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Free State Project activists have eye on Idaho
Spokesman-Review (via Free State Project website) ^ | April, '03 | Spokesman-Review editors

Posted on 04/24/2003 11:58:31 AM PDT by churchillbuff

COMMENTARY More activists have eye on state Our View: Libertarians' Free State Project looking around for what it hopes is fertile territory --- Don't look now, but another group of fringe political opportunists is seriously considering moving to Idaho en masse and co-opting its political machinery.

The Free State Project is smitten by Idaho and Wyoming.

Organizers view the two states as bastions for smaller government and individual liberty – and a good fit for as many as 20,000 Libertarians who are yearning to be free of Big Government. Idaho is the favorite among the "bigger" states – population around 1.2 million – being viewed as potential migration sites. Wyoming has an edge over New Hampshire among the smaller ones.

Indeed, Idaho is a live-and-let-live state that prefers smaller government. But it won't be an easy touch for an outside band of activists with ulterior motives. The Aryan Nations misjudged Idaho – and spent a quarter of a century fighting a losing battle with human-rights activists. In Idaho, Free Staters would be squeezed by anti-abortion conservatives, aggressive newspapers, the Republican establishment, and the Mormon church in the south.

They should think again about rating Idaho so high on their list.

At this point, Free State Project has signed up 3,000 activists who are willing to move to a designated state to work to transform government into their image. Once they recruit 5,000, the Free Staters will pick their state.

According to www.freestateproject.com, Idaho ranks high because, among other things, it has a strong predicted job growth. It votes for conservative and Libertarian presidential candidates. It cherishes gun freedom. It has the initiative and referendum process (for working around stubborn legislatures). It's a right-to-work state. And its teachers' union is weak.

The Free State Project, of course, is far more benign than Richard Butler's Aryan Nations. But it's making the same mistake Butler did when he launched his "territorial imperative" – a whites-only homeland in the Northwest. Butler thought the monocultural region would be fertile ground for his creed. He didn't count on the task force of human-rights activists that fought him until his dream was left in the ruins of his razed compound.

Unquestionably, the Free Staters would find some sympathizers for a political philosophy that mixes extreme fiscal conservatism with social liberalism. In Idaho, third-party candidate Ross Perot, after all, almost edged Democrat Bill Clinton for second place in the 1992 presidential election.

The Free Staters, of course, can move to Idaho or anywhere else. But they might not find a red carpet waiting for them.

• "Our View" represents the editorial voice of The Spokesman-Review. It is written by members of the editorial board.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections; US: Idaho; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: freedom; freestaters; fsp; porcupines
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Comparing a longing for a free state with "whites only" racists is offensive and way off the mark. In fact, the best thing the Libertarians could do is group together in one state and make it a small-government, low-tax haven. That would give the rest of the country an example that would shame the other states; offer a refuge to people oppressed by government in places like New York and Califonria; and get the Libertarians out of "mainstream" states where they tend to swing elections to the Democrats.
1 posted on 04/24/2003 11:58:31 AM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
As a Mormon, I support a return to constitutional government. I could live in Idaho, too.
2 posted on 04/24/2003 12:04:02 PM PDT by Nephi (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.)
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To: churchillbuff
Comparing a longing for a free state with "whites only" racists is offensive and way off the mark

That is true. But it is also true that neo-nazi groups and groups with terrorist connections have looked at the free state project with undisguised greed. I'm afraid the project is done for, unless it hires a large and ruthless bouncer.

3 posted on 04/24/2003 12:04:37 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Cachelot
-nazi groups and groups with terrorist connections have looked at the free state project with undisguised greed

You mean they've infiltrated the group, or they will head to whatever state the free-staters go to? I'm not sure what you're saying.

4 posted on 04/24/2003 12:06:24 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff
You mean they've infiltrated the group, or they will head to whatever state the free-staters go to?

The mumblings I've seen suggests they are keeping an eye on the project with a view to join up. It is a theme that surfaces when the Free State project is discussed where they congregate.

