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China Surges Economically While America Falters
TradeAlert.org ^ | Friday, April 18, 2003 | William R. Hawkins

Posted on 04/19/2003 11:48:33 AM PDT by Willie Green

For education and discussion only. Not for commercial use.

My last column (What Not To Learn From Baghdad) argued that while media and popular attention will always focus on dramatic events like wars, it is the day-in, day-out grind of business which over time shifts the balance of power. Commerce can redistribute industrial capacity, capital and technology between rival states, which in turn convert growing national wealth into expanding international power.

In the last few days, more data has been released by U.S. and Chinese sources that further highlight how Beijing continues to surge forward while Washington falters at home despite its recent demonstration of military power in Iraq. Military power is a lagging indicator. Nations need to create an industrial base upon which to build modern combat capabilities. That capability can then persist for years even if its underlying economic foundation starts to crumble. However, once a state starts to lose its economic edge, it becomes ever more difficult and costly to maintain its military advantages.

Last week´s column looked at China´s steel industry. The pattern seen there of meeting growing demand from domestic production is seen in other areas of heavy industry as well. China has become one of the biggest markets for excavators, with sales of more than 17,000 units during 2002. To meet this demand, the Swedish firm Volvo announced last year the establishment of a wholly-owned production facility in Shanghai's Pudong area. For an investment of around $15 million, Volvo will have a capacity of several thousand units per year with initial production focusing on its newest 20 ton class crawler excavators.

American heavy equipment manufacturer Caterpillar has lobbied hard for detente between Washington and Beijing to create a favorable business climate. Its goals are proclaimed on its corporate website “to be a major supplier of earthmoving and mining equipment, diesel and natural gas engines and electric power generator sets in China. Its strategy for achieving that goal includes establishing a manufacturing base in China. China's goal of quadrupling the gross national output and establishing a ‘Socialist market economy´ present great opportunity for companies such as Caterpillar that can invest in and sell to the massive infrastructure development driving much of that growth.” To that end, Caterpillar Xuzhou Ltd., a joint venture between Caterpillar and Xuzhou Construction Machinery Group, was established “committed to being the leading manufacturer of world-class hydraulic excavators and road building machinery in China.” Caterpillar already produces a variety of engines and chassis components in China within other joint ventures.

In an interview with Barron´s published April 9, General Motors retiring chairman John F. Smith, Jr. said Western automotive-technology companies will be looking for Chinese partners to expand operations in the Chinese vehicle market, as well as to meet demand from U.S., European, and Japanese auto makers for lower-cost vehicle parts. GM, Ford and other large auto makers have outlined ambitious goals to purchase billions of dollars worth of vehicle components from China.

One of the main drivers of Chinese growth is the demand for cars, just as was the case in the United States a half century ago. Almost 440,000 cars rolled off Chinese production lines in the first quarter of this year, as manufacturers raced to keep up with sales that expanded by 56 per cent to 1.13 million units last year. Part of Beijing´s desire to increase domestic steel production has been to provide inputs to the auto industry.

Adherents of the “big emerging market” thesis popular among some American “free trade” economists and Clinton administration officials in the 1990s, had argued that the decline in vehicle import tariffs required of Beijing under its World Trade Organization accession agreement would mean a flow of imported cars to China. Instead, Ford, Mercedes Benz and other major foreign automakers are expanding production in China to meet the demand.

This pattern confirms the view of Professor Robert S. Ross of Boston College that, “China, unlike Japan, has the natural resources to sustain economic development and strategic autonomy .... Chinese enterprises, following market forces, will be able to move further into China´s interior to exploit an inexhaustible, inexpensive and relatively reliable labor force.” At the seventh investment and trade fair held in early April at Xi´an, capital of the western Shaanxi Province, 40 of the world's top 500 companies from the United States, France, Germany and Japan attended. Contracts for over $400 million were signed.

While economic stagnation afflicts much of the world, Chinese industrial output has maintained strong growth for 14 months in a row, and in the first two months of this year, the industrial added value increased 17.5 per cent over the same period last year, a record high since 1996.

In contrast, the Federal Reserve reported April 15 that total output from U.S. manufacturers fell again in February and March, continuing three years of decline. The current downturn - despite increased demand growth - is similar to the disastrous period from 1979-1982 that was the worst since the 1930s. American demand is being met increasingly by imported manufactures.

