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On The Edge With the New FN P90 5.7x28mm
The arms page. ^ | FR Post 3-20-2003 | by Al Paulson

Posted on 03/21/2003 4:48:38 AM PST by vannrox

On The Edge

With the New FN P90 5.7x28mm
by Al Paulson

Military organizations have struggled for generations with two frequently overlapping problems: (1) how to arm troops whose primary mission is something other than the use of small arms; and (2) how to arm troops who need compact firepower for conducting special operations. A remarkable array of pistols, submachind guns and carbines have been fielded over the years in an, attempt to give people such as vehicle drivers, operators of crew-served weapons, support personnel and special operators a weapon with the optimum mix of compact size, hit probability, sustained firepower and terminal ballistics. Recent decades have also seen a similar quest in law enforcement to provide superior sidearms and auxiliary weapons for officers facing a changing tactical environment. The result is that sidearms, submachine guns and carbines developed for the aforementioned special military needs have become widely used tools within law enforcement. One of the most provocative attempts to solve the common requirements of both the military and law enforcement is the select-fire P90 Personal Defense Weapon designed and manufactured by Fabrique National Herstal SA of Belgium.

Russian PSM

It's interesting that one aspect of the changing tactical environment faced by both the military and law enforcement is that an armed opponent may be wearing body armor. In the late 1970s, the former Soviet Union was the first major power to develop a new class of pistol cartridge, the 5.45x18mm PMT, which was designed to penetrate standard body armor with ease, with the ancillary benefits of improving hit probability and minimizing recoil. Developed by Aleksandr Bochkin in 1979, the bottle-necked cartridge appears to be a scaled-down version of the 5.45x39mm rifle round adopted by the Soviets in 1974 for the AK-74 assault rifle. The Soviets developed a new pistol for the new 5.45x18mm round called the Pistolet Samozaryadniy Malogabaritniy, the "Miniature Semiautomatic Pistol" or PSM for short. Designed by Tikkon Lashnev, Anatoliy Simarin and Lev Kulikov, the PSM superficially resembles a Walther PP pistol and will penetrate up to 55 layers of kevlar at realistic engagement distances. With a steel core projectile weighing 2.4-2.6 grams (37-41 grains, which is less than half the weight of the 9x18mm Makarov round it replaced), a muzzle velocity of 315 mps (1,033 fps) and a powder charge of 0.15 gram (2.3 grains), the 5.45x18mm PMT cartridge also provides a relatively flat trajectory and modest recoil. These qualities improve hit probability when troops of average skill use the PSM as a defensive weapon.

NATO Request

Some NATO planners subsequently became concerned about the issue of body armor on the battlefield and decided that the 9x19mm cartridge was now obsolete, since it wouldn't penetrate the body armor they imagined would become standard equipment for infantry troops. These NATO planners informally approached the small-arms industry about the possibility of developing a new class of cartridge to replace the 9x19mm NATO round for personal defense. Only two companies were willing to invest the substantial R&D funds on such a speculative venture; Fabrique Nationale of Belgium and Giat of France began the development of new bottle-neck cartridges in the mid-1980s.

Gun/Cartridge Details

The two companies took somewhat different approaches. Giat concentrated on developing a new cartridge resembling a .30 Luger round necked down to .22 caliber, which they called the 5.7x22mm. Fabrique Nationale not only developed a larger round, the 5.7x28mm, but FN also developed a series of innovative weapons around the new cartridge: a select-fire bullpup weapon with a 50-round horizontal magazine on top of the receiver and an extremely accurate, lightweight (19 ounce), high capacity (20 round) pistol called the Five-Seven. FN publicly announced they were developing a personal defense weapon in 1989 which was scheduled for production 1990. Ironically, however, the P90 was not named for the year of its initial production, but rather for FN's "Project 9.0" which spawned it.

When Giat became the parent company of Fabrique Nationale, Giat abandoned the 5.7x22mm project in favor of FN's more advanced project for several reasons. (1) FN's 5.7x28mm cartridge met all of the NATO requirements. And (2) Giat didn't have a weapon designed for its cartridge, but FN had already developed the P90 for its new cartridge. The first public demonstration of the Five-seveN pistol subsequently took place in 1995, and an improved variant went into production in May 1998. The external ballistics provided by FN's 5.7x28mm cartridge are vastly superior to the performance provided by the Russian 5.45x18mm PMT cartridge. As of this writing, the P90 has been adopted by more than a dozen countries in limited numbers.

With an overall length of just 19.7 inches (.50.0 cm), the P90 is considerably shorter than the 9x19mm H&K MP5 submachine gun or the 5.56x45mm Colt M4 carbine. The P90 weighs 5.9 pounds (2.5 kg) with an empty magazine and 6.6 pounds (3.0 kg) with a fully loaded 50-round magazine, which is similar to the weight of an MP5 with a 30-round magazine. The P90 is just 8.25 inches (21.0 cm) high with a magazine fitted to the weapon.

