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About Objectivism
Objectivist Center ^ | 2/2002

Posted on 04/22/2003 5:25:25 PM PDT by RJCogburn

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To: tpaine
To emancipation! Reject libertarianism-lite for the real thing! ;)


151 posted on 04/22/2003 10:26:12 PM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
Jihadic idiocy.
152 posted on 04/22/2003 10:31:15 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Cultural Jihad
China seems more fascist than communist. I understand both sides of the issue regarding engagement with their dictators.

Well there is really no such thing as communism. They are collectivists. It doesnt matter whether they are more like the soviet union or nazi germany or a mixture inbetween.

You cannot morally support a trade with the communist party of china and neither can the Objectivists from I've read.

153 posted on 04/22/2003 10:36:22 PM PDT by PuNcH
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To: tpaine
Libertarian statists fear true emancipation. :D
154 posted on 04/22/2003 10:38:54 PM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: Kevin Curry
The Soviet Union is the archetype of such a society.

The Soviet constitution was modeled on the American Constituion. You did know that, didn't you?

Hank

155 posted on 04/22/2003 10:44:34 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Cultural Jihad
Babble on.

Your inability to make a rational response has become one of FR's biggest jokes. -- Thanks, cj.

156 posted on 04/22/2003 10:46:27 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Hank Kerchief; unspun
Er, if I may get my “two cents” into your conversation with unspun… You said:

You can have it your way, but the Bible makes it clear, the most important thing to you or me, is you and me, and whatever else we should gain, if we loose ourselves, we have lost everything that matters.

I strongly disagree. The first priority, purpose and meaning of life is God – not self.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:37-40

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. – Revelation 4:11

Of particular signifance, Jesus is so completely surrendered to the Father, that we cannot tell where the one ends and the other begins:

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. – John 5:30

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt]. – Matthew 26:39

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - John 17:20-22

The self centered attitude is at the very root of all spiritual ill, from its inception:

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. – Ezekiel 28:16-17

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I [am], and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, [which] thou shalt not know. – Isaiah 47:10-11

Humility is central to Christianity:

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. – Matthew 18:4

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. – Matthew 23:12

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. – James 4:6

These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. – Proverbs 6:16-19


157 posted on 04/22/2003 10:53:22 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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Comment #158 Removed by Moderator

To: longshadow
any bets on how long it will take the Rand-haters to show up to shower her with their insults?

Those jackboots Curry and Jihad are always on the scene when a totalitarian point of view is necessary - if only as an example of how horrid it is.

159 posted on 04/22/2003 11:09:25 PM PDT by Hank Rearden (Dick Gephardt. Before he dicks you.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Of course, whakos are defined as anybody who disagrees with your point of view.
160 posted on 04/22/2003 11:22:30 PM PDT by Dat
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Comment #161 Removed by Moderator

To: tpaine
For someone whose views are declared to be dying, it sure generates a lot of interest here. I suspect most of the detractors have never even read her works, they just know that her morality is independent of any god and that's enough to put them into Jihad mode.
162 posted on 04/22/2003 11:48:02 PM PDT by Nateman (Launch every zig, for great justice!)
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To: Cultural Jihad
I dreamed I saw Ayn Rand last night,
Alive as you or me
Says I, "But Ayn, you're decades dead,"
"I never died," says she
"I never died," says she

Ayn standing there as big as life
Ayn glaring with her eyes
Ayn says, "My dupes are with you still
They love to proselytize,
They love to proselytize."

163 posted on 04/23/2003 12:56:26 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
What a SPLENDID turn/parody, for what is the quinticential UNION/Lefty " hymn. LOL

BRAVO !

164 posted on 04/23/2003 12:59:12 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: Cultural Jihad
Problem is that you want to decide what kind of society _I_ live in and you are quite willing to do it at the point of a government gun. Pardon me if I object.
165 posted on 04/23/2003 5:12:52 AM PDT by Rifleman
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To: PuNcH
If children cannot consent then it is a use of force is it not?

By that logic, sending them to school is also a use of force.

166 posted on 04/23/2003 5:15:49 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: Nateman
I suspect most of the detractors have never even read her works, they just know that her morality is independent of any god and that's enough to put them into Jihad mode.

No more callers, folks, we have a winner!

167 posted on 04/23/2003 5:23:01 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: Anamensis; Cultural Jihad
cause frankly, I'm tired of trying to figure out whether you're stupid or crazy

Well, don't make the mistake of confining yourself to just one choice...

