How deep is US-Europe rift?

BBC News Online ^ | April 09 2003 | Steve Schifferes

[knighthawk]

The split between the United States and many European countries over Iraq has revealed deeper divisions that may take years to heal.

As the war against Iraq moves to its close, relations between the US and Europe have reached a new low.

The disagreement over the role of the United Nations in rebuilding Iraq is likely to continue, and the bitterness in the United States against its betrayal by allies like France are not diminishing.

Meanwhile, the standing of the United States among the European public has plummeted.

And foreign policy experts say that the rift is deep, could be difficult to mend, and may spill over into other areas.

US rethink

There are several deeper reasons for the split.

According to Jessica Matthews, the president of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the fundamental difference is that the events of 11 September changed attitudes towards international relations much more in the United States than elsewhere.

It was the increased sense of vulnerability that led the US to consider pre-emptive action, because it felt it no longer had the luxury of time to wait for allies to come on board.

But it makes it much more difficult to envisage the kind of global cooperation that the US had previously sought.

Cold War

At another level, since the Cold War ended, Europe is no longer seen to be of the same strategic importance to the United States, according to Dr Christoph Bertram, the former director of the Institute for Strategic Studies.

This has come as an enormous shock to the Europeans, who have suddenly realised that they are no longer indispensable to America -and that America was no longer backing their project to unify Europe.

Dr Bertram says that the rift is so bad that President Bush has not spoken to the German chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, for many months.

He says that only closer collaboration between France and Germany, especially at the military level, will be able to redress the strategic balance and make the US take Europe seriously again.

Cultural differences

For author Robert Kagan, it is the growing cultural divide between Europe and America is just as important as the different strategic interest.

Mr Kagan, whose new book argues that "it is time to stop pretending that Europeans and Americans share a common view of the world," argues that Europe has developed a outlook that stresses peace and the rule of law, which is modelled on the creation of the European Union.

Americans, he says, are more militaristic and look at the world in black-and-white terms, as they assume the role of the world's sole superpower.

It is, he implies a natural split between the strong and the weak, who always want the rule of law to restrain the strong.

Mr Kagan says the change is rooted in the whole post-war experience of the two sides, and will be very difficult to change.

But Iraq was the "perfect storm" which brought out all the differences at once.

However, other crisis points like Iran or North Korea could also highlight the difference in approach, with Europe preferring engagement and the US confrontation, according to former National Security Council deputy James Steinberg.

Damaged institutions

It is the international institutions that are designed to bridge these deep differences in ideology.

But Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution think-tank argues that the institutions of international cooperation have been fundamentally damaged.

He warns that spin-offs could occur in areas such as Nato or the World Trade Organisation, where the US and the EU are currently negotiating a highly contentious trade deal.

And he says there is no going back to the cosy old world of the transatlantic partnership.

He argues that the reconstruction of Iraq could be an opportunity to build a bridge back to Europe by involving the UN.

But with little sign of the Bush administration adopting that approach, it seems likely when the fog of war lifts it will reveal a chasm.

[knighthawk]

"He argues that the reconstruction of Iraq could be an opportunity to build a bridge back to Europe by involving the UN"

- No, thanks.

Europe-list

If people want on or off this list, please let me know.

[knighthawk]

THEY'RE BAAAAAACK! (Axis of Weasels)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/889214/posts

[Conspiracy Guy]

DEEEEEEEEEEEP.

[2timothy3.16]

How deep? Well, can you visualize a bottomless pit?

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[Shermy]

Kagan has "gone native" with his delusional French friends.

But therre's always the BBC to spin the anti-American angle. It's kind of a delusion now, seeing that "Europe", e.g., the UK, is in lock-step with the US.

[TopQuark]

How deep is US-Europe rift?

I thought this question was settled long ago: it's called the Atlantic Ocean.

[r9etb]

Better question: Can the EU survive after France and Germany tipped their hands?

[kevao]

Vey, seriesly, and hughly deep.

[Michael81Dus]

I believe that the EU should become stronger, yeah. How? Don´t know, but what I know is, that this should not going to happen against the US, but with the US. Therefore, I don´t want to see the current German or French governments having more weight in the EU, but Europeans, who are willing to be a partner to the US.

I´m sure that Europe and the US will have some more conflicts in future, but we need to find basics which we are aware of and which are so strong that we can handle all problems not only peacefully but in partner- and friendship.

[Dog Gone]

The writer confuses the Axis of Weasels with Europe. They're not synonymous.