5 posted on 04/24/2003 12:12:23 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: churchillbuff
I live in Meridian Idaho. Strange how people move here and complain about our local and state governments, then try and change it to the type of local and state governments they moved away from. This is typical of Californians.

There's just a bit over 1 million people in Idaho and most are conservative and love their country.

We don't want bigots Arian nation people here.
6 posted on 04/24/2003 12:18:15 PM PDT by bedolido
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To: churchillbuff
I'm sure their motives are impeccable, but the entire idea of "we're gonna move into your area and change everything to suit ourselves" is more likely to engender a free fire zone than a free state.

Some years ago a group of Mormon transplants from Utah had the bright idea of making the rural county in southern Idaho to which they'd moved, a dry county to suit themselves. The area ranchers objected. Well, "objected" is a bit of an understatement.

It just ain't polite.

7 posted on 04/24/2003 12:30:00 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: bedolido
I live in Pocatello and we don't want these people here either. They always move in and then try to change things. They should move someplace like Antartica.
8 posted on 04/24/2003 12:34:02 PM PDT by abnegation
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To: abnegation
I live in Pocatello and we don't want these people here either. They always move in and then try to change things. They should move someplace like Antartica.

Or how about Arizona? Much nicer climate.

9 posted on 04/24/2003 12:44:43 PM PDT by BlazingArizona
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To: bedolido
How interesting.....just last night my husband and I were planning our "vacation" to Boise area for later next month.....and I've been wondering about the real politics of the State.....of course our vacation is really a scouting trip for a future home....leaving Socialist Washington behind!!! someday, we hope! Still not sure Idaho is where I want to be, however. Suggestions?
10 posted on 04/24/2003 12:57:18 PM PDT by goodnesswins (Rename the UN.....the ..........TTS..............Totalitarian Tyrants Society (with sticky fingers))
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To: goodnesswins
I would think Nevada would be high on the list for the Free Staters. No state income tax and business regulations are minimal. Why isn't that a target state?
11 posted on 04/24/2003 1:23:39 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: Nephi
I live in Idaho...we're are in a record (100 plus days) legislative session over the budget and a sales tax increase (possibly up 20% from 5% to 6%). Everyone I work with blames the 100 million tax refund we got a couple years back on the 100 million deficit we have now...morons.

Everything is down...incomes are down, travel is down, spending is down (all taxed items) so tax revenue is down. It has nothing to do with what we got back two years ago.

12 posted on 04/24/2003 2:03:22 PM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Go Fast, Turn Left!)
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To: goodnesswins
Boise and Adaho (Ada County) are going liberal fast...however, we just had a RINO mayor resign after quite a bit of controversy over spending. He actually was on the road to a recall election and resigned when misdemeanor charges of accepted the equivalent of a bribe (accepted tickets and accomodations from city's health insurance provider).

Nampa is okay, but the last mayor we had let her developer cronies (she was a realtor) develop every last bit of land in the area without alleviating traffic problems (I'm for growth, but it's damned impossible to get from one side of town to the other anymore).

Caldwell is Nampa's little sibling and growing. Both are bedroom communities to Boise. However, more and more smaller businesses are locating to these cities as costs are lower than Boise.

Most people are conservative in the outlying areas. Night life is non-existent in Nampa or Caldwell and most offerings are in Boise/Meridian area. Good racing at Meridian Speedway, Chapparal and Firebird Raceway. Idaho Steelheads (minor league hockey) are great. Got the Snake River Stampede in Nampa every year (rodeo). Lots of good people.

13 posted on 04/24/2003 2:11:47 PM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Go Fast, Turn Left!)
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To: IYAS9YAS
Boise and Adaho (Ada County) are going liberal fast...however, we just had a RINO mayor resign after quite a bit of controversy over spending. He actually was on the road to a recall election and resigned when misdemeanor charges of accepting the equivalent of a bribe (accepted tickets and accomodations from city's health insurance provider) surfaced.

Let me clean that up a bit...

