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Dear Germany: Have you learned anything?
Townhall.com ^ | April 8, 2003 | Dennis Prager

Posted on 04/07/2003 11:22:23 PM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla

Dear Germany: Have you learned anything?
Dennis Prager

April 8, 2003

I grew up, as many Americans and nearly all Jews did, with a deep anger at your country. But as a young man, I began to rethink my views of Germans. Against the wishes of almost everyone I knew -- most of whom would not even buy a German product -- I decided to go to Germany. My visit in 1968, at the age of 20, was the first of at least a dozen trips to your country.

In fact, I became a defender of yours.

I argued that it was wrong to hold any German who had been younger than 13 years old during the war morally responsible for your country's horrific crimes. I chose the age of 13 because in Judaism, that is the age of moral culpability. I argued in 1968 that every German then under the age of 40 must be regarded as blameless, and we should not assume the worst of every German over 40.

I argued that because Volkswagen and Mercedes defied the Arab boycott and did business with Israel, Jews should not boycott German products.

I argued that you were our staunch ally in the Cold War in confronting Soviet Communism.

I argued, most important of all, that Germans were ashamed of their Nazi past and had learned great moral lessons from it.

The last argument, I now realize, was more hope than fact. There is no question that the vast majority of Germans are ashamed of Nazism and the Holocaust. But I am now as certain as I am sad that you learned nothing about good and evil from it, and that you are as confused morally today as you were when you supported Hitler. Not because you are evil, but because you cannot recognize evil.

This is stunning. Unlike the Japanese, who have ignored their atrocities against the Chinese and Koreans, you confronted your evil. You taught the next generations of Germans about Nazism and about the Holocaust.

It is therefore incredible that all that education about evil has produced a generation that shies away from judging, let alone confronting, evil. It boggles the mind that a nation that was liberated from Nazism solely by armies waging war should embrace pacifism, that a nation that saw what appeasement of evil leads to now embraces it.

I was sure that some German leaders would stand up and say, "My fellow Germans, we know a Hitler when we see one, and Saddam Hussein is one." But no German stood up to say this. Instead one of your leaders compared the American president to Hitler.

I was sure that some German leaders would stand up and say, "My fellow Germans, we know genocidal anti-Semitism when we see it, and we see it in the Arab world." But no German leader stood up to say this either.

Few of us expected anything from the French. From the Jacobins and the guillotine, to the Dreyfus trial, to the Vichy regime, to de Gaulle's withdrawal from anti-Communist NATO, France, with rare exceptions, has done little that is moral and nothing that is courageous. So the disdain that many Americans have long felt for France has merely been reinforced.

But I think that I speak in the name of many Americans in saying that we expected more of you. Because of what we did for you after World War II and during the Cold War. Because you, of all people, know that Americans are a decent people. And especially because of your experience with evil. How could you have produced a Hitler and not recognize another one just one generation later? How could you know firsthand about torture chambers and children's screams and not ache to end them in another country? How could you side with amoral France against your friend America?

There is, it would seem, only one answer. Nazism taught you nothing. Instead of learning that evil must be fought, you learned that fighting is evil.

But thanks for Bach.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: goodjudgment; prager; recognizingevil
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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I once noted to Prager on-air that too many of his callers seem more afraid of being called judgmental than of condemning evil of any sort when they see it. He awarded me a cigar and wrote an article for the WSJ on fear of beling labeled judgmental 8-9 months later. Looks like he's making some headway. Afterall, look at all the blessedly judgmental people here at FR!

1 posted on 04/07/2003 11:22:23 PM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
Prager can be a real goob. But this one seems to reveal the proper truth in good style.
2 posted on 04/07/2003 11:26:25 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
The instrument of war is morally neutral. (It can be used for good or for evil). There are times when we must fight evil with force to avoid greater harm to the innocent and to prevent the triumph of evil men. The objection to a war on behalf of good is as nonsensical as backing a war to take over the world by force. Pity the Germans for failing to learn the difference, namely that sometimes a war can be just.
3 posted on 04/07/2003 11:27:50 PM PDT by goldstategop (Lara Logan Doesn't Hold A Candle Next To BellyGirl :))
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4 posted on 04/07/2003 11:28:41 PM PDT by Mo1 (I'm a monthly Donor .. You can be one too!!)
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To: Mo1
Am I supposed to get some meaning from that pic?
6 posted on 04/07/2003 11:47:35 PM PDT by mercy
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To: mercy
I guess not
7 posted on 04/07/2003 11:51:21 PM PDT by Mo1 (I'm a monthly Donor .. You can be one too!!)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: Avoiding_Sulla
This is a topic I have been giving much thought to lately.

