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What college catalogs don't reveal
TownHall.com ^ | Tuesday, April 1, 2003 | by Phyllis Schlafly

Posted on 04/01/2003 4:49:51 AM PST by JohnHuang2

The catalogs and magazines from colleges and universities are impressive: slick paper, full color, attractive layouts and lots to read. But several items of useful information are usually missing.

Getting a bachelor's degree now takes five or six years instead of the traditional four. That drives up the already exorbitant cost another 25 percent to 50 percent more than you may have budgeted. Yet your degree isn't worth one penny more.

Only 31 percent of students at state institutions and 65 percent at private institutions graduate in four years. The primary reason for this slowdown is the easy flow of taxpayer money for grants and loans that make the extended stay pleasant for students and profitable for the institutions.

Don't count on college counselors to guide you to the courses that will

enable you to graduate in four years. The counselors are working for the college, not the students, and they know which side their bread is buttered on.

In addition to the out-of-pocket costs of tuition and housing, be sure to count the cost of lost employment for a couple of years. A University of Texas administrator estimates that each additional year in school costs students $50,000 in additional college costs and lost income.

When Pennsylvania last year promised $6 million bonuses to colleges that graduate at least 40 percent of their in-state students within four years, not a single state institution qualified. Some colleges have tried various inducements to increase their four-year graduation rate, but none can match the attraction of having tuition paid by taxpayers.

According to the General Accounting Office, 64 percent of college students graduate with student-loan debt, and the average student-loan debt is $19,400. After they join the work force, their monthly payments take at least 8 percent of their income.

This burden is even higher because more than half of student borrowers take out the more expensive unsubsidized loans. Surveys show that students often underestimate the total cost of their loans, forgetting about the interest, which over time can almost double the amount of the loan.

The use of credit cards by mostly unemployed college students is another current phenomenon. The average credit-card debt of undergraduate students is $2,748, and of graduate students is $4,776. The average student is carrying three credit cards, and 32 percent have four or more.

Some colleges give the credit-card companies access to lists of students and then get a kickback of a percentage of charges on the cards. It should come as no surprise that bankruptcy filings have reached a record high, and the fastest growing group of filers are those younger than age 25.

College publications brag about their women's studies departments, but they fail to warn students that there are few job opportunities for those with a degree or a concentration in women's studies, except at the declining feminist organizations and their nonprofit bureaucracies.

The Independent Women's Forum surveyed 89 women's studies majors and discovered that all but 18 were earning less than $30,000 per year, and 8 reported no personal income at all. In interviews with prospective employers, many found it useful to conceal or de-emphasize their women's studies majors.

Maybe women's studies majors didn't really expect to get a good job because they have been taught to approach life as a whining victim who will never get equal treatment. Women's studies courses openly teach the ideology that American women are oppressed by a male-dominated society and that the road to liberation is abortion, divorce, the rejection of marriage and motherhood, and unmarried sex of all varieties.

The career feminists, however, have achieved some successes in their agenda to punish the men whom they disdain as the oppressor class. Feminists in the Clinton administration misused Title IX to force universities to abolish 171 college wrestling teams and hundreds of other men's teams in gymnastics, swimming, golf and even football.

Another fact of campus life that college publications fail to reveal is the large number of students who are not capable of college work and are enrolled in high school-level remedial courses, although that word doesn't appear in the catalog. An astounding 29 percent of current freshmen at four-year colleges are taking at least one remedial reading, writing or math class; at two-year colleges, the figure is 41 percent.

What IS in college catalogs can be even more deceptive. Courses may have traditional titles, such as English 101, but the content of the course is better described as oppression studies.

Courses listed in college catalogs may be taught only once in 10 years. Colleges brag about their famous tenured professors, but they usually duck the large-enrollment courses, which are often taught by recent hires or graduate students.

It's time for overpriced colleges to give students some truth in labeling so they can spend their college dollars wisely. It's time to show students the option of getting a bachelor's degree in just three years (as two of my sons and I did at top-rated universities).

