Military Mirrors Working-Class America

The New York Times ^ | 03/29/2003 (for editions of 03/30/2003) | David M. Halbfinger and Steven M. Holmes

[GeneD]

Sorry for the length, but given the high-mucky-muck status of many opposing the war, I thought this worth posting.

[SuziQ]

This is exactly the academic and media elites don't like the military. Too 'low-class', you understand! They sure want them to protect their behinds when they're in trouble, though.

Rudyard Kipling wrote a great poem about this phenomena. Someone posted it during the height of the Aghanistan action because it was written about British soldiers during one of their wars in the Middle East back in the late 1800s.

[ppaul]

Our Troops. Our Heroes.

:

[ricpic]

Why doesn't the staff of The New York Times enlist to redress the imbalance?

[No Left Turn]

But just one was from a well-to-do family, and with the exception of a Naval Academy alumnus, just one had graduated from an elite college or university.

A few points. Why are the Naval Academy alumnus not considered graduates from an elite college or university? If you combine the two, a little more than 7% of those KIA came from elite universities. I'd wager that's a lot higher representation than Americans from elite univerisities in the general population, even higher than Americans of typical college age.

Also, coming from an elite university doesn't mean you're rich. Coming from a non-elite university doesn't mean you're not rich. And what constitues a well-to-do family? One that this reporter knows personally? I'd like to know how many in the military come from families in the top ten percent of the income bracket? I'd bet it's quite a few, especially if you look at the officers corps.

[ChiMark]

This is exactly the type of condescending piece you'd get from the NYT. This attitude comes from what I callthe 0.5%.
Some how they think the world needs them.
Could someone please dispel the perpetuation of the "myth" that we put more blacks into combat lines in 1965.

[mountainfolk]

Thanks for the post. The concern expressed in the article over the decline of veterans in congress seems premature. A large number of enlisted personnel joined for the specific reason of getting the means to attend college after their tour of duty. These individuals will as likely run for political office as any other college educated person. If, as the article posits, the military are inclined towards conservatism, the Republican party will benefit when they take their military experience to congress. No more democrat dismantaling and defunding of the armed forces. The United States can again count on being fully prepared for whatever needs to be done to protect American citizens.

[elbucko]

Could someone please dispel the perpetuation of the "myth" that we put more blacks into combat lines in 1965.

A good source of Vietnam demographic stats, well annotated is:

http://members.aol.com/WarLibrary/vwc20.htm

(copy & paste.

[Restorer]

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

[elbucko]

This is exactly the academic and media elites don't like the military. Too 'low-class', you understand!

Not only that, but being in the presence of a veteran, causes these people to "hold their manhood cheap,...." (Shakespeare)

[elbucko]

An excerpt from this site: http://members.aol.com/WarLibrary/vwc20.htm

Indeed, recent studies tend to refute what had been the perceived wisdom of social scientists and other commentators that our V'nam dead came overwhelmingly from the poor communities. An MIT study released in 10-1992 found that our V'nam casualties were only marginally greater from the economically lowest 50% of our communities (31 V'nam deaths per 100000 of population) when compared with the highest 50% (26 deaths per 100000 of population). The class aspects of V'nam service had to do more with the obvious unfairness of sending very young non-college candidates to serve and die while the college bound stayed home. It became particularly reprehensible when the stay-at-homes sometimes became the most visible protesters against the war often vilifying those who were serving and dying.

[joesnuffy]

I was an NCO in Vietnam...age 19yrs. ...as for the "free" education
Watching this generation in this war.. they seem to be earning their "free education" the hard way imo

Quite a few having given up their lives will never use that "free education"...many more will give up limbs ..some will never see again.. and others will never rise from a wheelchair or a bed..

Some will never know the joy of being a husband and father..these are the things they will give up for us...

Some will go on to endure a lifetime of hassle and crap from the VA system and a nation of whinners back stabbing & ungratefull anti-war co workers, bosses and arrogant teachers...they will have given all they have and then some before this is done and their lives are over imo

And the strangest thing of all is that if you asked them to do it all over again....they not only would ..but they would do so proudly...

But if just some of us stand up for them...then some of them will also know the gratitude of their nation and that just may counter what the rest are trying to sell them..

God Bless each and every one...of our troops in battle...and thanks to FOX news

[HoustonCurmudgeon]

I live in a town of 65,000 people just SW of Houston. We have one of the highest income levels in the state and the highest level of advanced degrees in any of the 254 counties in Texas. The people serving in the armed forces that I know from here include:

A Marine Capt. His mom is on city council and his dad retired as President of BMC Software with MANY millions of dollars.

An enlisted Marine who’s father is an OB-Gyn who just spent a fortune restoring the oldest Mansion in the area.

The son of a second OB-Gyn, leaving today, who’s branch and rank I do not know.

A second city council member, worth a couple of million, who’s son graduated last spring from Vanderbilt, and was just Commissioned an Ensign in the Navy. His room mate was Ensign Andy Anderson son of the Attorney General of the United States.

An attorney who is an Army Reserve JAG Major who also did 9 months in the Balkins.

The Marine Capt. Son of the most liberal newspaper writer in the area and her attorney husband who is a former county Democratic Chairman. (I think he votes Republican)

These people have vast resources and contacts, but their children still serve.

God Bless them all, and the Armed Forces of the United States of America.

