maybe Osama is Next!

Nah... O.J. will find the real killers.

24 posted on 03/19/2003 5:43:22 PM PST by NY.SS-Bar9
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To: jlogajan
What's the point if it's not hardened?
25 posted on 03/19/2003 5:45:01 PM PST by shadowman99
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To: Constitution Day
Wow!!

My word exactly.

26 posted on 03/19/2003 5:45:11 PM PST by Carry_Okie (Because there are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Rebelbase
They're just playing catch-up with CNN who ran a crawler the day of the accident saying the shuttle was traveling at the "speed of light"

That's better than the ABC radio reporterette who repeatedly said that it broke up at an altitude of "about 200,000mi.". The locals finally corrected her.

27 posted on 03/19/2003 5:47:01 PM PST by X-FID
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To: LimitedPowers
Yes..a box cutter was found on Catalina Island with India type symbols. Go friggin figure? Pakistani officials report that the box cutter in question originated in Afganistan from some seedy ties to Omar. Iranian mouthpieces proclaimed today that Russia provided a gross of box cutters to Islamic terrorists...thus the connection to France downing Columbia. Repeat...Go friggin figure?
28 posted on 03/19/2003 5:55:54 PM PST by Kahuna
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To: mhking
that'd be a neat trick, in that there is no flight data recorder on the shuttle.

dep

29 posted on 03/19/2003 5:58:01 PM PST by dep
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To: X-FID
That's better than the ABC radio reporterette who repeatedly said that it broke up at an altitude of "about 200,000mi.". The locals finally corrected her.

That new pretty boy Fox hired from MSNBC kept saying it broke up at 2,000 feet.

30 posted on 03/19/2003 6:06:00 PM PST by Moonman62
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To: Moonman62
That new pretty boy Fox hired from MSNBC kept saying it broke up at 2,000 feet.

Hehe another good one.

31 posted on 03/19/2003 6:11:03 PM PST by X-FID
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To: mhking
08:10 p.m., 03/19/03, Update: Columbia data recorder found; could provide key telemetry, but condition of tape not yet known

Search crews walking a grid near Hemphills, Texas, have found the shuttle Columbia's orbiter experiments recorder, or OEX, a tape recorder that stored key data about the shuttle's performance during re-entry. The recorder was found essentially intact, according to a spokeswoman for the Columbia Accident Investigation Board, but the device may have suffered heat damage and in any case, the condition of the data tape inside is not yet known. But if data on the tape can be recovered, NASA investigators could find a gold mine of information shedding more light on the aerodynamic forces acting on the spacecraft as its flight control system struggled to keep the doomed ship on course.

"We have no way of knowing whether the data's in a condition where it can be recovered or not," said Laura Brown, a spokeswoman for the CAIB. "They suspect there may be heat damage. We just don't know what condition it might be in."

The OEX recorder was found essentially intact on the ground. Seventeen years ago, divers recovered tapes from the submerged wreckage of the shuttle Challenger and managed to extract data despite extensive damage. Engineers are hopeful they can recover data from Columbia's recorders as well.

"They're taking it to JSC (Johnson Space Center) for analysis," Brown said. "They'll clean it and they're developing a testing plan for it. They want to be as careful as they can with it so they don't lose any data."

The recorder stores data on aerodynamic pressure, temperature, vibration and other variables. Only Columbia, NASA's original space shuttle, is equipped with an OEX recorder as part of a complex system used to collect data during the ship's initial test flights. The OEX recorder should not be confused with the shuttle's operational recorders, which store additional flight data as well as voice traffic from the crew's intercom. The OPS recorders have not yet been located.

