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Anything into Oil(solution to dependence on foregn oil?)
DISCOVER Vol. 24 No. 5 ^ | May 2003 | Brad Lemley

Posted on 04/21/2003 5:57:41 AM PDT by honway

In an industrial park in Philadelphia sits a new machine that can change almost anything into oil.

Really.

"This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind," says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World Technologies, the company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first industrial-size installation in Missouri. "This process can deal with the world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can slow down global warming."

Pardon me, says a reporter, shivering in the frigid dawn, but that sounds too good to be true. "Everybody says that," says Appel. He is a tall, affable entrepreneur who has assembled a team of scientists, former government leaders, and deep-pocketed investors to develop and sell what he calls the thermal depolymerization process, or TDP. The process is designed to handle almost any waste product imaginable, including turkey offal, tires, plastic bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks, paper-pulp effluent, infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even biological weapons such as anthrax spores. According to Appel, waste goes in one end and comes out the other as three products, all valuable and environmentally benign: high-quality oil, clean-burning gas, and purified minerals that can be used as fuels, fertilizers, or specialty chemicals for manufacturing.

Unlike other solid-to-liquid-fuel processes such as cornstarch into ethanol, this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime feedstock. "There is no reason why we can't turn sewage, including human excrement, into a glorious oil," says engineer Terry Adams, a project consultant. So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World Technologies to begin doing exactly that.

"The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world."

"This is not an incremental change. This is a big, new step," agrees Alf Andreassen, a venture capitalist with the Paladin Capital Group and a former Bell Laboratories director. The offal-derived oil, is chemically almost identical to a number two fuel oil used to heat homes.

Andreassen and others anticipate that a large chunk of the world's agricultural, industrial, and municipal waste may someday go into thermal depolymerization machines scattered all over the globe. If the process works as well as its creators claim, not only would most toxic waste problems become history, so would imported oil. Just converting all the U.S. agricultural waste into oil and gas would yield the energy equivalent of 4 billion barrels of oil annually. In 2001 the United States imported 4.2 billion barrels of oil. Referring to U.S. dependence on oil from the volatile Middle East, R. James Woolsey, former CIA director and an adviser to Changing World Technologies, says, "This technology offers a beginning of a way away from this."

But first things first. Today, here at the plant at Philadelphia's Naval Business Center, the experimental feedstock is turkey processing-plant waste: feathers, bones, skin, blood, fat, guts. A forklift dumps 1,400 pounds of the nasty stuff into the machine's first stage, a 350-horsepower grinder that masticates it into gray brown slurry. From there it flows into a series of tanks and pipes, which hum and hiss as they heat, digest, and break down the mixture. Two hours later, a white-jacketed technician turns a spigot. Out pours a honey-colored fluid, steaming a bit in the cold warehouse as it fills a glass beaker.

It really is a lovely oil. "The longest carbon chains are C-18 or so," says Appel, admiring the liquid. "That's a very light oil. It is essentially the same as a mix of half fuel oil, half gasoline."

Private investors, who have chipped in $40 million to develop the process, aren't the only ones who are impressed. The federal government has granted more than $12 million to push the work along. "We will be able to make oil for $8 to $12 a barrel," says Paul Baskis, the inventor of the process. "We are going to be able to switch to a carbohydrate economy."

Making oil and gas from hydrocarbon-based waste is a trick that Earth mastered long ago. Most crude oil comes from one-celled plants and animals that die, settle to ocean floors, decompose, and are mashed by sliding tectonic plates, a process geologists call subduction. Under pressure and heat, the dead creatures' long chains of hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon-bearing molecules, known as polymers, decompose into short-chain petroleum hydrocarbons. However, Earth takes its own sweet time doing this—generally thousands or millions of years—because subterranean heat and pressure changes are chaotic. Thermal depolymerization machines turbocharge the process by precisely raising heat and pressure to levels that break the feedstock's long molecular bonds.

Many scientists have tried to convert organic solids to liquid fuel using waste products before, but their efforts have been notoriously inefficient. "The problem with most of these methods was that they tried to do the transformation in one step—superheat the material to drive off the water and simultaneously break down the molecules," says Appel. That leads to profligate energy use and makes it possible for hazardous substances to pollute the finished product.

Very wet waste—and much of the world's waste is wet—is particularly difficult to process efficiently because driving off the water requires so much energy. Usually, the Btu content in the resulting oil or gas barely exceeds the amount needed to make the stuff.