168 posted on 04/23/2003 5:33:29 AM PDT by truenospinzone
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To: B-Chan
Yes, you've said that already -- but you failed to support your claims by either logic or evidence.

It is not he who asserts the existence of a giant all-powerful benevolent cloud-walking bearded invisible guy.

It would seem to me that not only is it impossible to prove the negative, but that the burden of proof, falls on the one making the positive assertion.

169 posted on 04/23/2003 5:42:20 AM PDT by OWK
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To: Kevin Curry
Atheists freeload on the morality and law-abidingness of theists. Always have, always will. It is what makes life tolerable.

Tell it to the Canaanites, who were mercilessly slaughtered--men, women and children--by Jehovah's merry band of followers...

170 posted on 04/23/2003 5:52:07 AM PDT by The Green Goblin
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To: The Green Goblin
Tell it to the Canaanites, who were mercilessly slaughtered--men, women and children--by Jehovah's merry band of followers...

Throats slit... (even the babies)

Cities burnt.

Property looted.

all in the name of God (and at the direct command of God, if the Bible is to be believed)

Great guys.

171 posted on 04/23/2003 5:59:04 AM PDT by OWK
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To: The Green Goblin
And let's not forget those heathen freeloaders who had the skin ripped off their backs (free of charge) by the Inquisitors in an effort to help them confess the love of Jesus.
172 posted on 04/23/2003 6:03:00 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK
Throats slit... (even the babies). Cities burnt. Property looted...all in the name of God (and at the direct command of God, if the Bible is to be believed). Great guys.

Yeah--it wouldn't do to have any Canaanites freeloading on the "morality and law-abidingness" of the theists, now would it?

173 posted on 04/23/2003 6:03:58 AM PDT by The Green Goblin
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To: OWK
And let's not forget those heathen freeloaders who had the skin ripped off their backs (free of charge) by the Inquisitors in an effort to help them confess the love of Jesus.

But OWK, don't you know that the Inquisitors were only trying to "make life tolerable"?

174 posted on 04/23/2003 6:06:40 AM PDT by The Green Goblin
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To: The Green Goblin
I'm sure they convinced themselves they were doing "God's work" as they brutalized and murdered.

And there are people who will try to rationalize it even today.

175 posted on 04/23/2003 6:07:33 AM PDT by OWK
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To: The Green Goblin
But OWK, don't you know that the Inquisitors were only trying to "make life tolerable"?

Yes, of course.

Just helping their fellow man, and stuff like that...

176 posted on 04/23/2003 6:09:45 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK
Yes, of course. Just helping their fellow man, and stuff like that...

Better living...through the rack!

177 posted on 04/23/2003 6:15:51 AM PDT by The Green Goblin
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To: The Green Goblin
Stranely enough, that's where the expression "off the rack" clothing comes from.

After a few hour session, clothes didn't fit worth a damn.
178 posted on 04/23/2003 6:21:23 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK; The Green Goblin
Hello guys - I haven't seen a Libertarian circle jerk in a while. Green Goblin, I think it is your turn to service OWK.

By all means though, ignore documented evidence of the tyrannies and 1984 societies that _all_ atheist governments have become.

179 posted on 04/23/2003 6:36:43 AM PDT by Hacksaw
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Comment #180 Removed by Moderator

To: OWK
First, God is not a "cloud-walking bearded invisible guy." The reality is much more profound than that

Science is the process of making observations of the universe and drawing conclusions based upon those observations to create a coherent model of physical reality. We know from experience (=observation) that everything that exists came to exist -- in other words, every being is necessarily a contingent being, depending upon something outside itself for its existence. This is a universally observed fact: nothing just pops into existence; every Effect is preceded by a Cause. We agree that the Universe of space and time, matter and energy exists.Therefore, the universe is a contingent being -- it came to exist; it did not just pop into existence contrary to all observed fact. Since we observe that everything that exists came to exist through the agency of another entity outside of itself, we can only conclude that the Universe came to exist through an agency outside of itself. But since the universe consists of all the space and time, matter and energy that have ever existed or ever will exist, the Cause of the Universe must necessarily exist outside of space and time and in a form other than matter and energy. In other words, whatever Cause produced the Effect we perceive as the physical Universe must necessarily be eternal, immutable, immaterial, and omnipotent. "This," as St. Thomas Aquinas observed, "All men call God."