The P90 features an optical reflex sight (with no magnification), and a three-position rotary selector beneath the trigger with positions marked "S" for Safe, "1" for semiautomatic and "A" for Automatic. When set on A, the selector provides a two-stage trigger similar to the Steyr AUG. Pull the trigger back a little for semiautomatic fire and pull the trigger fully to the rear for full-auto fire. A cyclic rate of 900 rpm enables the operator to obtain two- or three-shot bursts. Shot dispersion remains remarkably tight, thanks in part to the fact that the 5.7x28mm cartridge has about one-third of the recoil impulse produced by the 5.56x45mm round used in the M16 family of weapons. Apparent recoil and shot dispersion are also mitigated by twin operating (recoil) springs and guide rods which, like the trigger, are reminiscent of the Steyr AUG. Sal Fanelli of FN Manufacturing Inc. puts on a particularly impressive demonstration, where he shoots a 50-round burst of tracers into the center of mass in a Milpark target at 50 meters (55 yards). His tightest 50-round burst to date measured 9.5 inches (24 cm).

Three rounds are available for the P90 at this time. The standard ball round, called the SS190, features an overall length of 1.6 inches (40.5 mm), a projectile weight of 31.0 grains (2.02 grams) and a muzzle velocity of 2,345 fps (715 mps). The SS190 projectile features steel core in front of an aluminum core toward the base. The bullet penetrates about 10 inches (26 cm) of 10 percent ballistic gelatin, according to testing conducted at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy in September 1997. The SS190 round will also penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar, the typical "Flak jacket" (including CRISAT protection, which is a combination of titanium and Kevlar) worn by infantry to protect them from shrapnel produced by exploding devices, or a standard PASGT (U.S. Kevlar) helmet at 150 meters (164 yards), which is the effective range of the P90 Personal Defense Weapon. The weapon will still defeat Level 3 body armor at 200 meters (219 yards). The "maximum effective range" using the NATO definition (the maximum range where a weapon's projectile will still deliver 85 joules on target) is 400 meters (437 yards). Thus, according to NATO standards, the P90 is theoretically able to deliver a lethal wound on a protected target at 200m and an unprotected target at 400m if the round hits a vital area. Personally, I would not be enthusiastic about engaging targets beyond 150m with the standard SS190 round.

The subsonic SB193 round used for this testing features a lead core boattail bullet with a projectile weight of 55.0 grains (3.58 grams) and a muzzle velocity of 998 fps (304 mps) as measured by a P.A.C.T MKIV timer/chronograph with MKV skyscreens set 24.0 inches apart and the start screen 8.0 feet from the muzzle (P.A.C.T, Dept. GW/LE, P.O. Box 531525, Grand Prairie, TX 75053; 214-641-0049). A new subsonic round featuring a 77-grain (5.0 gram) projectile moving at the same velocity as the older subsonic round is about to go into production, but no further details were available at press time. A tracer round designated the L191 is also available. The SS190 round weighs about half as much as a 9x19mm or 5.56x45mm round, so carrying a given amount of extra ammunition would be less burdensome for personnel already concerned with impedimenta. Conversely, special operators could carry twice as much ammunition for the same weight.

P90 Operation

Despite the fact that the P90 Personal Defense Weapon fires a bottle-necked cartridge, which looks something like a downsized .22 Hornet, the weapon fires using an unusual method of operation that might be described as a cross between the short recoil and simple Bergmann-Bayard straight blowback principles. Upon firing, the 10.35-inch (26.3 cm) barrel and bolt recoil rearward for about 0.030 of an inch (0.76 mm), enabling the pressure in the barrel to drop to a safe level. When the barrel (which features a 1 in 9 inch rate of twist) stops its rearward travel, the bolt continues rearward in straight blowback fashion. FN Herstal SA seems to have developed a unique flavor of delayed blowback operation. Unlike the typical submachine gun, however, the P90 fires from the closed bolt to maximize semiautomatic accuracy. Recoil is brisk but very smooth, and cycling is reliable thanks in part to an anti-bounce weight in the bolt, which is operated by one of the main operating (recoil) springs. Polymers are extensively used throughout the P90 to reduce both the weight and the cost of the weapon. The human engineering of the weapon is outstanding and ambidextrous.

A variety of features enhance the ambidextrous qualities of the P90. Both sides of the weapon feature a charging handle, auxiliary fixed sights and a magazine release. The manual selector below the trigger can be operated from either side of the trigger. The stock and grips are symmetrical. And the weapon ejects downward, so lefties don't need to worry about hot brass in the face.