14 posted on 04/24/2003 2:13:30 PM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Go Fast, Turn Left!)
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To: churchillbuff
...and an extremely corrupt government controlled by the gaming interests...
15 posted on 04/24/2003 2:16:02 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: churchillbuff
Comparing a longing for a free state with "whites only" racists is offensive and way off the mark.

Not at all.

In both cases, the activists overestimate just how well their message would be received.

Idahoans are, by and large, very conservative socially. That doesn't mesh very well with the Libertarian Party's views on things like prostitution, drugs, gambling, et cetera.

In fact, the best thing the Libertarians could do is group together in one state and make it a small-government, low-tax haven.

The one state that they'd have a prayer of doing it in is Wyoming.

16 posted on 04/24/2003 2:18:08 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: Poohbah
The one state that they'd have a prayer of doing it in is Wyoming.

I once thought so too. But it won't work there, or anywhere else in the US. The fed would never allow such a thing within its borders. Heck, it doesn't even like other countries within the western hemisphere to enact libertarian type laws. It would try subterfuge at first, and if that didn't work, crush it with outright violence.

The Civil War forever ended any independence states once had. The 9th and 10th Amendments are flagrantly ignored, to the point where higher ups in government drop their usual charade and will openly admit to it.

The is only one way to institute a libertarian state. L(l)ibertarians must purchase land from a willing seller, or claim it from the sea like the Dutch. And then they have to acquire the military might to defend it from hostile powers. I don't see anything like that ever happening.

17 posted on 04/24/2003 2:33:27 PM PDT by freeeee
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To: Poohbah
Free Staters are not neccesarily Libertarians any more than Libertarians are Free Staters. They do share some ideas though, but then, Free Staters share some ideas with Republicans too.

I think the one thing they share with each other is an interest in smaller, more responsive government. So far as I can tell, that's an idea that most Freepers can feel comfortable with too.

So, are all Freepers Libertairians? Are they Nazis? No, they're not even all conservative. Free Staters, like Freepers and Libertarians, come in all flavors, all colors and all persuasions.

18 posted on 04/24/2003 2:36:31 PM PDT by oldfart
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To: oldfart
here, here!
Homeschooling, stay-at-home, married mom procupine.
19 posted on 04/24/2003 4:40:35 PM PDT by TCEF
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To: goodnesswins
"How interesting.....just last night my husband and I were planning our "vacation" to Boise area for later next month.....and I've been wondering about the real politics of the State.....of course our vacation is really a scouting trip for a future home....leaving Socialist Washington behind!!! someday, we hope! Still not sure"

we love people to move to our state (Idaho). Even people from the beautiful state of Washington (I have many relatives in the Seattle area), but if people don't like the we run things, then they shouldn't move here. Idaho is great because of the way people think and live. the air is clean and the people are friendly. crime is low. Housing is comparatively inexpensive.

good luck on choosing where you want to live.
20 posted on 04/25/2003 7:47:28 AM PDT by bedolido
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To: Cachelot
15 years ago the trend was for the Liberals to move to Vermont and run for office and take over many levels of local government.

Well, what's wrong with free-thinking Constitutional Libertarians from doing the same thing in another area of America.

That's all we (FSP) people want. Nazi's my arse! We do have local meetings and have yet to find anyone with Nazi leanings. Our membership is based on a commitment to freedom.
21 posted on 04/28/2003 12:48:43 PM PDT by Esjay
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To: Esjay
Nazi's my arse! We do have local meetings and have yet to find anyone with Nazi leanings.

Rotfl. Been looking for them, have you? How?

Sorry. It's just that your statement is utterly meaningless, in terms of saying anything about what the status is or isn't.

22 posted on 04/28/2003 12:58:15 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Esjay
I received this shocking email yesterday on many reasons for the failure of our public schools. Be sure to click on Center for Civic Education and read it!


Have you heard of The Federal Curriculum and/or any of these Federal laws--

Goals 2000: Educate America Act;
School-to-Work Opportunities Act;
and the appropriations bill (HR6).