Many people blame all Germans for Hitler's terrifying reign. But I have to wonder, what about the simple families who found themselves under the rule of a horrific dictator? I'm sure there were Germans who weren't a bit interested in politics, they just wanted their families and friends to prosper and lead healthy lives. Then, Hitler came to power. A lot of German people were terrified to find themselves living under a dictator who killed people who went against him, and who killed people because of their ethnicity.

I remember reading a story about 2 young college students who passed out anti-Hitler leaflets at their university. They were caught by Hitler's henchmen, and taken to the town square where they were beheaded to show others what would happen to them if they dared to speak out against Hitler. People were scared for their lives and the lives of their children. It takes a very special, brave person to fight something like that.

I have tried to put myself in that position. Say I was a 35 year old mother when Hitler came to power. Say I was more interested in my family and gardening and such than in politics, which many people are. Are such people to be blamed? I don't think so. Such people were caught in the wrong country in the worst possible time period. Needless to say, it was the worst possible time for Jews, but they weren't alone in being persecuted. Many Germans, Jewish and Gentile, lived in absolute fear. The lucky people escaped from Germany in time.

Let's say Hillary becomes our president in 2004. Many of us would not have voted for her, but she would win. Suddenly, we could find ourselves in the same situation as the Germans in the 1930s. I wouldn't put it past that woman to put certain people away the same way Hitler did. It could easily become a reign of terror. Would we all be at fault for that? In 50 years or so, would the world call all Americans Hillaryites or whatever the new term for nazis would be? Would America suffer from a reputation as being an evil country full of evil people because of the evil actions of President Hillary? Would that be fair? I don't think so. It's like accusing all Iraqis of being evil because of Saddam. There were many Germans such as those college students who risked their lives opposing Hitler, many of them indeed being sent to the camps and/or executed.

We're so used to seeing shows on TV depicting scenes of huge rallies where German citizens came out to worship their hero Hitler. However, we rarely hear of those brave souls (and terrified housewifes!) who were extremely unhappy over what had happened to their country. Those good people need to be remembered too.

I think there is a lot of unnecessary hatred and feelings of wanting revenge towards Germans because of the way that history is presented to us, as if every single German Gentile was a big fan of Hitler. We need to remember that evil became unleashed on the earth during that time period, and many people lived under terrible stress and fear, and of course millions died. We need to remember the good souls who fought against this evil, many paying with their lives. Things are not so black and white the way they are presented on TV and in movies. Not all Germans liked Hitler, not by a long shot, just like not all of us are fans of Hillary.

9 posted on 04/08/2003 12:20:50 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: DBtoo
People here in America who have any brains at all should by now realise that hillery is evil. If you were to vote for her you would be supportting evil itself.
By the way she has reported to treat aids and service people. By the way she flaunts laws and feels a sence of entitlement. By the way she has treated other peoples monies and property of the govt. (which she stole) as her own.The Germans and french deserve everyones scorn. They have supported bad causes and should pay a price. But if we were to support evil then we too should bear a burden.
10 posted on 04/08/2003 12:41:39 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
I argued that you were our staunch ally in the Cold War in confronting Soviet Communism.

Profile: Gerhard Schroeder

In 1978, he was also elected chairman of Germany's young socialists.

The young Schroeder was a Marxist and environmentalist. In the early 1970s he idolised SPD chancellor Willy Brandt, whose Ostpolitik promised better relations with communist Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.

11 posted on 04/08/2003 12:47:26 AM PDT by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
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To: Joe Boucher
I find Hillary very frightening and would never vote for her. However, there are many in our country who would. She seems to have a way of getting what she wants. When she "thought about" running for the NY senate, I knew she would run, and I knew she would win. I do worry that she will run for president, and by hook or crook, she may very well win, and we could find ourselves in very dire circumstances.