That's the challenge that Baskis, a microbiologist and inventor who lives in Rantoul, Illinois, confronted in the late 1980s. He says he "had a flash" of insight about how to improve the basic ideas behind another inventor's waste-reforming process. "The prototype I saw produced a heavy, burned oil," recalls Baskis. "I drew up an improvement and filed the first patents." He spent the early 1990s wooing investors and, in 1996, met Appel, a former commodities trader. "I saw what this could be and took over the patents," says Appel, who formed a partnership with the Gas Technology Institute and had a demonstration plant up and running by 1999.

Thermal depolymerization, Appel says, has proved to be 85 percent energy efficient for complex feedstocks, such as turkey offal: "That means for every 100 Btus in the feedstock, we use only 15 Btus to run the process." He contends the efficiency is even better for relatively dry raw materials, such as plastics.

So how does it work? In the cold Philadelphia warehouse, Appel waves a long arm at the apparatus, which looks surprisingly low tech: a tangle of pressure vessels, pipes, valves, and heat exchangers terminating in storage tanks. It resembles the oil refineries that stretch to the horizon on either side of the New Jersey Turnpike, and in part, that's exactly what it is.

Appel strides to a silver gray pressure tank that is 20 feet long, three feet wide, heavily insulated, and wrapped with electric heating coils. He raps on its side. "The chief difference in our process is that we make water a friend rather than an enemy," he says. "The other processes all tried to drive out water. We drive it in, inside this tank, with heat and pressure. We super-hydrate the material." Thus temperatures and pressures need only be modest, because water helps to convey heat into the feedstock. "We're talking about temperatures of 500 degrees Fahrenheit and pressures of about 600 pounds for most organic material—not at all extreme or energy intensive. And the cooking times are pretty short, usually about 15 minutes."

Once the organic soup is heated and partially depolymerized in the reactor vessel, phase two begins. "We quickly drop the slurry to a lower pressure," says Appel, pointing at a branching series of pipes. The rapid depressurization releases about 90 percent of the slurry's free water. Dehydration via depressurization is far cheaper in terms of energy consumed than is heating and boiling off the water, particularly because no heat is wasted. "We send the flashed-off water back up there," Appel says, pointing to a pipe that leads to the beginning of the process, "to heat the incoming stream."

At this stage, the minerals—in turkey waste, they come mostly from bones—settle out and are shunted to storage tanks. Rich in calcium and magnesium, the dried brown powder "is a perfect balanced fertilizer," Appel says.

The remaining concentrated organic soup gushes into a second-stage reactor similar to the coke ovens used to refine oil into gasoline. "This technology is as old as the hills," says Appel, grinning broadly. The reactor heats the soup to about 900 degrees Fahrenheit to further break apart long molecular chains. Next, in vertical distillation columns, hot vapor flows up, condenses, and flows out from different levels: gases from the top of the column, light oils from the upper middle, heavier oils from the middle, water from the lower middle, and powdered carbon—used to manufacture tires, filters, and printer toners—from the bottom. "Gas is expensive to transport, so we use it on-site in the plant to heat the process," Appel says. The oil, minerals, and carbon are sold to the highest bidders.

Depending on the feedstock and the cooking and coking times, the process can be tweaked to make other specialty chemicals that may be even more profitable than oil. Turkey offal, for example, can be used to produce fatty acids for soap, tires, paints, and lubricants. Polyvinyl chloride, or PVC—the stuff of house siding, wallpapers, and plastic pipes—yields hydrochloric acid, a relatively benign and industrially valuable chemical used to make cleaners and solvents. "That's what's so great about making water a friend," says Appel. "The hydrogen in water combines with the chlorine in PVC to make it safe. If you burn PVC [in a municipal-waste incinerator], you get dioxin—very toxic."

Brian Appel, CEO of Changing World Technologies, strolls through a thermal depolymerization plant in Philadelphia. Experiments at the pilot facility revealed that the process is scalable—plants can sprawl over acres and handle 4,000 tons of waste a day or be "small enough to go on the back of a flatbed truck" and handle just one ton daily, says Appel.