Phyllis Schlafly is a lawyer and conservative political analys


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: college; highereducation; phyllisschlafly; university
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Tuesday, April 1, 2003

Quote of the Day by WellsFargo94

1 posted on 04/01/2003 4:49:52 AM PST by JohnHuang2
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To: JohnHuang2
Good article. We've just been through the college admissions process with our oldest daughter, and all of the points Schafley makes are good ones.

The better college guidebooks, and the US News survey, give you 4 and 6 year graduation rates. As my wife and I were '60s and early '70s undergraduates, we were amazed at how many schools had 4 year graduation rates under 75%. In our day, about the only reason people didn't finish in four years was the draft (for guys), pregnancy (for women) or finances (back before everyone could get cheap money).

We have noticed over the past decade the increasing number of kid who take double majors, and the colleges differ greatly on how difficult that is to do in four years, and it also differs depending on how closely related the two majors are. Obviously a BA Classics/BS Engineering would be a very tough double major, and a BA History/BA American Studies would be easier. A tough choice is when kids are serious about music and an academic major, e.g. BM Music Performance/BA Mathematics or even English or History. It's almost impossible to do that in four years.

The remedial classes number is stunning. In my day, there were only two remedials offered at most real colleges: what was called "bonehead English" for those who couldn't pass simple exam given at the start of freshman year and "bonehead math" for those who hadn't taken trigonometry and analytic geometry in high school (not uncommon 35 years ago).

2 posted on 04/01/2003 5:36:08 AM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Mesopotamiam Esse Delendam)
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To: JohnHuang2
Going over the resume and ...

Hmmm, Degree in Women Studies

Oh, so you're a lesbian?

3 posted on 04/01/2003 5:43:41 AM PST by glorgau
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To: JohnHuang2
We are now working with our son to determine where he will go to school. He has been offered several scholarships to top schools paying half or full tuition. He is also an NROTC sholarship winner and two of the schools he was accepted to will match the NROTC scholarship with room and board meaning a totally free ride (well, he will be in service after). He wants a career in medicine in research or clinical work and has been accepted at Carnegie Mellon, Univesity of Rochester, and Cornell among eight schools total. He is now deciding between U of R and Cornell. Cornell is liberal, but the Ivy League which is a major factor in its favor. Additionally, it has excellent scientific research. University of Rochester is superb, too. Not quite the name of Cornell, but a complete full ride with no debt. Freepers, any points pro or con you care to make will be appreciated! V's wife.
4 posted on 04/01/2003 5:47:09 AM PST by ventana
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To: JohnHuang2
Thanks for posting this. I have a sophmore in high school. I wasn't aware of any of this.

Colleges brag about their famous tenured professors, but they usually duck the large-enrollment courses, which are often taught by recent hires or graduate students

This was true even in my day. Cornell bragged that Carl Sagan taught astronomy there. I never saw the man in the 4 years that I was there (79-83). He was too busy filming "Cosmos" and book writting and with speaking engagements.

5 posted on 04/01/2003 5:49:57 AM PST by kidd
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To: ventana
Visit the schools physically when school is in session.

My brother went to Ga Tech after visiting Cornell (was his first choice)
6 posted on 04/01/2003 5:50:45 AM PST by Blueflag
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To: JohnHuang2
Go to a technical or junior college, it's cheaper and the education is just as good or better because it's hands-on experience taught by someone who understands the real world and not some loony-liberal professor sucking on a pipe blaming America for everything.
7 posted on 04/01/2003 5:54:00 AM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: JohnHuang2
Good article, and accurate. I took a BA and an MA, through GI Bill, federal loans, and working several jobs. Got an admin job at a different college where, believe me, I prefer to keep my politics largely to myself.

2 of my MA classmates now work as secretaries at Harvard. No joke...it helps to have a Master's to land an entry level job there.