By the way, my grandmother and Jewish step-grandfather did escape Austria in time. They felt some very bad things were about to happen. His parents were not so lucky however. They thought it would be safe to stay in Austria, but because they were Jewish, they were taken away to the camps where they died. Many people thought it could not happen to them.

12 posted on 04/08/2003 12:48:44 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: DBtoo
It is of course, ludicrous to brand all germans "nazis", then and now!

Hitler's rise to power was a popular movement - he "spoke" to the common man and they fell for his lies. After he assumed power, he did many things publically which the common man wnated - secretly he built his "evil" reich. During the war, many still supported him for trying to "unite" the german people - it wasn't until the "evil" parts of the reich became readily apparent, that the common man began to "resist". This could happen "anywhere".

After the war - and especially amoung the young - the "collective guilt" syndrom became something which several generations have tried to throw off - rightly. It is morally wrong to continueally condemn an entire people for actions which occurred before the majority of said people were even born.

The author of the article though, has missed a crucial point - the german people, as a whole, are not pacifists; instead they have forgotten the REAL lesson of the 1930's - always question the motives of those in charge! Only when you are convinced that your leaders are following a moral path, should you support them.

Bruce Springsteen, in an anti-war song, made the statement "Blind faith in your leaders can get you killed!". This is still true today - in Germany, the USA, and just about everywhere else.

The Germans, based solely on on the words of thier leaders and in defiance of all objective evidence to the contrary, reject THIS war. In Kosovo, the situation was the same - but in this case they easily accepted the war - even the notoriously "pacifist" Greens party!

13 posted on 04/08/2003 1:11:36 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate
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To: DBtoo
"Needless to say, it was the worst possible time for Jews, but they weren't alone in being persecuted. Many Germans, Jewish and Gentile, lived in absolute fear."

Yes, but only Jews in Germany and elsewhere were marked out for total annihilation in a pre-planned industrial slaughter. And it was this annihilation that lay at the very heart of Nazi philosophy. To suggest that there was some sort of equivalence between German Jews and German gentiles is a distortion that ranks alongside Holocaust denial in its perversity. But what can anyone really say about a person who compares Adolph Hitler with Hillary Clinton in trying to whitewash the wickedness of Germany except that he is both very cowardly and extremely bad?

And can anyone be so incredibly naive to believe that Hitler all by himself carried out the Holocaust? To suggest that a monster like Hitler could arise in America is one thing, but to suppose that there could be millions of people who would carry out his evil schemes is a vile insult to all citizens of that great nation.

"There were many Germans such as those college students who risked their lives opposing Hitler, many of them indeed being sent to the camps and/or executed."

This is an almost complete fabrication. What marked out the German resistance as so singular is that it hardly existed. Apart from the brief period of the tiny White Rose movement there was hardly any popular opposition; your story of the two college students is also very highly colored - the Scholls of the White Rose were not executed in any town square but secretly in a Gestapo prison cell.

And as personal observers of the time like William Shirer pointed out whatever complaints the German people had against the regime, and there were many, the one thing they were almost all agreed about was the treatment of the Jews. What little resistance came about had absolutely nothing to do with the fate of the Jewish people but a belief that the war would lead to the destruction of Germany.

Germany (and, of course, Austria) could not have murdered the great majority of the Jews in Europe without the almost complete co-operation of the occupied countries like Holland, France Ukraine, Poland and Belgium. But only in Germany was the Holocaust planned, and in such minute detail. Only Germany devoted enormous resources to carrying it out. It was only in Germany that millions of "ordinary" German civilians and troops, aside from a huge contigent of SS, Gestapo, and Nazi functionaries worked day and night to to exterminate all the Jews of Europe.

Anyone who knows Germany well today is fully cognisant of the fact that there is little genuine remorse for the terrible crimes of that time. No, what really angers them is that Germany was defeated.

In trying to diminish the genocide of the Jews by the Germans while at the same time attempting to expunge the guilt of that nation, it makes you, in essence, no different to the individuals who carried out those foul deeds in the first place.