[mewzilla]

Which Europe? There's no rift with the New Europe. There can't big a big enough rift with Old Europe.

[mabelkitty]

It's hugh and vey series.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Every effing European leader not named Blair, Berlesconi, and Aznar (and whoever is running things in Bulgaria) needs to get down on all fours and APOLOGIZE to world for being so wrong, yet again, and APOLOGIZE directly to the Iraqi people, to Bush, and to Blair, for the last years worth of abuse they have taken because of themselves. They need to specifically remind the world that freedom is not just for Europeans only.

They must not be allowed to crawl back in their holes quietly, hoping to escape scrutiny, and plan their next anti-American objectives...which is EXACTLY what they wish to do.

[taxcontrol]

President Bush needs to put out the word that the US Constitution provides a means of statehood and should US friendly countries (Poland comes to mind) wish to apply for statehood, their application will be seriously considered.

That would put a bee in the French / German bonnet.

Can you imagine the political battle if Poland actually withdrew it's application to the EU and asked to become a state of the US?

Wouldn't take long for other coutries to follow I'd imagine.

[Mihalis]

Let's keep it as deep as possible please.

[xJones]

But Iraq was the "perfect storm" which brought out all the differences at once.

It certainly did that, although I doubt how "perfect" it was. Chirac had better not plan a state trip over here, the price of eggs and tomatoes would sky-rocket as stores ran out with buyers purchasing for throwing purposes.

[Bluntpoint]

"How deep is US-Europe rift?"

How deep can a "bunker bomb" go?

That deep!

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Meanwhile, the standing of the United States among the European public has plummeted.

Earth to Europe. Hello Europe. Check out the latest images from Baghdad. You were wrong. You are still wrong. This is the planet Earth in the early 21st century. What the hell alternate universe are you living in?? Wake the hell up!!

[Sam Cree]

Hi, knighthawk.

"Mr Kagan, whose new book argues that "it is time to stop pretending that Europeans and Americans share a common view of the world," argues that Europe has developed a outlook that stresses peace and the rule of law, which is modelled on the creation of the European Union."

Kagan is so wrong in this it that it makes one question his honesty.

The European Union, as far as I can see, owes much to socialism. Socialism, because it treats everyone differently(unequally) in an attempt to make them "equal" relies on arbitrary use of the law at the whim of bureaucracy and officials. This is the Rule of Men, not the Rule of Law.

The "Rule of Law" is exactly the opposite of this, it means that all citizens are equal before the law and are treated exactly the same, regardelss of who they are. Justice operates according to the law and is never arbitrary. Justice is blind. The entire U.S. theory of freedom is based on this concept, while the European concept, which owes is roots to France is based on the opposite.

So America represents the Rule of Law, while Europe, and the rest of the world, represent the Rule of Men. This is root of the difference between America and Europe.

[Sam Cree]

20,000 feet or so? BBC seems upset that Saddam didn't win.

[pepsi_junkie]

However, other crisis points like Iran or North Korea could also highlight the difference in approach, with Europe preferring engagement and the US confrontation, according to former National Security Council deputy James Steinberg.

Oh, is this so? Okay Europe, take the lead with the North Korea situation. Let's see how you handle it. We'll wait and see what you come up with.

[PeoplesRep_of_LA]

Kagan is a EU apoligist. So is this pathetic author. If said author can honestly admit that in a Post Cold War world backing a Fortress Europe is not important, why then wring his hands about this chasm? They're scared, but their ideology hasn't changed.

This article you linked before is much better than Kagan's tripe; http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/800358/posts

[Michael81Dus]

Of course the EU will survive. We´re stick together, not only with the Euro.

[TheDon]

The "rift" is only as deep as the worm's political fortunes. He will rue the day he stoked up French nationalism to help his failing presidency.

[Mister Baredog]

The split between the United States and many European countries over Iraq

How many, let's see the list(I think he means France and some of Germany) We have more allies than they do, period, so they should just SHUT UP!!!

[maxamillion]

I think the turks should be included in this axis of weasels... When the americans were leaving turkey, the people were in the streets yelling, goodbye americans & don't come back...
Screw the turks...

[TopQuark]

If you haven't already you may want to look at this article.

[knighthawk]

Americans, he says, are more militaristic and look at the world in black-and-white terms

Yep, it's that old 'we Europeans are so sophesticated and you are not' attitude.