As I recall, as an undergrad I had a "diversity requirement", which meant I had to take a clutch of courses that described the evils of white men. Did read some good books, but usually the experience left me annoyed and on the defensive.

In the grad program, scores of people were starting on careers in bulls--t, who through rigorous and thorough analysis all conclude that America is to blame for all things. Gets old fast.
8 posted on 04/01/2003 5:54:25 AM PST by Gefreiter
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To: kidd
Three books that I found helpful were the "Fiske guide to college"; "Choosing The Right College"; and "How to get into the Ivy League", which, whether the Ivy League is your goal or not still offers helpful information on the admissions process. One kid in my son's class, super student, #6, in class, is having a devil of a time not getting in in any of his choice schools. The reason: low SAT's, not enough extracurriculars, and presumably a poor essay. There is also a great book about alternative schools to the top Northeastern schools. Lots of fabulous schools in the Southeast, and middle states and they offer great educations. Rice, for instance, is top notch, and in Texas. Our son didn't want to go that far away, so we didn't explore that. His buddy just got into Claremont Mckenna, however. V's wife.
9 posted on 04/01/2003 6:00:46 AM PST by ventana
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To: ventana
University of Rochester is superb, too.

Cornell vs. U of R? No contest -- go Cornell. Rochester costs as much as Cornell, but isn't anywhere near the calibre of Cornell.

Just about any university will be extremely liberal. U of R is especially bad, though.

10 posted on 04/01/2003 6:01:39 AM PST by jude24 ("Facts? You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!" - Homer Simpson)
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To: glorgau
I knew a guy in high school who ended up majoring in womens studies. Go figure.
11 posted on 04/01/2003 6:02:42 AM PST by HitmanLV
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To: jude24
Yeah, he's leaning that way. He'll be a pretty lonely ROTC guy at either campus! V's wife.
12 posted on 04/01/2003 6:03:42 AM PST by ventana
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
Go to a technical or junior college

Well said. A lot of the beginning courses in a traditional university program are nothing but the same general education BS you took through high school anyway.

13 posted on 04/01/2003 6:04:01 AM PST by ServesURight (FReecerely Yours,)
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To: HitmanNY
I knew a guy in high school who ended up majoring in womens studies. Go figure.

So did I....

I'm not sure what possesses a guy to do that. It's not a good way to pick up women, that's for sure.

14 posted on 04/01/2003 6:05:10 AM PST by jude24 ("Facts? You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!" - Homer Simpson)
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To: ventana
Where in NY are you from?
15 posted on 04/01/2003 6:05:45 AM PST by jude24 ("Facts? You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!" - Homer Simpson)
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To: ventana
For my money, I'll take U of R and Strong Memorial Hospital for anything medical related. UR is VERY well known for its quality, and Strong is the region's premiere hospital, IMO.
16 posted on 04/01/2003 6:06:08 AM PST by MortMan
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To: Blueflag
Gooooo, Jackets, Sting'em!!

GT BME '82
GT MSME '85
17 posted on 04/01/2003 6:06:46 AM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: jude24
Right next to West Point on the Hudson.
18 posted on 04/01/2003 6:06:54 AM PST by ventana
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To: JohnHuang2; LurkedLongEnough; neehaow
bump
19 posted on 04/01/2003 6:07:34 AM PST by leadpencil1 (all generalizations are bad)
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To: MortMan; ventana
I'll take U of R and Strong Memorial Hospital for anything medical related. UR is VERY well known for its quality, and Strong is the region's premiere hospital, IMO.

That may be....

but for undergraduate work, UofR is not especially great. He'd do better to go to Cornell, and if he wants to go to med school later, then UofR might be a good choice.

20 posted on 04/01/2003 6:08:22 AM PST by jude24 ("Facts? You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!" - Homer Simpson)
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To: JohnHuang2
Colleges and univesities are only required to report crimes that occur on their immediate property to a Federal crime database and this information is incredibly difficult to obtain as a prospective student or their family. Off-campus crime statistics involving college students on non-campus property is nearly impossible to differentiate from non-student involved crime.