One of the most interesting features of the P90, which helps make the weapon so compact, is the polycarbonate 50-round magazine that locks in place between the charging handles and the optical sight. The magazine features a follower with rollers and a constant-force spring that make loading a 50-round magazine easy instead of the usual thumb-busting exercise in frustration. But the most noteworthy aspect of the magazine design is that loading one cartridge forces the rounds under it to eventually rotate 90 degrees to the right so they can slide into a double stack of cartridges in the magazine body.

This rotation occurs in stepwise fashion. The first round in the magazine sits in the magazine's feed lips at the 0 degree position (where it will be aligned with the chamber when the magazine is fitted to the weapon). Inserting a second cartridge forces the cartridge under it to rotate to 82 or 83 degrees from the bore angle. Adding another cartridge to the magazine pushes the original round to the 87 degree position. Adding a fourth cartridge forces the original Cartridge to the 90 degree position in the main body of the magazine. Thus, the cartridges go through a four-step process to become fully aligned in a double stack within the magazine.

Versatile Optics

The optical sight is made from a solid piece of glass so there's no risk of nitrogen leaking and subsequent fogging in the field. It has two complementary reticle patterns for differing lighting conditions.

A day reticle, which is projected into the sight from the front, features a circular reticle which I particularly like since it provides very rapid target acquisition throughout the effective range of the weapon. The reticle has several markings which complement each other. A very large circular reticle provides fast target acquisition at panic-close range, while a much smaller circle is optimized for target acquisition at 100 meters but works very well at closer ranges. A tiny dot inside the smallest circle can be used for maximum finesse; this dot lies 3.7 inches (94 mm) above the center of the bore.

A low-light reticle, which is illuminated by a replaceable tritium cell, is projected into the optical sight from the rear. It is normally invisible in bright daylight conditions unless the sight is shaded by the brim of a large hat. A horizontal reticle runs across the center of the field from one side to the other, and a vertical reticle runs from the bottom of the field to the small circle. These lines form three legs of a traditional crosshair reticle, which can be quite useful inside dark buildings or during low-light operations outside. In those relatively rare lighting conditions where both the day and night reticles are visible, the sight picture is still uncluttered enough to provide rapid target acquisition. This is a very well-engineered optical sight. I wish it were available for the 5.56x45mm M4A1 carbine as well.

Controls/Safeties

The manual selector is positive and quiet, but not as instinctive or fast as the selector on an MP5 submachine gun or M16-type weapon. Other safety features include a safety sear that holds the hammer until the bolt (which FN calls the breech block assembly) has fully closed behind the chamber, and an inertial safety that locks the sear if the weapon is dropped (solving a problem that caused substantial casualties during World War II). Unlike most submachine guns, the P90 is a very safe weapon to handle in the rough and tumble real world. The P90 also has a very high resistance to cook-offs following prolonged full-auto fire. Most end-users fielding this weapon carry a maximum ammunition load of 400 rounds, and the P90 demonstrated no cook-off problems when 400 rounds were dumped as rapidly as possible downrange.

A final curiosity is that the design and materials of the P90 also make the weapon very easy to clean, a process that only takes about four minutes. This appeals to military SpecOps personnel, who tend to have a special affection for weapons that require a minimum of maintenance and, therefore, don't cut into their "Miller Time."

In the next issue we'll conduct a detailed test and evaluation of the P90's performance. We'll also discuss the dramatic operational (i.e., combat) debut of the P90 and implications of that experience for the law-enforcement community. FN will be marketing the P90 and silencer to both military and law enforcement through their subsidiary FN Manufacturing, Inc. located in Columbia, SC. Products are expected to be available in quantity in late 1998 or early 1999...

first published in the November 1998 edition of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Government; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; blued; bullet; crime; design; fn; freedom; fun; gun; liberty; miltech; muzzle; new; p90; recoil; science; technique; technology; unusual
I can't wait to be able to buy one of these babies!
1 posted on 03/21/2003 4:48:38 AM PST by vannrox
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To: vannrox
It looks very interesting, I would love to try it out.
2 posted on 03/21/2003 4:51:24 AM PST by exnavy
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To: vannrox
With that magazine configuration, it looks like the
round has to rotate 90 degrees to get in the chamber.
That seems a bit odd.
But I guess that's why they say it is an innovative design.
3 posted on 03/21/2003 4:51:42 AM PST by error99 ("I believe stupidity should hurt."...used by permission from null and void all copyrights apply...)
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To: *bang_list
BANG
4 posted on 03/21/2003 4:56:14 AM PST by vannrox (The Preamble to the Bill of Rights - without it, our Bill of Rights is meaningless!)
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To: error99
..
....
....
..
5 posted on 03/21/2003 4:59:47 AM PST by vannrox (The Preamble to the Bill of Rights - without it, our Bill of Rights is meaningless!)
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To: vannrox
You could disguise it as a boombox!
6 posted on 03/21/2003 5:02:02 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: vannrox
OK.
I want one.
7 posted on 03/21/2003 5:02:16 AM PST by error99 ("I believe stupidity should hurt."...used by permission from null and void all copyrights apply...)
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To: exnavy