[americanbychoice]

As I have said for quite some time now, Schroeder and Chirac have gambled on the take-over of the EU. Now they want to create an EU military force. They apparently know that NATO will never be what it was before. I still maintain that the U.S. will develop a new partnership without France,Germany and Belgium. There are difficult times ahead for the EU. When the postponed D'Estaign constitution is revealed in November, it will be do or Die for the EU. Scroeder and Chirac are gambling and they along with their new partner , Russia mat stand alone.

[Scothia]

Next time I have an opportunity to travel to Europe, I think I'll visit Poland. Yeah, well, I'll stop by England, too, if Blair is still in office.

[Sam Cree]

They think socialism is sophisticated, I guess. What it really is is sophistry.

[philetus]

Not Deep Enough?

[spokeshave]

Can u imagine Poland as 51st state with 2nd ammendment rights....drive the lefties crazy

[ellery]

Bump for later read -- today is far too glorious a day to bother with the axis of weasel.

[truth_seeker]

Do not worry about the USA.

This episode has divided (and therefore weakened) Europe, and the Middle East.

In each case, they need us far more, than we need them.

A few countries have sufficient wisdom (and moral clarity) to understand these facts. They are called: "The Coalition of the Willing"

Nations outside this coalition should shut up, for ahile.

[r9etb]

Of course the EU will survive. We´re stick together, not only with the Euro.

Maybe. But this whole deal has showed two things: that France and Germany want to control EU foreign policy, and that many countries don't agree with them.

I think this has opened a lot of little cracks.

[Redleg Duke]

The events since 9-11 have reminded all of us who have European Roots why our beloved ancestors left that snakepit in the first place!

How deep a split? Does the intitials "AMF" ring a bell?

[americanbychoice]

Wide cracks, a good opportunity for the U.S. to get them into NAFTA and to create a new NATO without Germany, France and Belgium. Of course, they have their new Friends and protectors, the Russians. Ironic, isn't it?

[Kozak]

argues that Europe has developed a outlook that stresses peace and the rule of law, which is modelled on the creation of the European Union.

And of course the ungreatful pricks forget the reason for their peace and security was 50 years behind the American Shield.

[Pagey]

How deep is US-Europe rift?

Hopefully, it is worse than any of us imagine. This really puts the U.S.A. in a dominant position world-wide, much to the rest of the worlds 'Socialist Left's' dismay. The time is coming in the near future, where our gov't will call out France,Germany,Russia,Mexico(!!!) and the others for their mis-leadership in the Security Council and selling of specific products to Iraq for all these years. No wonder they didn't want us to get rid of Hussein.

[mwl1]

Biden and Feinstein both peddling the nonsense that we, the United States, have tremendous "fence mending" to accomplish with Europe.

F___k that paradigm, senators. They have fences to mend with us.

God I am tired of the bs from liberals.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Hey, Michael, how are things in Germany at the moment? A coworker of mine just returned from a business trip over there, and reported being treated royally.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

This is funny. How do they intend to pay for all of this? Keep in mind, the Germans are already getting severe monetary penalties for broaching the 3% debt limit, and the French will be there soon. More money they won't have to fulfill these plans.

[americanbychoice]

They are gambling. Already the " narcissist" Schroeder is blaming America and the war for his country's plight. I know this is stupid, but he will use this to allow the EU to grant an exception. He will continue to borrow money. They are banking on the "New Eu members" .
They know that the economic recoveries will take place there since the cost of doing business will be much lower. International investment is flowing into that direction and out of Germany and France. After the new Constitution is adopted, and that is where the big gamble comes in, Brussels who will be in control of everything and "Equalising Taxes" will be enforced, they will be able to sit back and milk the new countries.
Welcome to the old, but NEW Aristocracy.

[axxmann]

Thank you. I was trying to phrase what you said for a reply. Yours(#21) is better.

[Eva]

This author is delusional. He tries to paint the conflict between (Old) Europe and the US as cultural. It is not, it is purely economic, as was their support of Saddam Hussein. France and Germany had much to gain from trade with Saddam as they did in thwarting the power of the US.

[Paleo Conservative]

I think this quote pretty much sums it up.

When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse.

Osama bin Lauden

[Yeti]

The disagreement over the role of the United Nations in rebuilding Iraq is likely to continue,

We'd best not go that route. Look what the UN has done for Serbia. If Iraq turns out like that, with all that corruption and vice wielded and enforced by the UN, WE will be blamed.

We need to set up a legit government, leave them to democracy with some nice trade agreements and aid packages, and help them as needed to restore order from the chaos.

Then, if the IRAQIs want UN help, they can ask for it. It is not for us to set up the UN in Iraq.