China's foreign trade displayed strong growth in the first quarter, as the export of machinery and electronics products, which account for half of China's total exports, increased 42.1 per cent in the first two months, 20 percentage points higher than the same period last year. The export of new and high-tech products increased 51.8 per cent.

For the United States, the Commerce Department reported on April 16 that for 2002, the U.S. current-account deficit increased by $110.0 billion, to $503.4 billion total, mostly due to adverse trends in trade. Exports of goods were down $36.3 billion in 2002 compared to 2001, while total imports were up $51 billion. There is no way to spin such bad news on both sides of the trade ledger.

Washington´s obsession with trade in the 1990s has failed to advance the nation´s position in the world system, and there is not a single set of trade negotiations now in progress that can reasonably offer any change in current trends. Policy must now shift to the domestic economy by redirecting the efforts of America firms from developing rival industries overseas to reviving capabilities at home. It will take direct presidential leadership on a par with what has been shown in other areas foreign policy to accomplish this goal, but it must be done if the United States is to hold its lead as the world´s most powerful nation.

William R. Hawkins is Senior Fellow for National Security Studies at the U.S. Business and Industry Council.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: china; chinastuff; freetrade; globalism; leftwingactivists; thebusheconomy
 U.S. Trade with China 
(billion dollars)

Year

1991

1992

1993

1994

1995

1996

1997

1998

1999

2000

2001

2002

U.S. Imports

19.0

25.7

31.5

38.8

45.5

51.5

62.6

71.2

81.8

100.1

102.3

125.1

U.S. Exports

6.3

7.4

8.8

9.3

11.7

12.0

12.9

14.2

13.1

16.3

19.2

22.0

Trade Deficit

12.7

18.3

22.7

29.5

33.8

39.5

49.7

56.9

68.7

83.8

83.1

103.1

Fundamentally, we believe that the U.S. government needs to devote more resources and put in place new programs to build wider expertise about China and to protect our industrial base from eroding as a result of our economic relations with China.

-- C. Richard D’Amato, chairman
U.S.-China Security Review Commission
(How to improve U.S.-China relations )


1 posted on 04/19/2003 11:48:33 AM PDT by Willie Green
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To: Willie Green
Both dems and pubs say if we just keep pumping in money, one day China will be just like us and will not be interested in war.
2 posted on 04/19/2003 11:50:36 AM PDT by cynicom
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To: cynicom; HighRoadToChina

Follies: GE - We Bring Deflation to Life
Alan Tonelson
Monday, April 14, 2003

“The most successful China strategy is to capitalize on its market growth while exporting its deflationary power.”
– Jeffrey R. Immelt, Chairman and CEO, General Electric

(Source: “Letter to Stakeholders,” by Jeffrey R. Immelt, Only GE: General Electric Annual Report 2002 (Fairfield, Conn.: General Electric Co.), 2003, p. 13)


3 posted on 04/19/2003 11:56:25 AM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: *China stuff; *"Free" Trade
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
4 posted on 04/19/2003 12:02:39 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: cynicom
Both dems and pubs say if we just keep pumping in money, one day China will be just like us and will not be interested in war.Hope they're right. Although close economic ties hasn't made much of a friend of France.

Meanwhile I feel vaguely uncomfortable when I buy something "Made in China."

5 posted on 04/19/2003 12:06:42 PM PDT by Calpublican
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To: Willie Green
One small thing we could do here at home is to buy from American manufacturers, before they are all gone. It will help and expand capacity to meet increased demand.
6 posted on 04/19/2003 12:08:01 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: Willie Green
The billboards in the subways of China are not covered with ads for Pepsi or movies but rather with ads for the latest mills and lathes. Means of production not consumer items are what these ads emphasize. The train platforms are covered with books for sale. The most popular topics are business books usually translation of American books on how to succeed in business.

The last time I took the train from Shanghai to Beijing 4 people attempted to start a business with me.

The first question out of an urban Chinese mouth is often, How much do you make? Sometimes followed by, "I can top it, come start a business with me."

The jackhammers and arc welders run 24/7 in Beijing and Shagnhai. The city is lit up by the ceaseless construction. Street signs measure the level of background noise and provide a readout in decibels.