Have you heard of the Center for Civic Education -- www.civiced.org/, an organization that I think is as powerful and as bad or worse than the Nature Conservancy? They wrote the standards, for implementation of the above laws.

Have you ever wondered any of the following?

How is the federal government taking control of the curriculum in our schools?
How are states being forced to adopt the new curriculum?
Why are all textbooks and national tests being rewritten to measure performance on the new federal curriculum?
How much of a disadvantage will nonpublic students face on the new national tests?
A hint on the standards in this program to be taught to the children, water is our mother, the trees are our brothers and sisters, The education is pushing for a world with no borders and much much more.

3 web sites with information from the standards for this program.

http://www.edwatch.org/index.html and http://www.edaction.org/

The new Federal Curriculum and How it is enforced (a four page paper)
http://www.edwatch.org/pdfs/FedEd%20_%20Quist%204pg%20w_form.pdf

go to http://www.edaction.org/mailinglist.htm to sign up for information on this program.

Review of FedEd from Townhall.com

The New Federal Curriculum and How It's Enforced

By Allen Quist

Review by Sunni Maravillosa:

Let me say first that I am not a conspiracy theorist advocate. In my experience such theories tend to rather easily collapse from their own weight; when they don't, the hushed references to an always-nebulous "they" as the perpetrators (how can "they" be so powerful and still be so unidentifiable, I always wonder) push my skept-o-meter into the red zone. I will admit to that meter bouncing around a bit when I first picked up Fed Ed: The New Federal Curriculum and How It's Enforced.

However, that soon stopped. Allen Quist has done his homework on the subject of the legislation that has given the United States a federal education curriculum, which every school district must accept under force of law. He delivers a solid indictment of the legislation in a slim (just 137 pages), highly readable text that is likely to leave any parent with children in school nauseated at the thought of what is being shoveled into those vulnerable minds. There's no conspiracy to dumb down America's children, unless federal law now counts as conspiracy. Given the way some of the law relevant to this topic has been crafted, that's probably a valid view.

Fed Ed is divided into three parts: the nature of the federal curriculum; its content; and enforcing it. Although they do cover similar ground -- the emphasis on multiculturalism and environmentalism over natural rights, for example -- redundancy is rather low. Each chapter is brief and to the point. While Quist does seem to be a bit overly sensitive to potential slights (e.g., taking affront at a description of Amish culture), he's generous with examples that point to a radical departure in the way American children are educated.

Quist begins by identifying the three bills that have given federal agencies control over the education curriculum: Goals 2000: Educate America Act; School-to-Work Opportunities Act; and the appropriations bill (HR6) in support of them. As a specific example, he cites language from HR6 authorizing the Secretary of Education to carry out a program educating students on U.S. history. The program created to accomplish this is called "We the People: The Citizen and the Constitution," and it is to be administered by the Center for Civic Education. CCE is a nongovernmental, nonprofit organization -- unaccountable to the voters whose tax funds support their allegedly educational efforts. (It's telling that no listing of staff, nor any mention of authors of executives summaries, reports, nor materials can be found on the CCE web site.) Quist then documents some of the "academic information" to be presented to students: references to the environment and multiculturalism far outnumber the references to the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution ... yet which is the most relevant civics topic? The right to keep and bear arms isn't mentioned even once.

Quist highlights other very disturbing results of these so-called education laws. One is the finding that, even though the curricula are not mandatory, most schools do choose to use them. The reason seems to be that increasingly, standardized tests are based on these curricula and materials. Since the primary means of accountability for teachers and other educators has shifted to performance on such tests, it isn't surprising that childrens' educations are focused on the material that will be on the tests. Lest one take comfort in thinking that the tests are open to examination or review by parents, Quist reveals that they are not. The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP), also widely referred to as "the nation's report card," is mandated by federal law to be given in all fifty states. The same law makes it a felony to disclose any NAEP questions. (Other key tests, such as the SAT, used by colleges to compare prospective students, is shifting to reflect NAEP standards and practices as well.)