The technicians here have spent three years feeding different kinds of waste into their machinery to formulate recipes. In a little trailer next to the plant, Appel picks up a handful of one-gallon plastic bags sent by a potential customer in Japan. The first is full of ground-up appliances, each piece no larger than a pea. "Put a computer and a refrigerator into a grinder, and that's what you get," he says, shaking the bag. "It's PVC, wood, fiberglass, metal, just a mess of different things. This process handles mixed waste beautifully." Next to the ground-up appliances is a plastic bucket of municipal sewage. Appel pops the lid and instantly regrets it. "Whew," he says. "That is nasty."

Experimentation revealed that different waste streams require different cooking and coking times and yield different finished products. "It's a two-step process, and you do more in step one or step two depending on what you are processing," Terry Adams says. "With the turkey guts, you do the lion's share in the first stage. With mixed plastics, most of the breakdown happens in the second stage." The oil-to-mineral ratios vary too. Plastic bottles, for example, yield copious amounts of oil, while tires yield more minerals and other solids. So far, says Adams, "nothing hazardous comes out from any feedstock we try."

"The only thing this process can't handle is nuclear waste," Appel says. "If it contains carbon, we can do it."

This Philadelphia pilot plant can handle only seven tons of waste a day, but 1,054 miles to the west, in Carthage, Missouri, about 100 yards from one of ConAgra Foods' massive Butterball Turkey plants, sits the company's first commercial-scale thermal depolymerization plant. The $20 million facility, scheduled to go online any day, is expected to digest more than 200 tons of turkey-processing waste every 24 hours.

The north side of Carthage smells like Thanksgiving all the time. At the Butterball plant, workers slaughter, pluck, parcook, and package 30,000 turkeys each workday, filling the air with the distinctive tang of boiling bird. A factory tour reveals the grisly realities of large-scale poultry processing. Inside, an endless chain of hanging carcasses clanks past knife-wielding laborers who slash away. Outside, a tanker truck idles, full to the top with fresh turkey blood. For many years, ConAgra Foods has trucked the plant's waste—feathers, organs, and other nonusable parts—to a rendering facility where it was ground and dried to make animal feed, fertilizer, and other chemical products. But bovine spongiform encephalopathy, also known as mad cow disease, can spread among cattle from recycled feed, and although no similar disease has been found in poultry, regulators are becoming skittish about feeding animals to animals.

In Europe the practice is illegal for all livestock. Since 1997, the United States has prohibited the feeding of most recycled animal waste to cattle. Ultimately, the specter of European-style mad-cow regulations may kick-start the acceptance of thermal depolymerization. "In Europe, there are mountains of bones piling up," says Alf Andreassen. "When recycling waste into feed stops in this country, it will change everything."

Because depolymerization takes apart materials at the molecular level, Appel says, it is "the perfect process for destroying pathogens." On a wet afternoon in Carthage, he smiles at the new plant—an artless assemblage of gray and dun-colored buildings—as if it were his favorite child.

"This plant will make 10 tons of gas per day, which will go back into the system to make heat to power the system," he says. "It will make 21,000 gallons of water, which will be clean enough to discharge into a municipal sewage system. Pathological vectors will be completely gone. It will make 11 tons of minerals and 600 barrels of oil, high-quality stuff, the same specs as a number two heating oil." He shakes his head almost as if he can't believe it. "It's amazing.

The Environmental Protection Agency doesn't even consider us waste handlers. We are actually manufacturers—that's what our permit says. This process changes the whole industrial equation. Waste goes from a cost to a profit."

He watches as burly men in coveralls weld and grind the complex loops of piping. A group of 15 investors and corporate advisers, including Howard Buffett, son of billionaire investor Warren Buffett, stroll among the sparks and hissing torches, listening to a tour led by plant manager Don Sanders. A veteran of the refinery business, Sanders emphasizes that once the pressurized water is flashed off, "the process is similar to oil refining. The equipment, the procedures, the safety factors, the maintenance—it's all proven technology."

And it will be profitable, promises Appel. "We've done so much testing in Philadelphia, we already know the costs," he says. "This is our first-out plant, and we estimate we'll make oil at $15 a barrel. In three to five years, we'll drop that to $10, the same as a medium-size oil exploration and production company. And it will get cheaper from there."