7 posted on 04/19/2003 12:22:35 PM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear....)
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To: TheLion
Doesn't matter...Industry isn't moving to China to stay in business...It's moving to increase profits a hundredfold or two...
8 posted on 04/19/2003 12:26:43 PM PDT by Iscool
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Kurdistani
Don't forget that this china trade defecit enormously increases profitability of american companies.

Transnational companies, not American companies.

"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains."

--Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119


10 posted on 04/19/2003 12:55:34 PM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Calpublican
"Meanwhile I feel vaguely uncomfortable when I buy something 'Made in China.' "

That would be just about anytime you buy anything these days...
11 posted on 04/19/2003 1:05:22 PM PDT by optik_b
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To: AdamSelene235
What is interesting is that China the former communist nation actually has a rawer form of Capitalism than we do. What is the tas rate in china compared to the USA?
12 posted on 04/19/2003 1:08:15 PM PDT by optik_b
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To: Calpublican
Almost impossible not to...
13 posted on 04/19/2003 1:16:24 PM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: optik_b
What is the tas rate in china compared to the USA?

Fiscal burden of government in China is 17.8% of the GDP.

The United States has a fiscal burden of government that is 30.4% of the GDP.

Government in the United States is growing 12X faster than the private sector. At the current rate, the US Federal Government will double in size by 2015.

14 posted on 04/19/2003 1:20:39 PM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear....)
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To: optik_b
What is interesting is that China the former communist nation actually has a rawer form of Capitalism than we do.

Neither country has anything that vaguely resembles free market capitalism. We are both corporatist (a nice name for fascism i.e. privately held capital with government manipulation of markets and socialization of risk).

The welfare-state mentality is far stronger in America than in China. The average Chinese is enterprising and has a can-do attitude.

15 posted on 04/19/2003 1:28:51 PM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear....)
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To: Willie Green
REPEAL NAFTA - GATT
16 posted on 04/19/2003 1:35:18 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: Willie Green; cynicom; HighRoadToChina; *China stuff; *"Free" Trade; Calpublican; TheLion; ...
I live in Asia around 11 months of the year and have spent almost half of the past 40 years here. In that time I have never been in a country in which and about which more lies are told [Particularly by CNN-like American "business consultants"] than China -- and/or in which lying and looting and stealing and counterfeiting and corruption is so much an everyday to day part of living.

And nor have I ever come across a more accurate synopsis of the real "china prospects" than those so plainly stated by John Derbyshire in his reviews here and elsewhere of the works of other "old 'china' hands," Joe Studwell and Gordon Chang -- who also know the real "china."

To believe the much-vaunted Peking-based pack of invading, colonizing, enslaving, mass-murdering, [More than one hundred million -- and counting!] lying, looting, thieving gangster bastards that so grandiosely self-styles itself, "china" -- snatchers of power from other despotic dictatorships that, in "5000 years of history" haven't yet managed to invent so much as a form of government worthy of the name -- is to amount to anything more than, say, the Soviet Union, is to believe in fairies.

Dictatorships exist only to keep themselves in power and will eat their own young to hang on to it -- and Peking's gangster/tyrant "politicians" are no exception to that rule.

Book Review by John Derbyshire

The Washington Times - April 14 2002

Dream On

The China Dream - By Joe Studwell

Atlantic Monthly Press - 360 pp. $27.00

The dream of Joe Studwell's title is the dream of the China market: of 1.3 billion consumers just waiting to be sold clothes, medicine, cars, toothpaste, or whatever else the dreamer has to offer. As an English writer of the 1840s put it: "If we could only persuade every person in China to lengthen his shirttail by a foot, we could keep the mills of Lancashire working round the clock." The dream has been dreamed by many westerners across many centuries. For a very few - the opium merchants of the 19th century, the fast-food franchisers of our own time - it has actually come true. Much, much more often, it has proved to be only a dream, the waking from which has sometimes been abrupt and unpleasant.

In recent years there have been three cycles of dreaming and waking for foreign businessmen eager to tap into the China market. The first cycle began in the early 1980s, after a 50-year period when dreaming about China was out of fashion altogether. With the ascendancy of Deng Xiaoping's faction following Mao's death, it became clear that the fantasy economics of the Mao period had definitely been abandoned. So far as industry was concerned, they had mostly been abandoned in favor of the kind of incentivized state socialism attempted in Eastern Europe twenty years before. This was not much noticed, however. What was noticed was Deng's maxim "to get rich is glorious," and the revitalization of Chinese agriculture that followed the retreat from collective farming, and the surge in disposable incomes among urban Chinese from a Mao-era base very close to zero. Western businessmen, dreaming the dream, poured in to set up "joint ventures" with Chinese partners.