If you're interested in genuine education and meaningful educational reform, reading Fed Ed will turn your stomach. The federal curriculum seems to be nothing more than further dumbing down of American children, and turning them into malleable clay for the state's grasping hands to mold. Yet the message that Allen Quist has carefully crafted must be digested, and shared, if it is to be successfully fought.

Sunni Maravillosa is editor of Sunni's Freedom Book of the Month.








23 posted on 04/29/2003 8:29:29 AM PDT by Esjay
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To: Esjay
How can you put down something you have no inside knowledge about? We are doing what must be done to improve our schools, to allow our people to start up businesses without the federal government finding 50 reasons for not allowing it. No white Ayrian groups that I have met and I have been speaking for the FSP for over a year. How can you equate us with religious cults? We have no religion but are made up of many religious people as well as Atheists.

To allow the federal government to misuse your tax dollars and give you instead the Center for Civic Education and the other federal programs is absolutely immoral! We in the FSP have higher standards and values.

The whole point of the FSP is to develop a community where the federal government cannot contaminate us. We all waited for Clinton to do something about the education mess and Bush even promised to do something about it. It is clearly not an option or priority for anyone in DC to do anything about the low reading scores or math scores that our kids are going to have to be saddled with for the rest of their lives.

Assuming you all have read Atlas Shrugged you should have some idea of what we are doing.

I love it that you have stated so clearly that we won't be welcomed into your states. How foolish you are! We will bring new businesses, new cluster home schools and a brand of freedom you haven't seen in years. You will see a renewal of the Constitution that you should welcome.

The state of choice is absolutely determined by the membership. We have no dictator or ruler to tell us where, when and how we move. We have researched many states for our needs which include the freedom to open our own schools, the freedom to start new businesses and the freedom to elect some of our own candidates for office starting in the cities and all the way to the state.

This is the way Vermont was taken from a free and open state to a totally Liberal bunch of socialists. Would you all prefer that invasion?

24 posted on 04/30/2003 1:18:31 PM PDT by Esjay
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To: churchillbuff
Someone on Neal Boortz (sp?) show today said that they wanted a state that was not "landlocked" by the US -- in other words, bordered another nation. For an escape route? They didn't say why.

Carolyn

25 posted on 05/01/2003 12:37:20 PM PDT by CDHart
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To: CDHart
What the FSP wants in open trading with other states and other countries. what we don't want are the labor unions stopping trains or ships coming into our businesses. Remember the Big Brown UPS is totally under the control of the unions.

For this reason, we want a coastal access incase we have to start our own transportation systems. Escape route? From what? If we choose a north western state where agricultural is at a minimum, we will need to have access to the areas where our food in grown. I don't think most of you realize how much the federal government runs our daily lives. The unions certainly do. From our schools to our transportation services.

I had no idea Freepers were so content with the status quo!

We are not planning on a cult because that would be a sure-death attitude to have. I am an Atheist and want an open and free local government.

I still don't understand the movement against this group! I didn't see anyone of you trying to stop the migrations of Liberals into Vermont! What possible harm could a bunch of victory loving Americans do to any city?

Many of you think we will immediately repeal all laws which is absurd! What we would like to see is that the 10th Amendment be strengthened to the point where the federal government has little influence over our daily lives. It was this way when I was a kid and anyone with a rational brain could see that our troubles started with federal laws taking authority over state laws.

26 posted on 05/02/2003 7:20:34 AM PDT by Esjay
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To: Esjay
I don't know why you're jumping all over me and other FReepers. I never heard of this project until yesterday and I was asking a simple question. It sounds like a good idea to me, but if you're an example of the people attracted by the project, I think I'll pass. Chill, for heaven's sake!

Carolyn

27 posted on 05/02/2003 9:03:56 AM PDT by CDHart
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To: CDHart
Easy Carolyn, plenty of the "hate libertarians first" crowd here on FR have given the FSP'ers a hard time on FR. All because a certain percentage of the FSP members consider themselves "libertarian". I guess some of us have grown a little gun-shy.
28 posted on 05/02/2003 9:13:00 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: churchillbuff
Free State Project activists have eye on Idaho

Again, or still?