Manufacturer:  Fabrique National, Herstal, Belgium
Type: Selective fire submachine gun
Caliber:  5.7X28mm SS 190
Operation:  Blowback
Weight:  6.6 lbs., loaded
Overall Length:  19.7 inches
Barrel Length: 9.5 inches
Magazine Capacity:  50 rounds
Rate of Fire:  200 rpm on automatic
Muzzle Velocity:  2,330 fps
Effective Range:  200 meters

 

The Weapon

The FN P90 submachine gun, along with the FiveseveN pistol, were designed to give military personnel a system of weapons that were smaller than conventional rifles and carbines, but retained the ability to penetrate soft armor and combat helmets.  The P90 is largely constructed of polymers, which contribute to its light weight and unique profile.  At less than twenty inches in overall length, the weapon is compact and maneuverable, with controls and straight down ejection that make it entirely
ambidextrous.

 A revolutionary feature of the P90 is the see-through, double column, polymer magazine.  The magazine rests atop the weapon, parallel to the barrel, as can be seen in the above picture.  The cartridges are actually held perpendicular to the barrel's axis, bullets pointing toward the operator's left, and each round is rotated 90 degrees for chambering.  In spite of the compactness of the design, the magazine holds 50 rounds of 5.7mm ammunition.

This submachine gun is equipped with a 1X optical sighting system with low light reticle, and has iron sights on each side of the scope, for left- or right-handed shooters.  There is an optional built-in laser sight, and a rail to mount flashlights or lasers on either side of the optical sight.  A brass catcher is available that snaps onto the ejection port at the bottom of the weapon.  It has a capacity of 100 empty cases.

The P90 can be fitted with a suppressor that is 7.9 inches long and 1.6 inches in diameter.  Constructed of steel and aluminum, it weighs only 0.88 pounds.  When used in conjunction with the
Sb 193 subsonic ammunition, a 30 db reduction in sound is claimed.

The Ammunition

The 5.7X28mm cartridge is something of an intermediate between the 5.56X45mm and 9X19mm NATO rounds.  This diminutive round is only 1.6 inches in overall length, with a case diameter that is slightly more than half that of the 9mm.  The ammunition is only about half the weight of the 9mm as well- a mere 93 grains per ball round.  Recoil impulse is on par with .22 Rimfire rounds, even with a chamber pressure that exceeds 49,000 lbs./psi.
 
There are currently five types of ammunition available in 5.7X28mm:  ball, tracer, subsonic, blank, and dummy.  The SS 190 ball cartridge is topped with a 31 gr. steel-jacketed, dual core projectile.  A steel penetrator is located in the tip of the bullet, as in the 5.56mm SS 109 projectile, but the aft portion is filled with aluminum, instead of the more conventional lead.  Muzzle velocity is about 2,330 feet per second out of the P90 SMG, which results in a muzzle energy of about 374 ft-lbs.

The SS 190 bullet was designed to penetrate up to Level IIIA soft body armor.  Testing indicates that it will barely penetrate a 12 inch block of ballistic gelatin, and will penetrate less than 10 inches of gelatin after defeating a ballistic vest.  Though some 15 countries use the P90 and FiveseveN systems, the weapon has apparently been used in actual combat only once:  six suppressed P90's were used by Peruvian forces during the raid on the Japanese embassy.  Unfortunately, results are classified.

Enter the IWBA

The January, 2000, issue of the American Rifleman magazine contains a letter written by Dr. Martin L. Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association.  In his correspondence, Dr. Fackler blasts the magazine for publishing a previous article which insinuated that the 31 gr. SS 190 projectile produces a wound cavity similar to the 62 gr. SS 109 bullet used in the M16A2.  Calling such a comparison "an absurd exaggeration," he noted that the P90 bullet does not match the "wounding capacity of a well-designed, expanding 9mm handgun bullet."  The doctor further stated that the 5.7mm projectile is about equal to the .22 WMR in actual wound potential.

tangofox's Take

For better or worse, this author believes the P90 to be a harbinger of things to come.  Polymers, bullpup stocks, small-caliber ammunition, optical sights, and ambidextrous operation are here and here to stay.  Say goodbye to wood, leather, conventional layout, and iron sights (except as backups) for military arms of the future.  Illuminated reticles are becoming the rule, rather than the exception, and this is a good thing.  At least most countries are adopting weapons for the next generation that do not require batteries, unlike the United States.

