Pope Warns That War Could Bring 'Religious Catastrophe'

Washington Post ^ | March 30, 2003 | Reuters

[DED]

VATICAN CITY, March 29 -- Pope John Paul II said today he hoped that the human tragedy of the war in Iraq would not set Christians and Muslims against each other and spark "a religious catastrophe."

"War must never be allowed to divide world religions," he told visiting Roman Catholic bishops from Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country. The pope said good inter-religious relations were important "at this moment of heightened tension in the entire world community."

The pope is opposed to the war in Iraq and led a Vatican diplomatic campaign to avert it. The Iraq conflict has put the Vatican at odds with the Bush administration because the pope has refused to bless the conflict as a "just war."

In the months before the Iraq war began, John Paul lobbied in favor of a negotiated solution. He has said there is no legal or moral justification for the military action, and has worried about how it could affect relations between Christians and Muslims.

[DED]

The Principals of a Just War were written by Catholics many years back and were restated in 1993 by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Is the Pope ignoring the principals established by the Cardinals? Are we fighting a just war? I think intelligent people can debate a few of these points, but (as Tommy Franks seems fond of saying), there is no doubt about the final outcome.

Regarding his comments about allowing war to divide world religions - are we in danger of doing that, or has the Islamic world already done it?

The principals are restated below:

Just Cause: force may be used only to correct a grave, public evil, i.e., aggression or massive violation of the basic rights of whole populations.

Comparative Justice: while there may be rights and wrongs on all sides of a conflict, to override the presumption against the use of force the injustice suffered by one party must significantly outweigh that suffered by the other.

Legitimate Authority: only duly constituted public authorities may use deadly force or wage war.

Right Intention: force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose.

Probability of Success: arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success.

Proportionality: the overall destruction expected from the use of force must be outweighed by the good to be achieved.

Second, the just-war tradition seeks also to curb the violence of war through restraint on armed combat between the contending parties by imposing the following moral standards (jus in bello) for the conduct of armed conflict.

Last Resort: force may be used only after all peaceful alternatives have been seriously tried and exhausted.

Noncombatant Immunity: civilians may not be the object of direct attack, and military personnel must take due care to avoid and minimize indirect harm to civilians.

Proportionality: in the conduct of hostilities, efforts must be made to attain military objectives with no more force than is militarily necessary and to avoid disproportionate collateral damage to civilian life and property.

[ex-snook]

Did you search before you posted this?

[Russell Scott]

Just get in your Popemobile and go wave. Let us do the real Christian work. Liberating the people of Iraq from a brutal, demonic regime.

[freedom9]

Cheek turning time is over

Amos 6
3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
4 That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall; . . .

[Kevin Curry]

. . . brutal, demonic regime.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that."

Apparently the Vatican believes Saddam is just misunderstood.

[tbpiper]

Apparently the Vatican believes Saddam is just misunderstood.

So much for papal infallibility.

[John Valentine]

"War must never be allowed to divide world religions," he told visiting Roman Catholic bishops from Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country. The pope said good inter-religious relations were important "at this moment of heightened tension in the entire world community."

The man may be Pope, but he is woefully ignorant and mal-informed on the nature of Islam, and the central role of 'jihad' in that religion.

Islam is a religion of war, not a religion of peace as we often heard it inaccurately described. 'Islam' means submission, not peace, and it is a form of submission that demand relinquishment of the critical mental faculty that makes us human. Islam's central reason for being is to extend it's hegemony to the entire planet, preminiently through thuse of war.

It seems to me that in his dotage,.this Pope is hoping that if he places his head deeply enough in the sand, he won't notice the pain that is surely heading the way of al of Christendom, to say nothing of Buddhist and secular lands.

If we don't act, eventually we or our children will be Muslims or dhimmis or dead.

[Kevin Curry]

Jeremiah 6:13-14 "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace."

I am convinced the Pope is, at his core, a profoundly decent if misguided (on this issue) man.

Some of the snakes that surround and advise him at the Vatican are another story entirely.

[CyberAnt]

I think it's so great for the Pope to bring this up and broadcast it all over the world. [sarcasm]

[wastoute]

What's more, he seems to be suggesting that his Boss (that would be Jesus) left him instructions to "get along with the worlds other religions. The last time I looked He said, "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE light, NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." That would seem to pretty explicitly exclude "coooperating with other religions" to me. Especially one that believes that lying to a non believer is an acceptable practive, killing non-believers is praised, and I won't even start on the pedophilia, polygamy deal.