Otr, to look at it another way:

1. In every case, we observe that a work of art is created by an artist. No work of art simply pops into existence; every instance of creativity we see is the product of an intelligent creator external to and independent of itself.

2. The physical Universe, with its laws, order, and beauty -- and the human being especially -- is a work of art.

3. Therefore, the universe -- and the human being especially -- is the product of an intelligent Creator external to and independent of itself.

Materialist skeptics who challenge us to "prove" the existence of God are, in effect, asking us to demonstrate the existence of a entity whose reality men throughout all time and place have assumed is self-evident. One might as well challenge someone to prove that "redness" exists, that freedom exists, that oneself exists, that existence itself exists.

It's really quite simple. "Everything that exists was made by something outside itself; reality exists; therefore, reality was made by Something outside itself."
181 posted on 04/23/2003 6:38:48 AM PDT by B-Chan (Anglican Use Bump!)
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To: Sebastian; Hank Kerchief; logos; Phaedrus; Alamo-Girl; unspun; cornelis; beckett; Diamond; ...
Ms. Rand was wrong. She sounded right because she advocated freedom of thought, expression and ones control over ones activities. But she was wrong because she rejected the collective (the concept that the group is more important than the individual) with objectivism (the concept that the individual is more important than the group). Neither concept is true. However, what is true is that the individual finds within the group an identity and purpose. He finds within history lessons and debts that can never be repaid. Moreover, the individual discovers that in order to be fully human one must adopt some purpose larger than himself. This is why objectivism has failed and conservatism has not.

Sebastian, I strongly agree with your analysis. The only thing I would change is the word "collective." It's a loaded word these days, one that induces knee-jerk reactions because of its "emotional charge," owing to its proper association with truly collectivist/totalist systems. Put "society" in its place, and the meaning becomes clearer.

One of the problems I have with Ayn Rand is she utterly strips the human person out of his environment -- which is, of course, society. In doing that, she makes man an abstraction. She sets up a false dichotomy between the primacy of man or the primacy of society. This is not how the world words. This is not an "either/or" situation, but a "both" situation. The trick is to find the proper balance between the rights/needs of the individual, and the rights/needs of society. John Locke was aware of this problem, but Ms. Rand seems to overlook it altogether. (E.g., under Lockean contract theory, individuals "give up" certain rights in order to participate in civil society.)

I loved what you had to say about man finding "within history lessons and debts that can never be repaid." Ms. Rand will have none of that; she absolutizes and radicalizes reason, alleging it sufficient to answer all human problems. So the human past and its experience is largely irrelevant to her. In a certain way, she "ends history" just as rigorously as Marx and Hegel do.

Lastly, I think you are so right when you say that "the individual discovers that in order to be fully human one must adopt some purpose larger than himself." Ms. Rand finds man to be an end-in-himself. Therefore, he really owes little either to society, or to God -- the latter of which of course, as an atheist, Ms. Rand regards (as do Marx and Feuerbach, et al.) as pure, irrational superstition.

Great post!

182 posted on 04/23/2003 6:49:44 AM PDT by betty boop (God bless America. God bless our troops.)
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To: Hacksaw
By all means though, ignore documented evidence of the tyrannies and 1984 societies that _all_ atheist governments have become.

I certainly don't ignore it.

Not at all.

But the thing that separates brutal tyranny from benevolence, is not theism -vs- atheism.

It is subjugation of the rights of men -vs- respect for the rights of men.

There are plenty of theistic examples of subjugation and brutalization to go along with the atheistic ones.

Pretending otherwise, is silly.

183 posted on 04/23/2003 6:52:35 AM PDT by OWK
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To: B-Chan
1. In every case, we observe that a work of art is created by an artist. No work of art simply pops into existence; every instance of creativity we see is the product of an intelligent creator external to and independent of itself.

Your argument is self-defeating.

If God exists, he is clearly the most profoundly beautiful thing, ever to exist.

And as you already clearly stated... "No work of art simply pops into existence; every instance of creativity we see is the product of an intelligent creator external to and independent of itself".

So I must ask... Who created God?

And who created God's creator?

And who created God's creator's creator?

And who created God's creator's creator's creator?

And who created God's creator's creator's creator's creator?

And who created God's creator's creator's creator's creator's creator?

I think you get the point.

184 posted on 04/23/2003 6:57:55 AM PDT by OWK
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To: betty boop
One of the problems I have with Ayn Rand is she utterly strips the human person out of his environment -- which is, of course, society.