"We've got a lot of confidence in this," Buffett says. "I represent ConAgra's investment. We wouldn't be doing this if we didn't anticipate success." Buffett isn't alone. Appel has lined up federal grant money to help build demonstration plants to process chicken offal and manure in Alabama and crop residuals and grease in Nevada. Also in the works are plants to process turkey waste and manure in Colorado and pork and cheese waste in Italy. He says the first generation of depolymerization centers will be up and running in 2005. By then it should be clear whether the technology is as miraculous as its backers claim.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abiogenic; anwr; co2; electrolysis; energy; energylist; oil; thomasgold
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: zeugma
The thing the surprises me most is the near complete silence on this subject in the mainstream media.

Do you recall how the media covered Ginger, which was a scooter?

Unless this mult-million dollar venture is a complete fraud, and I am with Howard Buffett betting it is not,this may be one of the most important news stories of the year. Yet, there is little coverage in the media.

51 posted on 04/21/2003 8:21:52 AM PDT by honway
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To: *Energy_List
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
52 posted on 04/21/2003 8:21:58 AM PDT by Free the USA (Stooge for the Rich)
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Hmmm... My organic isn't that good, but this sounds interesting...
53 posted on 04/21/2003 8:24:54 AM PDT by Chemist_Geek ("Drill, R&D, and conserve" should be our watchwords! Energy independence for America!)
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To: Chemist_Geek
Nice tagline for this thread.
54 posted on 04/21/2003 8:33:46 AM PDT by m1911
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To: honway
Bump.

The next big thing. Please flag me to any new reports on this process and the tests of the Missouri plant.

I'd buy stock now if it was public. But the Buffets and their buddies have a lock on it, I would guess.
55 posted on 04/21/2003 8:42:33 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
Yeah, the Buffets have been moving out of the market to private companies.
56 posted on 04/21/2003 9:27:44 AM PDT by m1911
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To: honway
"Thermal depolymerization, Appel says, has proved to be 85 percent energy efficient for complex feedstocks, such as turkey offal: "That means for every 100 Btus in the feedstock, we use only 15 Btus to run the process." He contends the efficiency is even better for relatively dry raw materials, such as plastics."

So long as the efficiency is < 100% (which it must be) you cannot get 'something for nothing'. That 15% simply means you are putting in 100 Btus and getting 85 back as fuel.

57 posted on 04/21/2003 9:50:53 AM PDT by boris (Education is always painful; pain is always educational)
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To: m1911
google search for "thermal depolymerization" lists 243 links, some already posted on this thread

[I couldn't get the google search link to work here]
58 posted on 04/21/2003 9:56:12 AM PDT by citizen (Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!)
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To: CollegeRepublican
I was thinking the same thing.

Question now is: how many molecules make up a single prion, and if a prion is more than one molecule, can broken-up "individualized" prion molecules act as mini-infectious particles/agents?

59 posted on 04/21/2003 9:57:35 AM PDT by IWONDR
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To: honway
Seems to have President Bush fooled too. Not!


Dubya: A new generation of technology has been developed by Changing World Technologies which can solve the nation's energy crisis and turn waste materials into valuable and marketable fuel alternatives. These processes also solve the nation's waste disposal problems by eliminating all residuals. The time has come to utilize waste materials as resources and the technology has advanced to make such a transformation achievable.

60 posted on 04/21/2003 10:01:53 AM PDT by Tunehead54 (Support Our Troops!)
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To: m1911
The company has also obtained multiple DOE grants. The DOE folks are a notoriously skeptical group so this is a significant endorsement of the workability of the company's technology.
61 posted on 04/21/2003 10:10:27 AM PDT by ggekko
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To: Tunehead54
where is that Pres. Bush qoute from?
62 posted on 04/21/2003 10:20:44 AM PDT by citizen (Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!)
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To: boris
Some feedstock contains 100 BTUs worth of energy locked into organic molecules in the form of waste. It takes 15 BTUs worth of energy to process that 100 BTUs out of the feedstock into 100 BTUs worth of oil, gas, etc. In other words, waste + 15 BTUs = 100 BTUs of energy. The "something for nothing" is the energy locked in the waste. It is like using 15 BTUs of energy to pump 100 BTUs of oil out of the ground and refine it into 100 BTUs of oil, gas, etc. You aren't making energy. You are converting it into a usable form. If, of course, this works as advertised.
63 posted on 04/21/2003 10:21:30 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: honway
IMO, you never see anything really important in the major media. They are too busy printing any words of wisdom that come out of Sean Penn's mouth.