[Pistias]

force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose

What other purpose could there be?

[Jhoffa_]

Apparently the Vatican believes Saddam is just misunderstood.

The Vatican (and others) seem to have a deliberate blind spot here.

If Saddam would have disarmed, as he promised and stuck to the deal he made himself then this would all be history.

Right now Clinton would be polishing his Nobel Peace Prize and Saddam would be sanction free and busily (if covertly) rebuilding his arsenal.

There's nothing pre-emptive about this war and we are not the agressors. This isn't Gulf War 2, this is Gulf War 1, part 3.

I thought that would be obvious to everyone. Guess I was mistaken.

[ex-snook]

It would help if someone could show the Pope and the world's major nations what threat Saddam is since losing the war some dozen years ago. He has been bombed some 40,000 times without a plane being lost, been blockaded, inspected, and no-fly zoned. Recitations of his threat to the United States need something more current that a dozen years ago.

The Pope is saying that we are in the process of converting Bush's "Islam is a religion of peace" into a perpetual holy war for perpetual peace.

If Bush is right that Saddam is our threat then we will eliminate all the airport and other security precautions and get back to fixing the economy. If the Pope is right, we will keep them. We won't have long to wait to find out.

[Arpege92]

With all due respect to the Pope, why isn't he concerned about the muslim terrorists who are bombing the Jews in Israel. It's not the Christians or the Jews who are killing people in the name of Allah!

[laz17]

The Pope no longer makes any pretense of spreading the Gospel, which is his responsibility. Instead, he would rather appease and make nice with all the satanic forces that are waging war against the Gospel. He wrings his hands and worries about a clash between religions, all the while failing to realize that this clash is ALREADY taking place and that islam has declared jihad against all "infidels". Islam has ALREADY declared war, and the Pope wants us not to fight back. If we were to follow his lead, we would all be converted to islam by the sword, or killed for refusing to submit.

Worthless is the shepherd who leads his sheep to the slaughter! The only true shepherd is Christ. His earthly respresentative has abdicated his position. He no longer leads the true Church. Only Christ does.

[logic101.net]

Nice response!

Although this was hit on in the main post, I want to add to it. It is the radical muslums that have been trying to drive a wedge between the world's religions, and has been for generations. How long after the creation of Israel did it take for radical muslums to attempt genocide? Hours!

And also does the pope feel that the lives of the Iraqi people are of no value? Does he feel that they should not be allowed to state their views? Does he feel that they should live forever in fear of a brutal, genocidal regeme? Does he have no compassion? Or is he just anti-Bush? Or senile?


MARK A SITY
http://www.logic101.net/

[Cicero]

This was already posted. Consider the source. The Washington Post would like nothing better than to start a war between conservative Protestants and Catholics.

The Pope HAS NOT said that this is an unjust war, either now or earlier. He is trying to stave off a jihad against the millions of Christian--both Protestant and Catholic--who have the ill fortune to live in muslim-dominated countries. What on earth is wrong with that?

Please. This is the same kind of liberal spinning that the the press indulged in when Bush visited Bob Jones University, and McCain tried to get the Catholics angry with Protestants. Don't let yourselves be manipulated so easily.

[Rome2000]

The Pope is senile and the Catholic Church should be ashamed.

The Jihadists have declared holy war on western civilization, but the church never met a nation of Jew killers it didn't make excuses for.

[HapaxLegamenon]

The thing to understand about this pope is that Vatican II (1962-65) is the starting point for everything. Thus everything must be rehashed accroding to the liberal ideals of modern man. Thus, his preocupation with ecumenism. Hostlities between religions must be avoided at all cost. Thus the Catholic Church continues to make concessions in every corner while receiving nothing back. This war, inasmuch as it shows the cruelty and bloodiness at least of some forms of Islam (Cut your enemies heads off, sucide bombing for alah, etc), threatens to destroy the shadows and Phantam sucesses that he thinks ecumenism has wrought.

[Jhoffa_]

I can't believe this is malicious on behalf of any of them.

But I agree with the "ashamed" part.

[DED]

Bush has never ONCE said Saddam is THE threat; quite the opposite, he has repeatedly stated that the war on terrorism will be a long, ongoing process.
His one point that I disagree with is that this war will eventually be won. The war on terrorism will NEVER be over, as it only takes one disgruntled or misguided fool to launch a terrorist attack, even a very large one.