The massacres of June 1989 are a convenient punctuation mark for the end of this first dream cycle. Many businessmen had already woken even before that, though; the book Beijing Jeep, published earlier that same year, told the dismal story of a typical "joint venture" fiasco.

The atmosphere of widespread state terror that followed the massacres offered a splendid opportunity for the Chinese government to administer some unpleasant medicine to an overheated economy. When this had been done to the leadership's satisfaction, Deng started the second cycle of dreaming with his famous "southern tour" of early 1992, in which he urged his countrymen to go for maximum economic growth. Following the massacres it was clear that the Communist Party had no intention of going away; but it seemed, from Deng's 1992 speeches, that it might be willing to leave the economy alone. This all happened just as the rising fad for "globalization" was seizing the attention of western business people. Once again, the dream took flight.

The actual experience of western business in China during the 1990s was closely watched by Joe Studwell, a writer on business and economics - he is founder and editor-in-chief of the excellent China Economic Quarterly - who lived in China for the entire decade. He saw the 1990s flood of dreamers arrive, bright-eyed and eager to engage this new, busy China. He watched the bright eyes glaze over as the reality of China gradually revealed itself to them. Signed agreements and "memoranda of understanding" turned out to be worthless; court rulings were not enforced; state-owned enterprises were exempt from costly environmental regulations; expensive licenses, processed by lackadaisical bureaucrats, were required at every turn; counterfeiting and abuse of intellectual property rights were rampant; the early-1990s purchasing-power models for the disposable income of the Chinese turned out to be too optimistic; ad hoc technical standards were used to impede trade; local management personnel were scarce, and of poor quality. As difficulties multiplied, the dream faded.

Then, in December last year, China's accession to the World Trade Organization became official. As this author points out: The government committed to the WTO from a position of weakness, not strength, because of quiet desperation, not unified political resolve. It reached for an outside force to do a job it was failing to do itself - the deregulation and de-bureaucratization of China's economy.

WTO accession arrived just as serious disillusion was setting in among foreign investors in China. There are signs that it has initiated a third cycle of dreaming. Certainly the Chinese government hopes this is so. Knowing that they cannot solve their country's economic problems without making political reforms they are unwilling to contemplate, China's communists hope that the standards implicit in WTO membership, and the compulsory procedures for resolving disputes between members, will, all by themselves, force China's domestic economy to shape up.

Joe Studwell shows convincingly why this is unlikely to happen.

The China Dream will inevitably be compared with last fall's book on the same topic, Gordon Chang's The Coming Collapse of China. [Which I reviewed in these pages 8/12/01]

Studwell's book is lighter on cultural insights than Chang's, but better organized and richer in hard economic facts. He notes, and abundantly documents, such large and intractable truths as the following:

For all the talk of reform, of retreat from socialism, of the unleashing of the energies of the Chinese people, and so on, government payrolls increased all through the 1980s and 1990s.

From being debt-free in 1979, China is now saddled with liabilities that will soon make it the world's most indebted nation.

"Given the state's determination to micromanage economic activity, there [is] almost no strictly legal way for foreign investors to make money."

Studwell offers two possibilities for China's near future: a long period of stagnation and low growth like the one Japan has been enduring, or a major fiscal crisis, with runs on the banks followed by Latin-American levels of instability and social disorder. He notes that neither scenario offers a very exact analogy to China: a stagnant debt-crushed economy with a per capita GNP of $25K per annum is not the same thing as one with $300.00 per annum, and Argentina has never had either Chinese levels of social and political control or modern China's imperial responsibilities and hegemonic ambitions.

The author's advice to foreign investors is to use the country as a manufacturing base for exports [If you can squeeze in among all the overseas-Chinese doing exactly that] -- but to engage in the domestic market only with utmost caution. It sounds right to me, though given the violence of regime change in China, and the xenophobic outbursts that traditionally accompany such change, I would add one more thing:

Keep a suitcase packed and ready under your bed at all times.