The biggest question I have about the output of the tech mentioned in the article concerns the non-oil related stuff. I'd be interested in knowing if they are able to separate out the heavy metals and such. Otherwise, they'll have a hard time disposing of anything they can't actually use. Now, if they can process that stuff down to the point where you end up with neat little piles of FE, AL, SI and such, then I'd have to say that this is the biggest news of this young century.

64 posted on 04/21/2003 10:23:29 AM PDT by zeugma (If you use microsoft products, you are feeding the beast.)
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To: boris
You wrote:
That 15% simply means you are putting in 100 Btus and getting 85 back as fuel.

From the article:
That means for every 100 Btus in the feedstock, we use only 15 Btus to run the process

The process uses 15 Btus to produce 100 Btus. Keep in mind that 15 Btus comes from discarded plastic, used tires, waste from a turkey processing plant, etc.

Considering waste that would end up in landfills is being turned into energy, the process is actually better than getting something from nothing, imo.

65 posted on 04/21/2003 10:26:10 AM PDT by honway
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To: citizen
http://www.changingworldtech.com/publicprivate.htm

"America must have an energy policy that plans for the future, but meets the needs of today. I believe we can develop our natural resources and protect our environment." -President George W. Bush

66 posted on 04/21/2003 10:30:32 AM PDT by honway
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To: honway
just to keep track of this info.
67 posted on 04/21/2003 10:30:50 AM PDT by US_MilitaryRules (A penny saved is a governmental oversite!!!)
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To: George W. Bush
I would buy stock too, but would prefer to open fanchise businesses all over the country.
Create independant States and communities.
License the technology to government military bases to produce jet fuel from all the recycled paper refuse and sewage.
68 posted on 04/21/2003 10:32:48 AM PDT by Chewbacca (My life is a Dilbert cartoon.)
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To: Chewbacca
Just stay away from the garbage mashers on the detention level.
69 posted on 04/21/2003 10:55:39 AM PDT by m1911
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To: boris
Yeah, but we are talking about most of the "energy" coming from fairly useless stuff. When you look at the entire process of drilling and refining oil in the traditional sense, I'm sure its efficiency, when viewed as an entire process, isn't too great.

70 posted on 04/21/2003 10:57:46 AM PDT by Crusher138 (crush her? I don't even know her!)
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To: IWONDR
I read a book a few years ago about Mad Cow and other prion type diseases and at the time of publication it was thought that prions were simple protiens that were somehow mutated versions of normal protiens. The mutated protiens would change the normal proteins into mutated protiens in a chain reaction like process. These "bad" proteins would then die or kill areas of the brain causing a spongy area in the brain. It was stated in the book that it was hard to break down these proteins. However, I am sure that it is possible under the right pressure and heat conditions, but this process may not produce the given requirements. It is too early to know. I do like the idea and would be interested in reading more about it. :)
71 posted on 04/21/2003 10:57:53 AM PDT by CollegeRepublican
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To: honway
"It will make 11 tons of minerals and 600 barrels of oil, high-quality stuff, the same specs as a number two heating oil."

Number two oil. I'll say! That's offal clever.
72 posted on 04/21/2003 11:05:00 AM PDT by manic4organic
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To: Crusher138
"Yeah, but we are talking about most of the "energy" coming from fairly useless stuff. When you look at the entire process of drilling and refining oil in the traditional sense, I'm sure its efficiency, when viewed as an entire process, isn't too great."

If it were not then nobody would drill and refine oil. The reason oil drilling pays off is that the 'battery' was charged over millions of years by photosynthesis from the Sun. Oil is condensed solar energy, which is 'free' because we are obtaining it for far less energy than one can release by burning it.

73 posted on 04/21/2003 11:07:17 AM PDT by boris (Education is always painful; pain is always educational)
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To: honway
"The process uses 15 Btus to produce 100 Btus."

With math like that I am not surprised this approach appeals to you. My original statement is correct: 100 BTUs in (feedstock); 85 BTUs out (useful energy).

Period.

--Boris

74 posted on 04/21/2003 11:08:30 AM PDT by boris (Education is always painful; pain is always educational)
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To: honway
"That means for every 100 Btus in the feedstock, we use only 15 Btus to run the process."

If that is true and this process is all that it is cracked up to be, then the Saudis will be sucking hind teat before long.

75 posted on 04/21/2003 11:17:16 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts ()
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To: honway
Just converting all the U.S. agricultural waste into oil and gas would yield the energy equivalent of 4 billion barrels of oil annually.