Here is a bit of background on the OEX recorders from NASA's shuttle reference book:

The support system for the orbiter experiments was developed to record data obtained and to provide time correlation for the recorded data. The information obtained through the sensors of the OEX instruments must be recorded during the orbiter mission because there is no real-time or delayed downlink of OEX data. In addition, the analog data produced by certain instruments must be digitized for recording. The support system for OEX comprises three subsystems: the OEX recorder, the system control module and the pulse code modulation system. The SCM is the primary interface between the OEX recorder and the experiment instruments and between the recorder and the orbiter systems. It transmits operating commands to the experiments. After such commands are transmitted, it controls the operation of the recorder to correspond to the experiment operation. The SCM is a microprocessor-based, solid-state control unit that provides a flexible means of commanding the OEX tape recorder and the OEX and modular auxiliary data system.

The PCM system accepts both digital and analog data from the experiments. It digitizes the analog data and molds it and the digital data received directly from the experiments into a single digital data stream that is recorded on the OEX recorder. The PCM also receives time information from the orbiter timing buffer and injects it into the digital data stream to provide the required time correlation for the OEX data.

The SCM selects any of 32 inputs and routes them to any of 28 recorder tracks or four-line driver outputs to the T-0 umbilical; executes real-time commands; controls experiments and data system components; and provides manual, semiautomatic and automatic control.

The recorder carries 9,400 feet of magnetic tape that permits up to two hours of recording time at a tape speed of 15 inches per second. After the return of the orbiter, the data tape is played back for recording on a ground system. The tape is not usually removed from the recorder.

32 posted on 03/19/2003 6:12:26 PM PST by Moonman62
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To: Boundless
"VHF to ground ..."

I think you mean "UHF to ground ..."

33 posted on 03/19/2003 6:17:11 PM PST by _Jim (//NASA has a better safety record than NASCAR\\)
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To: Boundless
TDRS comm sats

Addendum - the TDRS satellites aren't just used for 'comms' - they, the satellites, also produce signals that are used for tracking/on-board position plotting by the shuttle (as well as other space-destined platforms and payloads, like other staellites) ...

TDRS = Tracking and Data Relay Satellite ...

see: http://nmsp.gsfc.nasa.gov/tdrss/ in particular http://nmsp.gsfc.nasa.gov/tdrss/tracking.html

TDRSS tracking support provides all position, time, and frequency data necessary to maintain precise customer spacecraft orbit prediction (acquisition), orbit determination (tracking), and attitude determination and control.

34 posted on 03/19/2003 6:23:21 PM PST by _Jim (//NASA has a better safety record than NASCAR\\)
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To: shadowman99
What's the point if it's not hardened?

It's for post flight performance evaluation. Not really meant for crash diagnosis.

35 posted on 03/19/2003 7:30:04 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: mhking
BumP..

AP version Here

36 posted on 03/19/2003 7:51:25 PM PST by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi ... God Bless Our Troops and their families)
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To: mhking; TLBSHOW
A picture of the recorder is here:

http://www.caib.us/news/photos/photos_20030320/default.html

It looks to me as if it is in good enough shape (note the unscorched wires through the holes inside the box) that it may be reasonable to expect that the tape inside is relatively undamaged and some if not all data can be recovered.
37 posted on 03/20/2003 10:33:39 AM PST by SteveH
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To: Moonman62
Only Columbia, NASA's original space shuttle, is equipped with an OEX recorder as part of a complex system used to collect data during the ship's initial test flights.

Aha! Columbia, the flying environmental testbed model.

38 posted on 03/20/2003 10:39:01 AM PST by RightWhale (Theorems link concepts: Proofs establish links)
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To: SteveH; First_Salute; XBob; brityank
I'm sorry, but that picture is not a tape recorder from the shuttle.

I have personally laid my hands on the OPS, Payload, and OEX recorders flown on the shuttles, and that object is not one of them. Trust me.

I don't believe they fly the Payload recorders any more, but the OPS recorders are mounted on coldplates, not pieces of structural channel. They have connectors on the end, not little holes. They have small fins or channels on the machined aluminum anodized lids, with about 40 screws holding the lid to the case. They look nothing like this picture.

The OEX recorder looks almost identical to the payload recorders, but not mounted on a coldplate. It's air cooled.

Yes, the shuttle does have recorders onboard, but not "hardened" like those on an airliner.