17 posted on 04/19/2003 1:40:37 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: Willie Green
Statement: "China Surges Economically While America Falters"

Response: Why shouldn't Amercans make $0.15/day?(With Bread costing $5.00/pound)I mean after all it's efficiency!

18 posted on 04/19/2003 1:40:47 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: Kurdistani
<< Our trade defecit with Saudi Arabia however, does not... that is just pure dependency. >>

We give the Saudis worthless paper in exchange for valuable oil and they then bring the paper back to the one place on Earth where it has any value and give it back to US and buy our real estate which also stays here?

And WE are dependent on THEM?

I do not think so!
19 posted on 04/19/2003 1:45:05 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: Brian Allen
Studwell offers two possibilities for China's near future: a long period of stagnation and low growth like the one Japan has been enduring, or a major fiscal crisis, with runs on the banks followed by Latin-American levels of instability and social disorder.

My bets are on the latter. Every third building seems to be a bank.

20 posted on 04/19/2003 1:49:25 PM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear....)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
Note that bread isn't $5.00 in China.
21 posted on 04/19/2003 1:49:42 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: AdamSelene235
<< My bets are on the latter. Every third building seems to be a bank. >>

Not Only But Also!

The average chicom bank carries more than 50% of non-performing loans, most of them criminally and corruptly taken out by "high-ranking" members of the ruling gang.

Right now the "china" gang is in the process of sucking Hong Kong's banks dry to prop its own failing ones -- and is thus seeing to and rapidly accelerating Hong Kong's inevitable demise.

And, aided, abetted and assisted by corrupt and/or bloody stupid American "china-specialist business consultants" and international firms of public accountants and the likes are also raising Capital in America, which Capital will all inevitably go straight down the "china" gang's failing banks' toilet!

Wanna do business in "china?"

As the man said, "Dream On!"

Best ones -- Brian
22 posted on 04/19/2003 2:10:45 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: AdamSelene235
Neither country has anything that vaguely resembles FRee Market Capitalism.

Both are Corporatist. [A "nice" name for fascism. That is, privately held Capital with government manipulation of markets and socialization of risk]

Well and truthfully said.

Despite that more than seven decades of the new-fascism ... um ... deal's assault on America's Constitution and Founding Law has battered the very Heck out of it, however, we have a better chance, in Rule of Law, of ever having something better than the awful Peking-based rule-by-law gangsters will ever permit their "chinese" slaves.

Unless the gang of psychopaths that calls itself "china" can invent a form of government acceptable to and owned operated and controlled by the Chinese People, it is doomed to go the way of all such fascistic totalitarian gangs.

Last week Gorbechev, this week Saddam Hussein -- next week Hu Jintao.
23 posted on 04/19/2003 2:24:27 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: Brian Allen
As soon as Americans figure out that all their jobs are going to China, the boycott of Chinese goods will really take off. Likewise, when they figure out that liberal Democrats in government are equally responsible, said liberal Democrats in government will be hitting the unemployment lines. Hopefully America will last until that happens. Tighten your belts, Americans, or the hard working Chinese slaves will soon be running your country.
24 posted on 04/19/2003 3:08:22 PM PDT by whipitgood (There is no such thing as quiet patriotism.)
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To: AdamSelene235
And of all tall construction cranes ised in the world today 40% are in Beijing and Shagnhai.
25 posted on 04/19/2003 4:24:57 PM PDT by TopQuark
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To: AdamSelene235
ALl the while we, Americans, focus on... prices at the mall and infantile preoccupation with sex.

When a married ---- excuse me for being so outdated --- living together couple of young adults wants to buy a house, they want a house of their parent, not the house from which their parents has started. An average house built today is 40% bigger than that at in 1950 --- and yet our papers are full of complaints that "fewer people can afford housing."

Our literacy declines but we want the same salary. And then we complain when the corporations prefer the Chinese labor to ours.

26 posted on 04/19/2003 4:30:46 PM PDT by TopQuark
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To: Doctor Stochastic
The American taxpayer is subsidizing the price of bread(or the equivalent)in China.
27 posted on 04/19/2003 4:32:13 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: AdamSelene235
Fiscal burden of government in China is 17.8% of the GDP.

Your numbers are wrong. Very wrong.

If you compare apples and oranges is one thing. To compare apples to apples is another.