A nice dream but doing it would present quite a number of logistical nightmares.

76 posted on 04/21/2003 11:22:06 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts ()
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To: m1911
you caught that line too? Call me when it is up and running.

77 posted on 04/21/2003 11:28:13 AM PDT by Mr. K (I'm formidable with that)
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To: boris
Those turkey parts (or plastic bottles, or whatever) have btus stored in them also - but not in a form that's useful. This process changes the form of the energy storage without adding any. According to the article, the energy used to recover (not create) those btus is 15% of the btus recovered.

This doesn't seem to be about mystical energy from nowhere, it's about reforming available energy into a usable form.
78 posted on 04/21/2003 11:37:33 AM PDT by m1911
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To: honway
"If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. "

Sounds like it will be of interest to the guys who took care of Jimmy Hoffa and the rest of the "family". Ain't technology grand?
79 posted on 04/21/2003 11:44:27 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: m1911
"I bet any money the environmental wackos will find something wrong with it though."

That's easy - it's still hydrocarbon fuels. It doesn't do anything about greenhouse gases. In fact, it encourages them.

Negative on that. Here's the cycle.

1. Corn plants grow by extracting carbon from atmosphere

2. Turkey's eat the corn plants

3. Turkey guts get reprocessed into oil

4. SUV burns oil, returning carbon to atmosphere

It's a closed carbon cycle. The only time carbon gets added to the atmosphere is when something is fed into the machine that was originally manufactured from drilled oil. For example, plastic made from Texas crude; but that's no worse than the situation today. All other organic sources, slaughterhouse waste, sawmill waste, agro waste and sewage reprocessing represent a closed carbon cycle and a vast improvement in the global warming scenario.

Of course you know this means a new ice age is coming since we need increased atmospheric carbon to offset the previously scheduled ice age ;)

80 posted on 04/21/2003 11:50:15 AM PDT by MalcolmS (I Engineer)
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To: MalcolmS
LOL. Good points. Somehow the Luddite faction is NOT going to dig this though. I guess instead of trying to outguess them I'll just let them come up with their own insanity.
81 posted on 04/21/2003 11:51:47 AM PDT by m1911
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To: honway
If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water.

The moral of the story: don't fall in, lest we extract your 'net worth'.

Very interesting article and a very hopeful technology BUMP.

82 posted on 04/21/2003 11:57:15 AM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: boris
The fly in the ointment is that you might need more energy than can be recovered from the fuel you make.

With math like that I am not surprised this approach appeals to you

Let me be more clear, since you seem to be having trouble with the concept here.

Garbage which would otherwise end up in a landfill goes in one end. More energy is produced in a useable form (oil and gas) than is consumed in the process. That is a good thing.

Is that simple enough for you, or would you like more help?

83 posted on 04/21/2003 11:58:29 AM PDT by honway
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To: citizen
Re Bush quote source:

Public Partnerships

I recall this as being a public - pro-energy development speech within the last 6 months.

84 posted on 04/21/2003 12:00:21 PM PDT by Tunehead54 (Support Our Troops!)
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To: honway
A definite bump.
85 posted on 04/21/2003 12:04:02 PM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: boris
With math like that I am not surprised this approach appeals to you. My original statement is correct: 100 BTUs in (feedstock); 85 BTUs out (useful energy).

The point is that it is 100 BTUs of waste material (not useful energy) being run through a process to turn it into 85 BTUs of fuel (useful energy). Given that the waste material is waste, that's like putting rocks into a blender and getting oil for the energy needed to run the blender. 15% is incredibly efficient. FYI, normal chemical-to-electrical power plants lose about half the energy during the conversion.

86 posted on 04/21/2003 12:16:17 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Anoel
This is the thread I was telling you about.
87 posted on 04/21/2003 12:19:50 PM PDT by DeSoto
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To: boris
So long as the efficiency is < 100% (which it must be) you cannot get 'something for nothing'. That 15% simply means you are putting in 100 Btus and getting 85 back as fuel.

The raw materials aren't "nothing". They are carbon-based products that could burn even without processing. The fact that they are waste products -- some very difficult to dispose of -- would make this process desirable even at lower efficiencies. Recall the controversies over incenerators. If this is cleaner than incenerators, it will be useful even if it only partly pays its way.