OTOH, these recorders are built like tanks, and may well have survived. They are 1" tape, concentric reels (that's right, one reel on top of the other), originally manufactured by Odetics (now Kodak, I think) in Pasadena, CA.

The Operational [OPS] recorders (there are two of them, OPS-1 and OPS-2) record the same data and voice going to the ground (one at a time) plus SSME data on ascent. The OEX [Orbiter Experiments] recorder has only engineering data such as temperatures, strains, acoustics, etc., which is NOT downlinked. This one would be a gold mine for the investigation.

39 posted on 03/20/2003 5:04:59 PM PST by snopercod
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To: snopercod
I'm sorry, but that picture is not a tape recorder from the shuttle.

Very interesting... this seems to be from the CAIB's official site. What to make of this? I notice when I position my computer's mouse over the photos, it says "Right main landing gear door" and "right main landing gear tire", so maybe there is some mixup at the CAIB website webmaster level...

40 posted on 03/20/2003 5:27:55 PM PST by SteveH
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To: snopercod
Hey!

That's my old 8-track in-the-trunk tape deck!

41 posted on 03/20/2003 5:34:07 PM PST by First_Salute
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To: SteveH; First_Salute; RightWhale; mhking; mewzilla; manna; Constitution Day; cmsgop; CindyDawg; ...
I stand corrected. Apparently my memory fails me.

I contacted some of the INS guys I used to work with at KSC and they confirmed that the photos were, in fact, the OEX recorder.

In the first photo, the screws holding down the cover were not visible, being packed with mud, apparently. You could see them better in the photo from the connector end.

They told me that the metal channels on the bottom were the shock mounts.

Anyway, I was wrong. I apologize to all who read my prior post.

42 posted on 03/31/2003 1:39:35 PM PST by snopercod
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To: snopercod
Wow--the Columbia disaster seems as though a lifetime ago these days. Information overload.

Thanks for clarifying the info.

43 posted on 03/31/2003 1:48:58 PM PST by NautiNurse (Usama bin Laden has produced more tapes than Steely Dan)
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To: Boot Hill
Thunk.
44 posted on 03/31/2003 3:23:48 PM PST by Carry_Okie
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To: snopercod
Roger that.
45 posted on 03/31/2003 3:53:41 PM PST by _Jim ( // NASA has a better safety record than NASCAR \\)
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To: SteveH
Box is scarcely dented, the wires are "pulled out" as the shuttle broken up around it, but they are n't burned up.

Wonder if the experimental package recorder will be found so the "experimental results" (I still think parts of this mission were military related) can be recovered.

Unusually high orbit angle (going over Israel = going over Iraq/Iran/Pak./south Afghanistan) and all-military crew usually indicates a classified mission.
46 posted on 03/31/2003 4:02:41 PM PST by Robert A. Cook, PE (ABBCNNBCBS (continue to) Lie!)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Mark....
47 posted on 03/31/2003 4:03:31 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Thud
ping
48 posted on 03/31/2003 4:10:17 PM PST by Dark Wing
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To: snopercod; Robert A. Cook, PE; All
I stand corrected. Apparently my memory fails me.

No problemo :-).

Box is scarcely dented, the wires are "pulled out" as the shuttle broken up around it, but they are n't burned up.

Wonder if the experimental package recorder will be found so the "experimental results" (I still think parts of this mission were military related) can be recovered.

Unusually high orbit angle (going over Israel = going over Iraq/Iran/Pak./south Afghanistan) and all-military crew usually indicates a classified mission.

Interesting; see here for some initial (apparently unclassified :-) analysis.

49 posted on 03/31/2003 5:43:14 PM PST by SteveH
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To: NautiNurse
Yes, it pretty much validates the cause: Damage to the leading edge on liftoff, probably by ice bound insulation.

The failure by Dittamore to task a spy scope to observe the shuttle (and it was offered), will way on that mans soul forever...

Mike

50 posted on 03/31/2003 5:53:02 PM PST by MichaelP
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