This type of information can be quite important for students and their families thinking of attending large and urban colleges and universities.

21 posted on 04/01/2003 6:09:06 AM PST by jriemer (We are a Republic not a Democracy)
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To: jude24; HitmanNY
Women's studies, or Studying Women? There's a tad of a difference, you know:-)
22 posted on 04/01/2003 6:09:23 AM PST by MortMan
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To: jude24
I think the thing about undergrad is you usually don't go to the med school associated with your campus. So, it would be unlikely he'd go to Strong/UR. OTOH, he would have a hospital right there at which he could volunteer. V's wife.
23 posted on 04/01/2003 6:10:09 AM PST by ventana
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To: ventana
Thanks. I will look into these.

Rice is tough to get into if you are not a Texas resident. I was accepted at Cornell, Duke, Brown, Washington and the U of Minnesota, but was rejected by Rice. I do agree its an excellent school.
24 posted on 04/01/2003 6:11:22 AM PST by kidd
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To: MortMan
lol....

nah, this guy is in "women's studies."

I think too many of the Women's Studies women are, shall we say, a little too interested in women....

25 posted on 04/01/2003 6:14:14 AM PST by jude24 ("Facts? You can use facts to prove anything that's even REMOTELY true!" - Homer Simpson)
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To: CatoRenasci
>>In our day, about the only reason people didn't finish in four years was the draft, pregnancy or finances

I was at Ga Tech a little after the time of your college carrer, late '70's/early 80's.

At Tech, 4 years was unusual, but it was because passing 200+ quarter hours of a difficult technical curriculum was just damned hard to do in 12 academic quarters. IIRC, most majors required around 203-206 quarter-hours, which is almost 17 hours per quarter on average. And many classes had 3-hour labs, which counted for 1 quarter hour and required substantial out-of-lab write-ups.

But your point is well taken, I don't think much of the reason for longer time-in-school to graduate today is due to academic rigor of the curricula.
26 posted on 04/01/2003 6:14:45 AM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: jude24; ventana
Well said, and outside my direct sphere of knowledge (I went to RIT). Good luck to your son V (&V's Wife), wherever he ends up.
27 posted on 04/01/2003 6:14:49 AM PST by MortMan
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To: ventana
Of the Universities you mention, I would totally endorse Carnegie Mellon.  I didn't go there but I know people who did.  I visited Pittsburgh frequently while they attended.  I don't know about their pre-med program but the engineering is top notch.  Perhaps he'd be interested in a Bio-Med Engineering program?  Almost all the NROTC guys I went to school with were engineers.  (Marquette Univ, BSEE, 1987)  I'll put a plug in for Marquette as well and note that they have a very good NROTC program.

The other benefit is that he'll be farther from home.  I left New Jersey to go to Milwaukee.  I almost went to school in New Jersey but going to school more than 1,000 miles away added to the level of maturity I attained

Cornell???  What are you thinking???!!!  :-)

28 posted on 04/01/2003 6:15:37 AM PST by Incorrigible
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To: CatoRenasci
I think the most important thing a new student can do to get out in 4 years is to quickly pick a major and know all of the rules that go along with it.

I finished in 4 years at Wisconsin with a dual Poli Sci/Int'l Relations degree, because I would sit down for several hours before registration, and map out all of the classes I could take that would count for both majors. I had my majors done by the end of the 1st semester of my senior year. The one time I saw a counselor was at the end of that semester, and I asked, "I'm done, right?" My final semester was then full of all of the classes I had wanted to take, but wasn't sure if I could spare the time.
29 posted on 04/01/2003 6:21:16 AM PST by July 4th
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To: glorgau
Going over the resume and ... Hmmm, Degree in Women Studies[.] Oh, so you're a lesbian?