[RobbyS]

The pope is thinking that one does not drop a match into a tinder box. Let us hope his assessment of the facts is wrong.

[Theresa]

"The Pope HAS NOT said that this is an unjust war, either now or earlier."

Sure he did. I heard it on FOX that the pope said it was not a just war. Why do you say that's not true?

[tessalu]

The Pope does not even control his own church, which has been filled with pedophile priests. Is there any reason to believe that he is any more credible than they? What makes the Pope think he is qualified to tell anyone what they should do? He needs to tend to his business at hand.

[RobbyS]

Funny, I thought that Israel, not the United States, was the Jewish state.

[Tigercap]

The pope is one man, like you or I.

[RobbyS]

What does the issue of pedophile priests have to do with Iraq? By the way, a large percentage of Iraq Christians live in Bagdad.

[DED]

Ecumenism is like the joke I heard several years ago. A little boy comments that all religions are just different ways of voting for God. This concept is wrong - all religions are mutually exclusive, making it very important to look into it enough to be sure you're making the right choice!

Christianity can be supported historically. Kids are taught things in history class for which there is less historical evidence than there is for the existence of Jesus Christ. And there is overwhelming historical evidence that the Bible is incredibly accurate.

Can Islam make the same claim?

[ex-snook]

"Bush has never ONCE said Saddam is THE threat; quite the opposite, he has repeatedly stated that the war on terrorism will be a long, ongoing process. "

Then if Saddam is not the threat, why did Bush decide to bomb Iraq first? Nah, the Pope is right on this. This is about regime change, oil, or Israel and not terrorist threat.

[HapaxLegamenon]

Can Islam make the same claim?

NO!

[Jhoffa_]

Then if Saddam is not the threat, why did Bush decide to bomb Iraq first?

I honestly don't think it matters what it's about. Saddam has it coming and we have the moral high ground.

All he had to do was keep the deal he made and disarm.. If he had done so, US troops in Iraq would be nothing more than a faded memory.

[laz17]

The pope is one man, like you or I

I used to believe he was much more than just a man. I truly believed he was moved by the Holy Spirit. But my opinion of him has done a 180 over the last two months. Is he even aware of what is going on in the world? Does he know of all the Christians who have been martyred all over the world by the sword of islam, as in Rwanda and Indonesia? How can he, in good conscience, ask us to appease the Beast that is slaughtering the flock? Does he actually believe the Beast will stop its slaughter? Does he actually think that if we make nice, muslims will stop killing Christians and Jews? How naive can he possibly be? How can he pretend to be trying to prevent a war between religions when islam has ALREADY declared war and is actively waging it?

The Pope no longer champions the Gospel. He champions political correctness, and political correctness is nothing but an invention of Satan to demoralize humanity and fool it into submitting without trying to defend itself. Satan is waging war against Christians and Jews via socialism and islam, and political correctness is his way of disarming the victims.

[Cicero]

You heard the Pope say it, or you heard Fox say he said it?

There seems to be a lot of confusion and liberal spinning about what the Pope has said and not said.

I have not seen any statement by the Pope that the war is wrong. I have seen several statements praying for peace, urging negotiations if possible, and this one urging that Muslims and Christians should not start killing each other--which is just a polite way of trying to restrain the Muslims from killing Christians. None of this is a direct criticism of President Bush, the United States, or the current war.

[ex-snook]

"I honestly don't think it matters what it's about. Saddam has it coming and we have the moral high ground. "

Nah we don't. Bush says he is carrying out UN resolutions and the UN says he is not. Bush is doing it for his reasons and that is regime change, oil, or Israel. Reasons matter for moral high ground.

[DED]

He's taking on Saddam first because this is the enemy we can SEE, and he was in a position to give some really nasty WMD's to the ones we CAN'T see.
Besides, the guy has reportedly snuffed out a million people over the last 20 years; isn't that reason enough?
Yes, I DO know there are other world leaders that have been equally horrendous, but we can't go after them all - we had enough trouble getting going with THIS one.

[laz17]

This concept is wrong

It most certainly is. It is not enough to believe in God. It is imperative to KNOW God. To know who He is, to know what He says is right, to know what He says is wrong. This is why He revealed Himself through the Bible and in Christ.

Many people believe in God, but they don't believe in THE God. Just as God created man in his image, many people create God in their own image. They invent a God that agrees with them, rather than following the commandments of the one true God. They worship a God who doesn't exist, or demons masquerading as God. This is why Christ said that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will inherit the Kingdom. It is not enough to believe in a divine being. One must recognize the identity of who that specific divine being actually is. And the only way to recognize that is to follow His commandments, not the commandments of men or false gods.