In an admittedly apples and oranges comparison, the muzzle energy of the 5.7mm ball round (374 ft-lbs.) is about equal to that of the 9mm NATO and .45 ACP.  Since projectile weight and muzzle velocity for the Sb 193 subsonic round were not available, the author used the 31 gr. weight of the SS 190 bullet and the arbitrary assignment of 1000 fps as a (barely) subsonic muzzle velocity to obtain a muzzle energy of only 68.9 ft-lbs.!  A 40 gr. bullet would raise energy by 20 foot pounds, but that is still less than a .22 Long Rifle when fired from a rifle-length barrel. 

Is the little 5.7X28mm round up to the task?  That is the $64,000 question.  There are wildly differing accounts of the cartridge's wounding potential.  One would think that if the P90 had been a great success in the Japanese Embassy raid, Fabrique National would be trumpeting the results to generate more sales.  But, the world must wait until the weapon sees more combat use to see if this is a revolution in small arms ammunition or a flash in the pan.
   

8 posted on 03/21/2003 5:02:21 AM PST by vannrox (The Preamble to the Bill of Rights - without it, our Bill of Rights is meaningless!)
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To: vannrox
I have never met a bullpup I've liked..including the AUG
AR15 type weapon with an AK type gas system in a 6mm variant please..and keep it light & simple
9 posted on 03/21/2003 5:06:38 AM PST by joesnuffy
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: vannrox
I like. BFL
11 posted on 03/21/2003 5:51:50 AM PST by oyez (This country is too good for some people.....)
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To: joesnuffy
I think you described Kel-Tec's SU-16. An exploded drawing was on another thread with the parts labeled and numbered.

I would like to see a civilian semi P90.
12 posted on 03/21/2003 7:26:47 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: vannrox
The prefered weapon of Col. Jack O'Niell (two L's)and his team from SG-1.
13 posted on 03/21/2003 8:11:33 AM PST by AFreeBird
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To: AFreeBird
A cursory examination of ballistics suggests that the basic concept for this round is nothing all that new.

The old C-96 "Broomhandle" Mauser was designed around a revoutionary cartridge for the time - the bottle-necked .30 Mauser which could kick out a 90-grain .308" round-nose FMJ slug at velocities exceeding 1,000 FPS. It had a reputation for impressive accuracy and effectiveness at ranges well beyond those normally considered for other handguns of the period, especially when equipped with a detatchable combination holster / shoulder stock.

Sir Winston Churchill in his youger Military days supposedly used and was quite fond of one - as were many Russians.

Knowing a good thing when they saw it, the Russians developed a Browning-inspired T-33 TOKAREV pistol around a rather "juiced-up" version of the .30 Mauser, the .30 Tokarev which in normal service loadings achieves velocities in the 1,400 to 1,600FPS range - pretty impressive for a handgun, and I have read claims that it was, and perhaps still is, the most powerful conventional Military handgun cartridge. It blows the 9X19 MM NATO away, and has a reputation for defeating many types of soft body armor.

In the 1950's Czeckoslovakia modified the rolling-lock breech system of the German MP-40 (also used, we are told, in the P-5) to a semi-auto Military pistol; the CZ-52 chambered for the .30 TOK, also known as the 7.62 X 25MM.

This round was used with some success in submachine guns of several Nations, including the Russian PPSH, and remained popular until obsoleted by the 7.62 X 39 Kalisnakov.

I recently bought a CZ-52, and it is a well made, interesting pistol. The 7.62X25 is a peppy little round indeed, and apparently can be reloaded with a 55 grain saboted .223" (5.56MM) bullet and stepped up to around (as I recall) around 2,300FPS - not bad for a sidearm!

One might speculate that simply necking the .30 TOKAREV to 5.56MM might provide similar carachteristics to the 5.7X28MM developed for this new system. I would not be the least bit surprised if that is essentially just what it is.

If I had my 'druthers and no limit of funds and machine-shop resources, I would be inclined to go with a 7MM using a 65-75 grain projectile.

This new P90 looks as if it might have potential for use as a Police primary weapon; nearly as compact as a pistol but at close ranges nearly as effective as a subgun. The 5.7MM HV round would not be so apt to riccochet off of pavement, vehicles, buildings etc. and pose a threat to innocents downrange as the 9MM etc. would, as these rounds tend to disintegrate on impact. After a couple of hundred Meters, velocity would drop off so as to minimize collatteral damage downrange. How often do LEOs have to engage beyond 25 Meters, anyway?

Rip a couple of punks in two (justly, of course) with one of these little dandies and I'll guarentee that the local Hooligans will treat your Officers with a whole lot more respect for a while!