Mrs. Schlafly is a Christian and a conservative.

30 posted on 04/01/2003 6:25:03 AM PST by newgeezer (A conservative who conserves -- a true capitalist!)
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To: JohnHuang2
The line about English 101 being oppression studies really hit home. My first day in 101 at the University of Maryland, my female professor walked in, introduced herself, welcomed us to her class, then proceeded to tell us that she had been artifically inseminated so that she and her lesbian lover could be parents. I'm not joking, it was that fast, all in the same sentence.
31 posted on 04/01/2003 6:25:39 AM PST by YourAdHere (Christy will win Survivor)
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To: All
A thread about college catalogs, and no one has mentioned this?

Black Guy Photoshopped In

You guys are falling down on the job...

32 posted on 04/01/2003 6:28:17 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: B Knotts; July 4th
Dude!  The Onion was late to the game on that one.

The photoshopped cover really happened at the University of Wisconsin.

UW-Madison doctors photo to stress diversity


Photo/UW-Madison news & public affairs
The original photo shows Badger football fans cheering during a football game at Camp Randall Stadium.

 


Photo/UW-Madison news & public affairs
In an effort to show what a diverse campus UW-Madison is, UW officials doctored a photo that appears on the cover of the Wisconsin 2001-'02 admissions application to include a black student in it.

 


Photo/UW-Madison news & public affairs
This photo of Diallo Shabazz was added to the cover of the admissions application. Shabazz was originally with ethnic minority students meeting each other at the PLAYFAIR icebreaker activity for new students during Wisconsin Welcome, a University of Wisconsin orientation activity. The photo was reversed to make it work within the context of the other photo.

 


33 posted on 04/01/2003 6:35:26 AM PST by Incorrigible
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To: July 4th
Your advice is good if a student really knows what they want to do when they start. Unfortunately, most students change majors, once or twice, but sometimes more. I suspect PoliSci/IR was relatively easy to double major, as there should be lots of overlap in major courses, i.e. courses that not only fill elective requirements for one or both, but dual listing of courses for the major. In our daughters case coming up, looking at BM Music Performance/BA History or English, there will be less overlap, but electives for one can sometimes be the required major courses for the other.

I didn't double major, but I have to say I was always careful to make sure I had my requirements fulfilled or waived early on. The most important thing a student can do is to get the current college catalog and read it carefully. Everyone concentrates on the viewbooks and fluff, but the meat is in the catalog.

34 posted on 04/01/2003 6:35:59 AM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Mesopotamiam Esse Delendam)
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To: All
Looking at colleges for my daughter. She's strong in math and science and has talked about Air Force Academy. She wants to be a pilot (fighter) but I'm not sure she will qualify physically (she's 5' nothing). If anyone has any alternate suggestions I would appreciate it.
35 posted on 04/01/2003 6:36:12 AM PST by nebulas (,)
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To: glorgau
Going over the resume and ...

Hmmm, Degree in Women Studies

Oh, so you're a lesbian?

This is an inaccurate stereotype. I once knew a Women's Studies major, and she estimated that as many as 15% of the students were heterosexual. :-)

36 posted on 04/01/2003 6:37:22 AM PST by Slings and Arrows ("Calling Susan Sarandon a [*bleep!*]: It's not just for Rocky Horror anymore." --John Bergstrom)
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To: Incorrigible
Ha ha! Yeah, I vaguely recall that. As always, truth is indeed stranger than fiction. I think maybe the Onion article was just kinda poking fun at Wisconsin for that, because the Onion is right there in Madison.
37 posted on 04/01/2003 6:37:47 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: July 4th
map out all of the classes

I thought this was required of all UW students!  The campus was so big, you couldn't make your next class in four years nevermind graduate!