Apples to apples, China's burden on its population is around 70%.

28 posted on 04/19/2003 4:41:34 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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To: cynicom
Both dems and pubs say if we just keep pumping in money, one day China will be just like us and will not be interested in war.

Seems we will immitate them one day rather than vice versa.

29 posted on 04/19/2003 5:10:02 PM PDT by Concentrate
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To: TopQuark
IMHO, trade with China should be outlawed, as it is with Cuba. I have never bought the idea that trade, much less giving them "Most Favored Nation" status would transform China into a free country.

All it does is make them powerful totalitarian states instead of weak ones.

30 posted on 04/19/2003 5:20:35 PM PDT by Concentrate
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To: AdamSelene235
On the other hand the bulk of Chinese communist industry is controlled by State Owned Industries and ultimately party figures. As a result their accounting and productivity figures would make those of Enron look truthful. Folks, what they won't tell you is this is another giant bubble.
31 posted on 04/19/2003 9:38:12 PM PDT by AmericanVictory
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To: Willie Green
CEO's keep moving companies to China to pump up stocks. Now we all lost!!!
32 posted on 04/19/2003 9:43:34 PM PDT by Brimack34 (Liberal's want to keep kids in prison!!)
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To: TopQuark; AdamSelene235
<< And of all tall construction cranes ised in the world today 40% are in Peking and Shanghai. >>

And around half of that 40% are broken down for total lack of preventative maintenance! They are not even regularly greased and lubricated!
33 posted on 04/19/2003 11:01:12 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: Brian Allen
That's not what I hear, Brian. It's not our grandfather's China any more.
34 posted on 04/20/2003 8:07:17 AM PDT by TopQuark
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To: TopQuark
<< That's not what I hear, Brian. It's not our grandfather's China any more. >>

No.

It's mine.

I live in Asia, have three homes here -- and have been based in Asia for most of the past 40 years.

Half of my family is of Chinese ethnicity.

I speak from what I live every day.

Best ones -- Brian
35 posted on 04/20/2003 1:43:13 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: Brian Allen
Thank you Brian. You are clearly a more credible source than the ones I quoted. Thanks for the correction: it'll prevent me in the future from repeating what appears to be inaccurate or even a falsehood.
36 posted on 04/20/2003 7:30:46 PM PDT by TopQuark
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To: Willie Green
'China Surges Economically While America Falters'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And then came SARS....
37 posted on 04/20/2003 7:34:21 PM PDT by Route66 (America's Mainstreet)
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To: Brian Allen
We became rich because we were free. I'm not sure the converse works. I'll even argue that as people become more wealthy the less likely they'll be to dispute any political system. They'll have too much to lose. I can't think of an oppressed society that became free after it became rich, w/o a blood revolution. We'll all be very sorry one day for all the 'Made in China' crap we buy now. We'll get it back in the form of an ICBM or much worse. China will have several hundred million excess men if they keep aborting the girls. The PTB's will have to do *something* with those men to keep them from starting trouble at home. Use your imagination.
38 posted on 04/20/2003 7:39:08 PM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Black Agnes
<< We became rich because we were free. I'm not sure the converse works. >>

And we are FRee because we are created in the image of God -- and aspire to be like Him.

Without the Foundation of Judeo-Christian Law upon which Our Nation is Founded and upon which it Stands, there is no real wealth. The converse does not work.

Hong Kong was real for a while.

Until 2359 Hrs on June 30 1997 that is.

But in all of the rest of Asia and around the world? Why even poor failed Japan was only ever a Xerox copy of America. And poor failing Singapore is but a [Made-in-"china"] Canon copy of that Xerox.
39 posted on 04/20/2003 8:17:20 PM PDT by Brian Allen (I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny ....)
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To: maui_hawaii
Your numbers are wrong. Very wrong.

The numbers are from the Heritage foundation.

Our numbers are fake as well. If you take into account layered taxation, Social "Security", etc. our fiscal burden is well over 50%.

40 posted on 04/21/2003 8:35:56 AM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear....)
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To: AdamSelene235
The Heritage Foundation is wrong. Its really a moot point I think, to try and compare anyhow. The comparison methods aren't even close to the right ballpark anyhow.
41 posted on 04/21/2003 4:37:54 PM PDT by maui_hawaii
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