14 posted on 04/08/2003 1:22:52 AM PDT by Asher
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To: DBtoo
That was the refrain at the time,
"it couldn't happen here".
15 posted on 04/08/2003 1:28:00 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: DBtoo
"They thought it would be safe to stay in Austria, but because they were Jewish, they were taken away to the camps where they died. Many people thought it could not happen to them."

Again you lie. Those Jews who could get out of Germany did. Most German Jews who stayed did so because there was nowhere in the world that would accept them. Austria only became part of the Nazi/German empire in 1938 by which time the gates of the entire world were almost closed to Jews trying to flee the disaster that awaited them. That's why so many Austrian Jews were murdered - ditto Poland, France, Holland, Belgium etc. etc. etc.

Trust you to attempt to blame the Jews for their own deaths. Instead you should turn your attentions to the anti-Semitic immigration policies of Canada, Britain and the U.S. that had been instituted at that time. Luck had nothing to do with it. Jew hatred did.
16 posted on 04/08/2003 1:30:19 AM PDT by Asher
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To: Asher
Though most of what you stated was correct, Hitlers Nazi also targeted Gypsies, homosexuals as well as handicapped,
not just Jews(not to make light of the Jews).
17 posted on 04/08/2003 1:32:23 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
I love Dennis Prager. He is my political and philosophical mentor.

Bless him.

18 posted on 04/08/2003 1:34:35 AM PDT by happygrl (Praying without ceasing)
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To: DBtoo
We need to remember the good souls who fought against this evil, many paying with their lives.

Yes, we do. Those "good" people who remained silent were complicit because of their silence. When the circumstances in life require that you speak out against evil, silence=assent. If you're goning to die, better to die for something than for nothing.

19 posted on 04/08/2003 1:41:52 AM PDT by happygrl (Praying without ceasing)
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To: Joe Boucher
"Though most of what you stated was correct, Hitlers Nazi also targeted Gypsies, homosexuals as well as handicapped,
not just Jews(not to make light of the Jews)."

Jewish extermination was lay at the heart of the philosophy and the military campaign. Hatred of the Jews is what for the most part drove Hitler and the German people. Others were targeted but it was the Jews by far that bore the brunt. And it was only Jews (even those with just a Jewish grandparent) who were marked for total annihilation. The great majority in Europe of the handicapped and homosexuals together with very many Gypsies survived. Most Jews did not. In Poland of those Jews who were living there in 1939 only 1% survived - over 3 million were murdered by war's end.


20 posted on 04/08/2003 1:42:51 AM PDT by Asher
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To: DBtoo
I remember now. You are the poster who invariably informs the Jewish people that they should keep quiet about the Holocaust because it makes them look weak. I guess it's unsurprising when you put it together with your other vile ideas.

21 posted on 04/08/2003 1:51:32 AM PDT by Asher
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To: Asher
Anyone who knows Germany well today is fully cognisant of the fact that there is little genuine remorse for the terrible crimes of that time. No, what really angers them is that Germany was defeated.

How much time have you spent in Germany? I have lived here most of my life and can tell you that your claim is absolute B.S.

Read Prager's article again, he has it right.

Also, your vitriolic attack on DBtoo is uncalled for and you should apologize.

22 posted on 04/08/2003 1:53:38 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: Asher
No argument there mate.
Again not meaning to make light of the Jews plight during WWII, but evil has popped up since then also mostly in parts of Africa (Rwanda as well as Asia (Cambodia) and in these and other purges the world did nothing.
I mean we just don't want to get involved. They are only Jews or Africans or Asians. Pretty sickening but that is the way it seems.
23 posted on 04/08/2003 2:06:52 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: Asher
This resentment against all German Gentiles is not healthy. My family had first-hand experiences there, and not all non-Jews hated Jews; many were friends and many married.

Since the 70s, there has been a lot of hateful propaganda against the Germans, and it has worked remarkably well, as your post shows. I'm sorry you feel so much anger and hate, it can only be harmful to you. This attitude of some concerns me because it doesn't have to be that way; it's a needless suffering of sorts.