[ex-snook]

"Besides, the guy has reportedly snuffed out a million people over the last 20 years; isn't that reason enough? "

Nah, Russia and China have snuffed out even more and we contained them. We have contained Iraq for the past dozen years. This is about oil, regime change or Israel, not some body count.

[DED]

The pope has stated repeatedly that the war is wrong.

Quotes from the Washington Post:

"In the months before the Iraq war began, John Paul lobbied in favor of a negotiated solution. He has said THERE IS NO LEGAL OR MORAL JUSTIFICATION for the military action, and has worried about how it could affect relations between Christians and Muslims."

"The pope is opposed to the war in Iraq and led a Vatican diplomatic campaign to avert it. The Iraq conflict has put the Vatican at odds with the Bush administration because the POPE HAS REFUSED TO BLESS THE CONFLICT AS A "JUST WAR"."

[Jhoffa_]

Yeah, but look at who you are talking about. The UN has sat on it's hands for years and passed resolutions.. Even their latest round of inspections wouldn't have gotten off the ground without our troops in place. Saddam would have flipped them bird just like a thousand times before.

In my opinion, the fact remains that the ball has been solidly in Saddam's court for more than a decade. All he had to do was abide by the deal he made to stop the first gulf war. He cried "uncle" there, not us. He made a deal and then he broke it.

If he would have kept his deal, this would be ancient history. The onus was on him to do as he said.. Not the reverse.

Let me ask you:

Suppose you commit a crime, are caught and cop a plea to get off with community service instead of jail.. THEN, you refuse to do the community service, as you promised.

Are the cops immoral for coming after you? Are they actually the "agressors" in this scenario? Or is it your own fault and something that any reasonable person would have anticipated?

[ex-snook]

You are most certainly an obtuse, ignorant fool, and no one should waste his time debating with you. Wallow in your blindness. Or go to DU.

Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts. But I can read the rules for this site.

[DED]

Thank you very much for an excellent post.
It's pretty tough these days to try to consistently recognize WWJD, don't you think?
"The fool has said in his heart there is no God."

[sinkspur]

I have not seen any statement by the Pope that the war is wrong. I have seen several statements praying for peace, urging negotiations if possible,

What kind of negotiations does the Pope have in mind? What does one "negotiate" with a thug like Hussein?

The Pope may not have said the war is unjust, but many close to him have, and he has not corrected them.

The Pope, and other Catholic churchmen, are talking too much. They should pray, and encourage others to pray, and say NOTHING ELSE!

[Jhoffa_]

The person you are addressing is a senior FReeper. Ex-Snook has been here for about half a decade.

You may not agree Snooks opinion, but he hardly a fool who belongs at the DU because of it.

[BamaFan69]

Some quotes for the Pope:

"Once you've decided, don't delay. The best is the enemy of the good... a good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week." (Gen. George S. Patton Jr.)

" Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." (Joe Louis said this)

"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. (Gen. George S. Patton Jr.)

And the greatest quote of them all....

No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.
-General George S. Patton

War is ugly, people die. That is a fact... If they would all accept Jesus into their hearts.. Problem solved...However, they choose Allah.

[sinkspur]

We have contained Iraq for the past dozen years. This is about oil, regime change or Israel, not some body count.

9/11 changed everything, snookems. The US can no longer sit back and wait to get hit by terrorists, or their sponsors.

We're not going to roll up the sidewalks like your boy Buchanan wants.

There are those who want to kill us, and we are NOT GOING TO LET THEM!!!

[DED]

I wish you could read something else, as you completely missed everything you didn't want to hear in my previous post. You betcha China and Russia have killed more people, but there's no reason to think we're next in thier book either. And because the consequences of attempting to halt the evil practices of China, Russia, or N. Korea would be too terrible to contemplate, does that mean we're required to ignore Saddam Hussein's evil empire - OUT OF FAIRNESS?
And since the previous post mentioned that you belong on DU, it bears mentioning - people on Free Republic can handle an opposing opinion like yours - at DU, you get banned for posting not just Democratic opinions, but for posting non-liberal Democratic opinions.

[ex-snook]

"The Pope, and other Catholic churchmen, are talking too much. They should pray, and encourage others to pray, and say NOTHING ELSE! "

Hey Sink and to think people are mad at Pope Pius for not speaking out! Goodnight all.