Absolutely untrue.

(long time no see)

185 posted on 04/23/2003 6:58:50 AM PDT by OWK
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To: Cultural Jihad
the failure of anyone to adhere to the kindness of religious morality in no way diminishes its excellence in furthering life and fostering happiness.

So was the slaughter of the little children of Ai, at the hand of Joshua, by the command of God, and example of the "kindness of religious morality" you espouse?

Is that an example of it's power to "further life"?

186 posted on 04/23/2003 7:01:52 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK

Indeed. The Creator of beauty is much more beautiful than beauty itself. But God is not a 'thing.' Things have a beginning and an end. God has neither.


187 posted on 04/23/2003 7:07:21 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: OWK
The Owner of a thing has total control over the thing He creates. If you have any personal problems related to the right of property, then you'll just have to lump it, Lumpy. ;)
188 posted on 04/23/2003 7:10:27 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: Hank Kerchief

IOW If you don't agree with me you're either stupid or evil...

189 posted on 04/23/2003 7:11:43 AM PDT by conservonator
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To: OWK
Absolutely untrue.

Hi OWK! Long time no see! WRT the above, why do you say this?

190 posted on 04/23/2003 7:11:48 AM PDT by betty boop (God bless America. God bless our troops.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Placemarker.
191 posted on 04/23/2003 7:15:01 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: Anamensis
Well, you're trying to tell me about what I consider to be no more real than a schizophrenic illusion. Oh well, you live in your world, I'll live in this one, and we'll wave when we see each other, alright? Between your cryptic fairy-land remarks and CJ's psychotic tail-chasing, you've managed to make this thread fairly nonsensical. But that's not surprising; chaotic people bring chaos because they hate logical order. I'm going to just pat you on the head and go talk to someone I consider a little more rational.

I can't help what you consider, A. In actuality, you may not be able to touch my head and continue to enjoy the full use of your hand, my FRiend.

Sorry to be curt, but this is a little like hanging out with junior high kids. Interesting for a moment or two, then wearisome.

Frankly, I like to admit my immaturity, especially compared to the One who is beyond maturity.

I also prefer not to deny what I have learned by all means including objective observation and reason. I will also fight against intellecual dishonesty, censorship, and tyranny.

192 posted on 04/23/2003 7:16:06 AM PDT by unspun (It's not about you.)
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To: Cultural Jihad
The Owner of a thing has total control over the thing He creates.

So if he wants to command one of his creation (Say Joshua for example) to slit the throats of little babies (say the children of Ai for example)... then it's OK... cuz he's God.

Is that how it works?

193 posted on 04/23/2003 7:19:55 AM PDT by OWK
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To: betty boop
WRT the above, why do you say this?

I guess I'd have to ask you the same question.

You made the assertion.

194 posted on 04/23/2003 7:22:35 AM PDT by OWK
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To: RJCogburn
Objectivism is absolutely a superior philosophy and way of living - for superior people. Problem is, most people are morons. Objectivism doesn't work in practice for the same reason Libertarianism doesn't work in practice: there just aren't enough Hank Reardens to carry all the moral misfits on their coattails.
195 posted on 04/23/2003 7:24:20 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves
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To: truenospinzone
Well, don't make the mistake of confining yourself to just one choice...

LOL!

196 posted on 04/23/2003 7:25:28 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: Cultural Jihad
Things have a beginning and an end. God has neither.

But Bchan just stated emphatically that the universe is complex and beautiful (therefore necessitating a creator).

Isn't God beautiful and complex?

197 posted on 04/23/2003 7:25:30 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK
...the burden of proof falls on the one making the positive assertion.

Shhhh! We're not supposed to know that.

198 posted on 04/23/2003 7:27:27 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: OWK
And let's not forget those heathen freeloaders who had the skin ripped off their backs (free of charge) by the Inquisitors in an effort to help them confess the love of Jesus.

Free of charge? I believe their property was confiscated by the Church, wasn't it? Hey, nothin's free, bub.

199 posted on 04/23/2003 7:29:00 AM PDT by Anamensis
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To: OWK; Hacksaw
But the thing that separates brutal tyranny from benevolence, is not theism -vs- atheism. It is subjugation of the rights of men -vs- respect for the rights of men. There are plenty of theistic examples of subjugation and brutalization to go along with the atheistic ones.

(cough) Islam.

200 posted on 04/23/2003 7:39:08 AM PDT by Anamensis
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