My one big question revolves around heavy metals. When you grind up computer monitors, what becomes of the lead in the CRTs?

88 posted on 04/21/2003 12:22:53 PM PDT by js1138
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To: MalcolmS
I wonder if the homeless tribe could be weaned away from shopping carts into harvesting kudzu. And what about leaves and yard waste? right now the lawn services in my neighborhood sweep yard waste illegally into the storm sewers.
89 posted on 04/21/2003 12:27:31 PM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
Even better - miniaturize this process and as your mower cuts the grass, it goes into the hopper and is processed back into fuel for the engine and fertilizer for the yard!

Before anyone explains economies of scale to me, I'm joking here

90 posted on 04/21/2003 12:32:40 PM PDT by m1911
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To: honway
So let's keep a running scoreboard:

ENVIRONMENTAL IMPROVEMENTS BROUGHT ABOUT BY PEOPLE LOOKING TO MAKE A BUCK vs. ENVIRONMENTAL IMPROVEMENTS BROUGHT ABOUT BY ENVIRONMENTALISTS.

The "make a buck" crowd currently has a huge lead, and may be about to pile it on.
91 posted on 04/21/2003 12:32:42 PM PDT by Our man in washington
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To: m1911
You are joking, but I am not. Even a break even process for converting organic waste into something other than landfill would be a wonder.
92 posted on 04/21/2003 12:35:39 PM PDT by js1138
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To: m1911
I realize you are joking here, but I would be interested in how small they could make this process and still have it pay off. If you could set up a reasonably small facility, it could even be solar powered, as heat is something that can be harvested rather well. Anyone who has ever sat in a car that was parked outside of the shade in texas during the summer can readily attest to this :-)

I think it would be pretty cool (so to speak) to be able to feed a (relatively) biomass of some kind (leaves, lawn clippings etc) and have it, by using a solar concentrator, produce oil for you. Granted, here in texas, we don't have much use for heating oil, but I'm sure you could use it to run a generator of some kind. I'd gladly take the yard-based waste from my neighborhood and turn it into a readily salable and transportable petrolium product.

93 posted on 04/21/2003 12:51:24 PM PDT by zeugma (If you use microsoft products, you are feeding the beast.)
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To: boris
A quick google search on thermal depolymerization will turn up dozens of articles, including some on the turkey waste plant under construction. The folks building the plant are not promising a profit. They are doing it for efficient management of waste, with the hope of eventually breaking even.

In my opinion, any new technology that manages to break even in its first commercial application can probably be improved to the point of being profitble.

94 posted on 04/21/2003 1:19:52 PM PDT by js1138
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To: OKCSubmariner
http://www.forester.net/mw_news_030416_cwt.html


Changing World Technologies Debuts First Commercially Successful Thermal Process to Convert Organic Waste into Clean Energy

West Hempstead, NY, April 8, 2003 - Changing World Technologies, Inc. announces the first commercially successful application of thermal technology to convert organic waste into clean energy. Building on scientific research dating to the 1920s and human history extending from the Stone Age, CWT has patented, tested and deployed a technological process that has been awarded $12 million in grants from the US government and produced a joint venture with ConAgra Foods, Inc.

Utilizing low-value waste by-products such as tires, plastics, municipal sewage sludge, paper, animal and agricultural refuse as feedstocks, CWT's thermal technology provides a commercially viable solution for some of the earth's gravest environmental challenges, including arresting global warming by reducing the use of fossil fuels, and reforming organic waste into a high-value resource. In addition, it has the potential to substantially reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

95 posted on 04/21/2003 1:44:38 PM PDT by honway
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To: honway
If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water.

SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OUT OF PEOPLE!! IT'S PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

96 posted on 04/21/2003 1:48:49 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
"Outside, a tanker truck idles, full to the top with fresh turkey blood."

Gives a whole new meaning to "No Blood for Oil", huh?
97 posted on 04/21/2003 1:59:42 PM PDT by m1911
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To: m1911
LOL!
98 posted on 04/21/2003 2:04:55 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: PatrickHenry; VadeRetro
Figured you guys might like this one.
99 posted on 04/21/2003 2:16:57 PM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: Junior
Figured you guys might like this one.

If I could hook up one of those converters to the back end of each of my dogs, I'd have enough oil around here to light up the whole city.

100 posted on 04/21/2003 2:51:21 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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