14 posted on 03/21/2003 9:49:50 AM PST by Uncle Jaque (MOXIE(R); It ain't for everyone, Y'know...)
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To: Pavlovs Dog
Im (sic) battening down the hatches right now waiting for the pedantic johnny one notes to come out of the woodwork and pick apart my post for technical accuracy and political correctness.

Sure, I'll give it a go. :-)

The pistol cannot be owned by civilians because it can readily penetrate body armor, it in fact was designed for that purpose.

The ammunition was designed for that purpose, not the pistol.

J1N

15 posted on 03/21/2003 10:52:40 AM PST by Taipei Personality
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To: vannrox
Related thread on HKs PDW solution

HK G36C and MP7 PDW

16 posted on 03/21/2003 10:57:40 AM PST by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: vannrox
The P-90 is nice
but I guess I'm just an old fashioned guy!
17 posted on 03/21/2003 11:03:42 AM PST by sonofatpatcher2 (Love & a .45-- What more could you want, campers? };^)
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To: Taipei Personality
the FiveseveN ammo is not available for civilian purchase
and the P90 is a tad short for a legal US civilian rifle
Overall Length: 19.7 in.


BATF regulations: All components of this system are tightly regulated by BATF. The P90 (NFA, Class III weapon) can only be sold and registered to a law enforcement agency. The Five-seveN pistol is slightly different. The first sale, which requires the pistol to be legally imported into the US, requires the same procedure as the P90. A BATF Form 6 is needed which the chief or the second in command must sign. The pistol can then be removed from the Custom Bonded Warehouse and shipped to the agency. The ammunition is controlled in much the same manner, an approved BATF Form 6 is required then the ammunition can be shipped direct to the agency.


http://www.fnmfg.com/products/p90/p90.htm
18 posted on 03/21/2003 9:40:58 PM PST by drZ
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To: error99
tobad civis are exempt:
Suggested Price:
(Law Enforcement agencies only- 5.7 x 28 caliber weapons are not available to the general public)

P90STD: $1,250
P90STD Auto: $1,350

there are airsoft P90s...
http://www.mfiap.com/airsoft/p90.htm
19 posted on 03/21/2003 9:49:42 PM PST by drZ
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To: vannrox
I would love to own one of these babies. But our government doesn't trust us with such weapons and they are illegal to own. I thought the 2nd Amendment said our right to bear arms shall not be infringed? According to a lot of gun owners that just means hunting rifles. People need to study the Bill of Rights more and learn what it really means.


20 posted on 03/22/2003 3:49:33 PM PST by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: Shooter 2.5
I would like to see a civilian semi P90.

I would like to see SCOTUS rule a civilian can own a real P90.

21 posted on 03/25/2003 1:56:15 PM PST by ctdonath2
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To: Uncle Jaque
In the 1950's Czeckoslovakia modified the rolling-lock breech system of the German MP-40 (also used, we are told, in the P-5) to a semi-auto Military pistol; the CZ-52 chambered for the .30 TOK, also known as the 7.62 X 25MM.

Well, no. The MP40 is straight blowback. The Stecke-lock roller locking of the Cz52 is more akin to that found on the German MG42 and developmental Stg-45 assault rifle designs, said to be German developments of prototypes taken during the invasions of Poland and Czechoslovokia.

The German Walther P5 pistol is a development of the wartime P.38 with a lifting wedge type locking system- though if you meant the H&K MP-5 submachinegun, yes, it does indeed have a roller-locked mechanism.

I recently bought a CZ-52, and it is a well made, interesting pistol. The 7.62X25 is a peppy little round indeed, and apparently can be reloaded with a 55 grain saboted .223" (5.56MM) bullet and stepped up to around (as I recall) around 2,300FPS - not bad for a sidearm!

The 7,62x25 is indeed *peppy*, a very reliably fed cartridge due to its bottlenecked configuration, and very suitable with reloading with bullets of .308 to .311 in diameter, both lead and jacketed...and the 109-grain tracer bullet of the .30 carbine works nicely, too.

One might speculate that simply necking the .30 TOKAREV to 5.56MM might provide similar carachteristics to the 5.7X28MM developed for this new system. I would not be the least bit surprised if that is essentially just what it is.

Pretty close, though there are some questions as to whether to lean toward the light/fast 45-55 grain .224 bullets of the originam M16 M193 ball ammunition, or to switch to the 62-grain M855/SS109 style bullet [or heavier] for better penetration. Considerations of barrel twist rate arise, as they have with the 5,7mm MMJ, the .30 carbine cartridge necked to take a .224 bullet.