I don't believe the Dutch were complicit in the extermination of the Jews. I lived in Holland a few years ago, and they too hate the Germans and have deep resentments because of the brutal occupation of Holland. Many Dutch starved to death, and the Nazis took away Dutch Jews as well. Please do not judge people collectively, that only leads to needless suffering and continued violence. I stand by my statement that not all Germans who were not Jewish worshipped Hitler. Many hid Jews and gave up their lives to try to get rid of Hitler and the nazis. Those people do deserve to be remembered. The 2 college students, who were a brother and sister aged 19 and 20 were beheaded in public. Perhaps you are thinking of a similar incident. But resentment and hatred are bad for your heart and your spirit. This is not a perfect world, and at times evil is unleashed.

Jews were a main target, as were Gypsys, Catholics, and homosexuals, and those who disagreed with Hitler. I'm sorry you have so much anger in your heart. If you knew the entire truth you would see things in an entirely different light, and your heart would be free of such hatred. I lost my real grandfather there; he was executed.

24 posted on 04/08/2003 2:46:30 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: americanbychoice; An.American.Expatriate; a_Turk; austinTparty; BMCDA; CatoRenasci; demlosers; ...
German ping.

Here's a Swiss article BMCDA sent me. It is long (too long for me to translate right now), however it does fit in nicely with Prager's article.

Ist die «Umerziehung» zu weit gegangen?

Re: My thoughts on the posts on these threads:

I think the German baby boomers have had the history of the 2nd world war 're-educated' completely out of them. I don't think they could make any comments over the events in the 30's and 40's that were based on objective material.

People who I have talked to, including those who were German WWII vets, including Germans who were POW's in Russia and the US, never indicated to me that the only remorse was that they lost the war. Those decades were terrible times of millions of deaths and incredible destruction. I have never met anyone who enjoyed it or was interested in a re-do.

longjack

25 posted on 04/08/2003 3:02:47 AM PDT by longjack
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To: An.American.Expatriate
Always question the movtives of those in charge!

Good point. It could happen anywhere, and it does happen because many people assume their country's leaders are always right. When people stick their heads in the sand, and stop questioning, it makes it too easy for those with evil motives to take over.

26 posted on 04/08/2003 3:05:59 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: Asher
After my grandfather was killed, my grandmother married a Jewish man. This was well into the war. Many escaped in the early to mid 30s when they felt trouble coming.

Others, like my grandmother and step-grandfather escaped when it became too late. They did so by hiding in a cargo ship which came to America where they settled.

There has been a lot of negative material put out over the years claiming all Germans were at fault. This is simply not true and impossible if you really think about it; in every country of the world there are some very kind people with love in their hearts for all people. Many during WW2 did hide Jews, risking their lives. The human nature never changes. Germans are not inherently evil; there are evil ones and some very brave moral ones. You have to remember too that there was a very successful propaganda campaign carried out, and people being what they are, always thinking their nation and their people are right, fall for it. Those who think for themselves and do some research find the truth.

27 posted on 04/08/2003 3:19:31 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: longjack
Ist die «Umerziehung» zu weit gegangen?

A good and thoughtful article, which clarifies some of the things I had been thinking about. Thank you for the link!

28 posted on 04/08/2003 3:19:52 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: tictoc
You're welcome, tictoc. BMCDA sent me the link.

longjack

29 posted on 04/08/2003 3:21:53 AM PDT by longjack
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Asher
Again you lie

????????????????

Trust you to blame the Jews for their own deaths

For anyone to blame the Jews and not the nazis for the extermination campaign against the Jews is absurd, and I said nor implied any such thing as you know. Please open your eyes and your heart.

31 posted on 04/08/2003 3:38:02 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: Asher
Believe it or not, there are plenty of people in this world who will go out of their way to help the persecuted, even in 1930s-1940s Germany.
32 posted on 04/08/2003 3:40:45 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: longjack
I think you have it right. The Boomer's in the US have the same problem. What I notice over here is that people under 35 think that the Cold War was some sort of "Marketing Strategy" used for political and economic advantage by "big business." We have lost control of our own history in the US.
33 posted on 04/08/2003 3:51:26 AM PDT by CasearianDaoist
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To: Asher
I remember you now. You are the poster who invariably informs the Jewish people that they should keep quiet about the Holocaust because it makes them look weak.