38 posted on 04/01/2003 6:37:56 AM PST by Incorrigible
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To: JohnHuang2
The Boy Scout motto? Always be prepared? That is why we gave our kids 3 and 4 letter names. If all else fails, they can always fit their names comfortably into that little oval patch on their work Dickies...
39 posted on 04/01/2003 6:38:28 AM PST by Hatteras (The Thundering Herd Of Turtles ROCK!)
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To: FreedomPoster
When I was in the Army, my roomate was a Georgia Tech graduate. He did it, in some sort of engineering, in 4 years, and was the driver of the 'wreck' for two of those years. Smart guy, hard worker, could party effectively.
40 posted on 04/01/2003 6:40:07 AM PST by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo Mesopotamiam Esse Delendam)
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To: newgeezer
Going over the resume and ... Hmmm, Degree in Women Studies[.] Oh, so you're a lesbian?
Mrs. Schlafly is a Christian and a conservative.
sar·casm särkzm n. 1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound. 2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule. 3. The use of sarcasm.

41 posted on 04/01/2003 6:42:48 AM PST by steve-b
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To: JohnHuang2
BTW, I took five years, but I also worked almost full-time. I think if I didn't have to work, I could have done it in four.

But, things might have changed in the last few years. I got in just before they started requiring all the diversity crap.

42 posted on 04/01/2003 6:42:54 AM PST by B Knotts
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To: CatoRenasci
I agree about looking at a school's catalog, not only the courses but the required (core) courses for graduation. One caution about college catalogs: about 20% of the courses listed are rarely taught or have not been taught in years. I kept looking for one particular course at registration only to find out it had not been taught in five years.
43 posted on 04/01/2003 6:46:33 AM PST by LWalk18
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To: HitmanNY
I knew a guy in high school who ended up majoring in womens studies. Go figure.

All of the guys I knew in college studied women, some intimately.

44 posted on 04/01/2003 6:48:00 AM PST by Protagoras (Putting government in charge of morality is like putting pedophiles in charge of children)
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To: JohnHuang2
When I saw my state university's four year graduation rate was 18%, I balked and went to a private, out of state school. Now I am halfway through grad school and I have friends from my high school class who still have not graduated six years later.
45 posted on 04/01/2003 6:49:32 AM PST by LWalk18
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To: CatoRenasci
I managed it in 12 academic quarters (I did take one course once during a co-op quarter), but I'd say that no more than 50% or 60% did it that way.

Pretty cool about your roomie being a Wreck driver. That's a sought-after position.

I did pretty well on both grades and partying, but I had a roommate that was second to none. Literally a 4.0 in Physics (a *really* tough major at Tech), and could drink you under the table, crush beer cans Belushi-like into his head, that sort of thing. LOL! Ah, the memories of a mis-spent youth. ;-)

46 posted on 04/01/2003 6:49:40 AM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: HitmanNY
I knew a guy in high school who ended up majoring in womens studies. Go figure.

Every guy that gets married starts this curriculum when they put on the ring ...

47 posted on 04/01/2003 6:50:36 AM PST by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: JohnHuang2
Also high school students should take as many Advanced Placement class and the related exams as possible. You can come in a semester or even an entire year ahead, giving you a little breathing room.
48 posted on 04/01/2003 6:52:56 AM PST by LWalk18
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To: kidd
I have a sophmore in high school.

Consider community colleges. If planned right, most credits taken in a local, inexpensive two-year school will transfer to just about any four-year school including the Ivies.

And the professors work a lot harder.

49 posted on 04/01/2003 6:54:22 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: Incorrigible
I thought this was required of all UW students! The campus was so big, you couldn't make your next class in four years nevermind graduate!

Good one! Not too far from the truth though. Class times in undergrad were 15 minutes apart, but some lecture halls on campus were definitely spaced far enough apart that they couldn't be walked to in that amount of time.

My apartment was near the far east edge of the campus - the last lecture hall on the west end was probably a half-hour's walk away. You definitely had to check the rooms on the timetable to make sure you could make class.
50 posted on 04/01/2003 6:55:36 AM PST by July 4th
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