The .223 Timbs is the result of a co-development between Quality Cartridge and Joseph Timbs. It is the American answer to the proprietary .224 BOZ, bringing the CZ-52 into the new millenium. The .223 Timbs is a special loading of the 7.62x25 round for use only in the CZ-52 pistol. It consists of a sabot like the Remington "Accelerator" pushing a 50gr bullet over 2000fps. Concept was for devastating multi-purpose round, useable for small game, varmits, and defense. Accuracy has proven to be on-par with traditional rounds fired from the same pistol, and terminal ballistics are quite impressive with initial tests showing devastating expansion from the varmit-type bullets.

My old C96 broomhandle serves me well; The CZ 52 and Russian TT-33 Tokarev do as well and can handle MUCH higher pressure loads. And that 71-round drum of Shapagin's PPSh-41 submachinegun offers some interesting possibilitries, too:

Sabot ("Accelerator"*-Type) Loads

50gr SXSP (Hornady) $35.97

22 posted on 03/28/2003 12:00:04 PM PST by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Uncle Jaque
In the 1950's Czeckoslovakia modified the rolling-lock breech system of the German MP-40 (also used, we are told, in the P-5) to a semi-auto Military pistol; the CZ-52 chambered for the .30 TOK, also known as the 7.62 X 25MM.

Well, no. The MP40 is straight blowback. The Stecke-lock roller locking of the CZ52 is more akin to that found on the German MG42 and developmental Stg-45 assault rifle designs, said to be German developments of prototypes taken during the invasions of Poland and Czechoslovokia.

The German Walther P5 pistol is a development of the wartime P.38 with a lifting wedge type locking system- though if you meant the H&K MP-5 submachinegun, yes, it does indeed have a roller-locked mechanism.

I recently bought a CZ-52, and it is a well made, interesting pistol. The 7.62X25 is a peppy little round indeed, and apparently can be reloaded with a 55 grain saboted .223" (5.56MM) bullet and stepped up to around (as I recall) around 2,300FPS - not bad for a sidearm!

The 7,62x25 is indeed *peppy*, and offers a very reliably fed cartridge due to its bottlenecked configuration, and very suitable with reloading with bullets of .308 to .311 in diameter, both lead and jacketed...and the 109-grain tracer bullet of the .30 carbine works nicely, too.

One might speculate that simply necking the .30 TOKAREV to 5.56MM might provide similar carachteristics to the 5.7X28MM developed for this new system. I would not be the least bit surprised if that is essentially just what it is.

Pretty close, though there are some questions as to whether to lean toward the light/fast 45-55 grain .224 bullets of the original M16 M193 ball ammunition, or to switch to the 62-grain M855/SS109 style bullet [or heavier] for better penetration. Considerations of barrel twist rate arise, as they have with the 5,7mm MMJ, the .30 carbine cartridge necked to take a .224 bullet. But the Russians have certainly done some work with the 7,62x25mm necked down to 5,45mm, using bullets from everything from the PSM to that of the AK74 Kalishnikov assault rifle.

The .223 Timbs is the result of a co-development between Quality Cartridge and Joseph Timbs. It is the American answer to the proprietary .224 BOZ, bringing the CZ-52 into the new millenium. The .223 Timbs is a special loading of the 7.62x25 round for use only in the CZ-52 pistol. It consists of a sabot like the Remington "Accelerator" pushing a 50gr bullet over 2000fps. Concept was for devastating multi-purpose round, useable for small game, varmits, and defense. Accuracy has proven to be on-par with traditional rounds fired from the same pistol, and terminal ballistics are quite impressive with initial tests showing devastating expansion from the varmit-type bullets.

My old C96 broomhandle serves me well; The CZ 52 and Russian TT-33 Tokarev do as well and can handle MUCH higher pressure loads. And that 71-round drum of Shapagin's PPSh-41 submachinegun offers some interesting possibilitries, too:

Sabot ("Accelerator"*-Type) Loads

50gr SXSP (Hornady) $35.97

23 posted on 03/28/2003 12:09:46 PM PST by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy
Thanks for the correction on the inspirations and decendants of the roller system; I had picked that up on gunboards.com or parallax forums and wasn't quite sure of the numbers.

Wasn't the German MG-42 the one that was in prototype as the War ended? And yet you mention that the Germans got the idea from the Czechs in the first place? That's interesting!

Yes; I did mean the MP-5 - like the one that the INS Goon had shoved up Illian Gonzaleze's nose on behalf of Janet Reno.

Now the C-96 is an interesting piece; A freind has a Broom and a Bolo he might be willing to part with; both in rough shape but all there as near as I can tell. Both come with holster-stocks in much better shape than the guns themselves. Tempted, but alas; unemployed.

There was a guy on Gunboards who claimed that he has blown up 2 CZ-52's with loads that both a TOK and a Broom have held; he contends that the lockup is fine, but the barrel and chamber walls are too thin, and they will blow out the extractor and split the breech and slide out on the right side in front of the ejection port. That's a little scary; here I thought that the CZ was the strongest of the 3, but this chap is not convinced.