Either you have me confused with someone else, or you are using dishonest smear tactics. I've never even thought such an idea. It's impossible to debate someone who is not capable of having an honest discussion. I care about people and respect human life very much thankyou. I care about you because you must be unhappy being so obsessed with blind hatred. It's just not healthy. Please try to be more honest and understanding, and realize there are some good Germans out there too.

34 posted on 04/08/2003 3:55:33 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: happygrl
No, those "good" people did not remain silent. They put their lives on the line to stop the evil. The silent ones were too fearful of being executed; it takes a special soul to stick their neck out to save the lives of others at the peril of their own.
35 posted on 04/08/2003 3:59:45 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: DBtoo
It takes a very special, brave person to fight something like that.

You are right, it does take someone special to fight evil. More important it takes that one special leader to recoginize evil, then rally his people to defeat that evil.

Chamberlin," peace in our time" was not that leader. Winston Churchill was. And he met the evil of Hitler headlong, not with compromise, or treaty but with war.

Does the women in the garden have the power of Churchill, or President Bush? She does if she wants to. All she has to do is stop digging in the garden long enough to realize that there is evil all around her, and she can stop it just by lifting her head out of the garden(sand)to realize it.

36 posted on 04/08/2003 4:20:31 AM PDT by snodog
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To: DBtoo
"I wouldn't put it past that woman to put certain people away the same way Hitler did. It could easily become a reign of terror."

I never quite thought of her being that evil. You may be right. She just may have the characteristics for another Hitler or Saddam. Let us pray she never is put in a position where she could use her evil ways. First Lady was too close for comfort.

37 posted on 04/08/2003 4:27:09 AM PDT by auggy
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To: snodog
As you probably know, there are people who simply don't pay attention to the political situations in their country. They think such matters are "boring", and they live their lives only thinking of their own families, or their own hobbies. Some don't have the intellect to understand. I'm not saying whether that is right or wrong, it's just the way it is in life. Even now in this country many people just aren't interested in the war in progress. I see that in my own community. Those who do care are here on FR and writing to their congressmen and letting their voices be heard.

Again, it is hard to stand up to a cruel totalitarian regime. Look at what Saddam did to such people.

38 posted on 04/08/2003 4:31:08 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: happygrl
I too respect and admire Dr. Prager a great deal. It is interesting to me that IIRC the Torah does not always support forgiving the children for the sins of the fathers. And for good reason -- the acorn doesn't fall so far from the tree. But I can see at least giving them the benefit of the doubt.

What I see in Germany, particularly since the reunification, concerns me greatly. I think Germany, and France, have gone far beyond refusing to confront evil in Iraq. They embraced Saddam. They still embrace him. It is distasteful.

Thank God there is still a core of people here in the US determined to do the right thing whatever the cost. We've been infiltrated by the godless socialists, but we still have a core of righteousness and an awakening to the reality of the world is happening. God has obviously been with us in this conflict. We need to stand firm.
39 posted on 04/08/2003 4:32:26 AM PDT by johnb838 (Understand the root causes of American anger)
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To: longjack
You are correct longjack - Germans do not, as a rule, really "learn" about the Nazi period - it is a very strange predicament - too much information about what really lead to the rise of Hitler leads to accusations of anti-semitism - too little and they are ignoring history.

It is time to shed the collective guilt trip and really learn from the past. Won't happen any time soon though.

(PS I have a daughter who attended German Schools so I do have first hand knowledge of what is taught/not taught.)
40 posted on 04/08/2003 4:43:17 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate
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To: DBtoo
You conveniently forgot the post the rest ... "...always question the motives of those in charge! Only when you are convinced that your leaders are following a moral path, should you support them. "
41 posted on 04/08/2003 4:45:20 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate
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To: An.American.Expatriate
You're right, and that's a good point.
42 posted on 04/08/2003 5:02:07 AM PDT by DBtoo
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To: DBtoo
DBtoo, I recently read a portion of one of Dietrich Bonhoffers works. Even if he were to have stood alone, against every last individual of his nation, his moral courage and willing martydom conclusively supports your feelings.
43 posted on 04/08/2003 6:46:33 AM PDT by nkycincinnatikid
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
"My fellow Germans, we know a Hitler when we see one, and Saddam Hussein is one."