[xkaydet65]

"For it's Tommy this and Tommy that
and chuck 'im out the brute.
But it's saviour of 'is country
when the guns begin to shoot.
So it's Tommy this and Tommy that
and anything you please.
But Tommy aint no bloomin fool.
You bet that Tommy sees."

[SuziQ]

"Tommy" That's it! Thanks very much. Just goes to show that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[SuziQ]

Here's the other one I was thinking about. We have remarked on the brutality of these people; how they're not following the 'conventions' of war. This poem shows that this attitude has been prevalent in the Middle East for quite some time.

Afghanistan's Plains
by Rudyard Kipling

The following verse penned around a century ago after the English suffered a learning experience in the tortuous valleys of the Kindu Kush.

When you're wounded and left On Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out, To cut up your remains,
Just roll on your rifle, And blow out your brains,
And go to your Gawd Like a soldier…….

[Sam Lowry]

An interesting article despite the typical NYT condescension. The comparison with the Brits is interesting. I think Eton's class of 99 or 00 sent something like 19 grads to Sandhurst (with other elite 'public' schools sending good numbers as well). No top US prep school (Groton, Andover, Choate, etc.) sends anymore than 2 or 3 grads (if even) to any of the service academies in good years. There is something positive to be said about having the burden spread among the leaders of society. The US upper and upper mid classes have opted out of the military. It really is something cultural; they are more liberal than most and more self centered.

Another interesting thing is the rise of the south in the military. While southerners have always been overrepresented (they always love a good fight and are proud to serve) in the military, I get a sense over the past 20 years or so they are way overrepresented in the combat arms (something the article didn't quite touch on). As for the Latino presence in the combat arms, it too is a cultural thing. Its more macho to be an infantrymsn than a quartermaster.

[American Soldier]

I think it is a better thing if the enlisted ranks are disproportionately working class because they will appreciate things more and be willing to work harder and get their hands dirty.

I recall one Marine recruit from West Virginia who was in my friend's boot camp platoon while he was enlisted who started crying one night at chow during the first week. This caught the attention of the DIs who thought he was going to crack or try and quit. Once the young man recovered his composure he explained that he felt bad to "Have things so good" while his family still had things so rough at home.

Now that is a young man who will serve enthusiastically and value the opportunities the Corps gives him.

The crap about officers being from second rate schools is just ridiculous and fails to paint an accurate picture. It is much harder to get into any of the five service academies than the liberal crapholes from which the ranks of the N.Y. Times are filled. Further, getting an active duty ROTC scholarship can be pretty tough depending on where you apply and for which branch. Most of the kids who do ROTC knew they wanted more than a wuss civilian job coming out of college, so they attended whereever they happened to get a scholarship. This is because, unlike applying to McKinsey or Deloitte & Touche, the military is going to judge them based on grades and performance in leadership exercises, not the "prestige" of their school.

Thus, you meet many former military officers who score over 700 on the GRE for grad school (indicating they could have gotten into a top 10 undergrad) but went to Western Butthole State University for undergrad and don't regret it. This is because their school didn't matter -- Unlike the liberal chumps at Berkeley they already had direction and already had a real job plan laid out for themselves. If you already know you're going to be an Air Force pilot, why would you care about spending an extra $20,000 a year to go to a private school? Better to keep your finances in order.

Anybody who doubts what I'm saying should visit a few websites like www.whartonvets.com. It's a group of former military personnel at the nation's top business school. Listed on the site are alumni who've gone on to top firms on Wall Street and top consulting firms. Many are ROTC grads and not from particularly "elite" undergraduate institutions.

There is a reason that former junior military officers are overrepresented in so many Fortune 500 firms-because they have real skills, unlike sociology majors from Harvard. Mr. Welch (of General Electric) wrote a very good section on this in his book. Statistically, military officers will often make more money than the average Ivy League school graduate, since most of those people end up majoring in subjects with no practical application and get only marginal jobs after graduation (business majors excluded). The Merchant Marine Academy in particular is recognized as one of the top schools in America for sending people on to eventual senior leadership positions in Fortune 500 companies. This has been quantitatively verified.

I've had a few country club idiots ask me, upon hearing that I owed at least 4 years military service, "Oh, did they at least pay for your college?" And it pisses me off. My family was not poor. I am not some freaking mercenary who joined because I needed the money. I didn't. My family offered to pay all of my expenses. I was not an economic conscript.

These chumps need to look at the Chinese military. Now there is a socioeconomic nightmare.

[NYCVirago]

Those who warn of a warrior class cite a study by the Triangle Institute for Security Studies in North Carolina showing that between 1976 and 1996 the percentage of military officers who saw themselves as nonpartisan or politically independent fell from more than 50 percent to less than 20 percent. The main beneficiary of this shift, occurring in a period when the general public has increasingly eschewed party affiliation, has been the Republican Party.

Geez, is the New York Times worried about the "Ivy League class" of children getting into elite schools because their parents went there? How about the "lawyer class" or "actor class" of kids following in their parents' footsteps? Of course not, but this so called "warrior class" is now deemed a bad thing.

And the real gist of this article is this: the Times is concerned that too many of the military are Republican. Well, considering the Democratic Party picked a president who said he "loathed the military," and the party has thumbed its nose at the military since Vietnam, what did they expect?

[Pukka Puck]

Leave it to the New York Times to try to start a class and race war in the midst of a real war. What scum they are!