I just got a lot of Sellier & Bellot .30TOK from Cheaper than Dirt, and one of the empties I picked up had the primer blown out and extrusion bumps on the head where the brass had tried to crawl out through the extractor and ejector cuts in the bolt face. That did NOT make me happy! The pistol held, fortunately, and we have set that box lot aside!

I never had much use for anything more modern than a '98 Mauser or 1911-A1 - then along came Klinton and Brady, and of course we HAD to lay in some "Evil" semi-autos!
We still have a lot to learn about them, but with the help of an FN-49 and SKS, our education continues!

.30 Carbine TRACERS, you say!!??? Whoooo-iE!; you've got my attention! Where might a laddie come by some of those, pray tell? (Tracers / incendieries are Verbotten at our Range, but I'm sure we might yet find a safe venue to experiment in).

A couple of Korean War Veterans I know have told us about those "Pay-PayShays"; at close range they could saw a man in half; the rate of fire was awesome. Out much beyond 300 meters, though, a guy would feel a couple of taps on his overcoat, then shake a few .30 slugs out of his underwear when he eventually got to change it.

The Bulgarians tried to load up some .30TOK for their hand-me-down PPSH SMG apparantly, trying to match the ballistics of the Rooskies' AK's; I don't know how they worked in the SMG but some of them got over here (headstamped "53" as I recall) and have blown up a couple of pistols. When the ejected casing comes out as shrapnel, it's a clue!

I've been pretty much exclusively lurking on FR since this War started in earnest, but when this is squared away I hope you'll check in with and join us in:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi
or
http://pub109.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums
...although I would not be surprised if you're one of the "Regulars" in there already!

I go by the same "handle" in both forums, by the way.

Definitely looking forward to trying some of those .223 sabots in the CZ-52!
24 posted on 03/28/2003 2:12:51 PM PST by Uncle Jaque ("You boys think that War is all glory; I am here to tell you; War is all HELL!" WTS)
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To: sonofatpatcher2
I've never had the pleasure of firing a "Tommy", but surely would love to! When I was in the NHSP ('71-76) they had a bunch of 'em in the SWAT van, but the boogers would never let me near 'em despite all my begging and pleading, darn it!

Veterans who used one in Service tell us that they weigh more than the M-1 Garand and get somewhat hefty to lug around after a while - especially with a loaded drum magazine.

But when it comes to pure, raw, unadulterated, machochismo CLASS; Gosh; ya just can't beat a Tommygun, can ye?
25 posted on 03/28/2003 2:23:31 PM PST by Uncle Jaque ("You boys think that War is all glory; I am here to tell you; War is all HELL!" WTS)
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To: Uncle Jaque
Re: But when it comes to pure, raw, unadulterated, machochismo CLASS; Gosh; ya just can't beat a Tommygun, can ye?

Yep, you are correct, sir! A Thompson in the hands of man or woman who knows how to shoot it, can pretty much make a wasteland 150 to 200 yards in diameter.

Its heavy and it ain't high-tec, but it can still kick hinney with the best of them as a close combat weapon! The old .45 round still packs a punch as a man killer.

26 posted on 03/28/2003 2:33:02 PM PST by sonofatpatcher2 (Love & a .45-- What more could you want, campers? };^)
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To: sonofatpatcher2
We are on the same page when it comes to the venerable old .45, too!

The 9X19MM was a dandy murdering round when used by Nazis on compliant Jews at point blank range to the back of the head, but in a fair gunfight even the Wermacht, we are told by WW-II Veterans, would gleefully pitch their P-08 Luger or P-38 over the wall and replace it with a captured .45 if they could get their hands on one.

"Old Slabsides" served us well for over 85 years, and I was saddened to see our Military personell reduced to packing the 9MM; apparently our politically sensitive limp-wristed and gender-inclusive Soldiers and Soldierettes in the "Army of One" were considered too delicate to be subjected to the terribly abusive recoil and exhausting weight of the big, mean, insensitive old Colt .45.

As far as I'm concerned, if any U.S. Soldier or Soldierette is too "sensitive" to be able to handle a .45 competently, then they need to be re-assigned to the Peace Corps where they can be protected from harm by REAL AMERICAN SOLDIERS / MARINES!

Coasties, Swabbies, Wing Nuts and Postal Inspectors would be just fine, perhaps, with 9MMs or .38 revolvers.

Given the choice of sidearms to pack into hostile territory, I'll still take Old Slabsides the Pun'kin - slinger any ol day!
27 posted on 03/28/2003 7:37:32 PM PST by Uncle Jaque ("You boys think that War is all glory; I am here to tell you; War is all HELL!" WTS)
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