Instead, what they say is "My fellow Germans, we know a Hitler when we see one, and George Bush is one."

44 posted on 04/08/2003 7:29:28 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (...and Freedom tastes of Reality.)
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To: Karl B
Do you forget the Mac Carthy antisemit era ?

Please describe in detail this so-called "Mac Carthy antisemit era", including of course a list of victims.

45 posted on 04/08/2003 7:31:32 AM PDT by ExpandNATO
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To: auggy
I never quite thought of her being that evil.

To a certain extent, her husband might be a self-absorbed Arkansas "Good ol' Boy" (but still a very dark spot on American history), but Miz Hillary herself is, and always has been, the true snake-in-the-grass of the pair.

If you want to be sick to your stomach, contemplate the Patriot Act enforced by her, the Forehead and Serpent Head.

46 posted on 04/08/2003 7:35:11 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (...and Freedom tastes of Reality.)
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To: DBtoo
I don't believe the Dutch were complicit in the extermination of the Jews.

You are correct that not all Dutch were complicit in the Shoah. In fact, many individuals (who happened to be Dutch) literally risked their lives to save Jews (one needs only to read "The Diary of Anne Frank" to know this). However, the Dutch were also the greatest source of SS members (per capita) in all of Europe, excepting only Germany itself and Austria. Like any other country or other large group of people, it had (and has) good and bad people. Just as the Germans were and are not uniformly evil, neither are the Dutch (or any other nation) uniformly good.

While I agree that not all of the people of a country can be held responsible for the actions of a few, Germany has a very interesting culture - interesting in a bad sense. I don't recall the film (I think it may have been "Schindler's List"), but there was (relatively recently) a film that was shown in Western Germany regarding the Shoah. One American was there and sat in silent horror as virtually the entire audience (including many learned and cultured people) cheered when Jews were murdered and expressed sorrow or anger when Nazis were killed. No, not all Germans are like this, but the fact that something like this could happen in view of that nation's sordid past is extremely disturbing.

I'd also like to relate a personal anecdote. I visited a buddie of mine who was in the Army and based near Munich in 1990. He was a bit late picking me up at the airport, and as I waited I saw literally dozens of people come into the terminal with their dogs to pick up friends or family. One day later, we were at a restaurant and a family walked in with its dog (which sat under the table and never uttered a peep or begged for food). I asked my friend about the health code and why this was allowed, and he said that the Germans are very attached to their dogs and that this is, as a result, considered normal. I thought to myself "OK, fine, its a bit strange to me, but that's their culture" - and I didn't give it another thought. Until, that is, my friend and I visited Dachau on the way back to the airport a couple of days later. After leaving there I remarked to him "Isn't it strange that this culture, which so cares for its dogs that it brings them everywhere, even where food is served, could have committed genocide as part of its official policy?" He had no answer, and neither do I. German culture is utterly alien to me - I just can't fathom such a dichotomy of values.

Oh, BTW, I do blame a large number of Germans for their country's present foreign policy - after all, Schroeder won re-election in November on an explicitly anti-American platform. I'm aware that many Germans voted against Schroeder and his party, but more voted for him.

47 posted on 04/08/2003 9:06:59 AM PDT by Ancesthntr
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Avoiding_Sulla
As infuriating as it is to see a manifestation of it like this, this refusal to judge is the natural result of the way the world is going. By shoving God out of the way, as Creator and as the Giver of morals, we've put the responsibility for it all in the hands of man. And if man is solely responsible, then there are no absolutes, no rights and wrongs, beyond what each person declares it to be for them. No one wants to judge, because they're afraid to be judged for their own wrongs. Gosh knows we have plenty of this kind of thinking in our own country.

MM

49 posted on 04/08/2003 9:17:24 AM PDT by MississippiMan
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To: MississippiMan
Prager is today (right now) comparing this article with one published today by Gunter Grass who wrote he is PROUD of Germany for being concerned about Power. Prager is sadly delighted because Grass proves his point.

Also, to your point -- Prager is constantly harping in favor of your point -- that without God at center, morality becomes unhinged. Ideals that become humano-centered rather than outside and above humanity, naturally suffer from the imperfections that are inherent in humanity.
50 posted on 04/08/2003 9:55:40 AM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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