FSP has had their eye on Idaho as long as I can remember, and they still have only 3,000 people willing to move.
They'll "pick a state" when they're at 5,000? That ought to be well into the next millinium.

29 posted on 05/02/2003 9:20:47 AM PDT by Just another Joe (FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: Just another Joe; Esjay; tinamina; AAABEST; archy; claidheamh mor; EBUCK; exodus; gnarledmaw; ...
FSP has had their eye on Idaho as long as I can remember, and they still have only 3,000 people willing to move. They'll "pick a state" when they're at 5,000? That ought to be well into the next millinium.

Seeing as how the Free State Project began around September 2001, and had 2500 members 72 weeks later, then 3000 at week 78, 6 weeks after that, and now rosters 3500 members pledged to make the move to the chosen goal state at week 84, six weeks and 500 members more later, it looks as if it may be just a little sooner than you estimate.

If the addition of around 500 new pledges every 6 weeks continues at the same rate, they'll have around 4000 about June 30th, 4500 circa 15 August, and the 5000 [at which point the vote for deciding *which state* is to be made] by the end of September...though if the rate of increased membership also continues to climb as more publicity and a growing disillusionment with Republican policies grows, the numbers will increase even sooner, particularly as returning service personnel come home and join in.

Watch and see....


30 posted on 05/09/2003 10:38:48 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Just another Joe; churchillbuff; AAABEST; archy; claidheamh mor; EBUCK; Esjay; exodus; ...
FSP has had their eye on Idaho as long as I can remember, and they still have only 3,000 people willing to move.

They'll "pick a state" when they're at 5,000? That ought to be well into the next millinium.

Mid-May: Signed members as of 5-14-2003: 3,682

Mid-April: 3000+..., Mid-May: 3500+.... Let us see if Mid-June offers a total of 4000 or more pledged and signed porcupines, or thereabouts. True, there may be some dropoff over the Summer months. But then too, the Montana conference over Memorial Day may offer additional velocity to the effort. We'll see.

But either way, here comes that new *millinium* you mentioned, a little ahead of schedule!

-archy-/-

31 posted on 05/17/2003 10:19:54 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: bedolido
My cousin just moved his family to Meridian this year; his mother has sold her house in Bullhead City, Arizona and will likely move close to him by the end of the year.

They are after me to move there as well, but I have no job prospects there and hate moving as a general principle.

Tell me what kind of winters you normally have there -- no B.S., now, I'd like to know.

It got way too cold here in Nashville last winter for me, and this spring seems to be about a month behind every month.

32 posted on 05/17/2003 10:43:22 AM PDT by Old Professer
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To: archy
Let me know how many are really willing to move and when they take over the legislature.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just think it's unrealistic.
33 posted on 05/17/2003 2:36:58 PM PDT by Just another Joe (FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: churchillbuff
I would think Nevada would be high on the list for the Free Staters. No state income tax and business regulations are minimal. Why isn't that a target state?

Nevada has a fairly large population of illegal aliens. Due to the fact that our federal government seems to absolutely adore illegal aliens, especially the Hispanic ones, Nevada's illegal aliens will probably someday become legal aliens, and then eventually American citizens who can vote.

34 posted on 05/17/2003 3:11:03 PM PDT by judgeandjury (The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state.)
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To: BlazingArizona; abnegation
I live in Pocatello and we don't want these people here either. They always move in and then try to change things. They should move someplace like Antartica. Or how about Arizona? Much nicer climate.

NO! We don't want them either! We're sick of Kalifornians infesting this state and trying to change things here to suit "their" needs too!

35 posted on 05/17/2003 3:19:47 PM PDT by kstewskis
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To: Esjay
I have repeatedly seen posts saying that the XIV amendment invalidates the X amendment. Have you come across this?
36 posted on 05/17/2003 3:28:22 PM PDT by TaxRelief
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To: kstewskis
Kalifornians

And I use that term loosely to mean anyone who moves here because they like the area, then come to realize it's "not like home" and they change it.

37 posted on 05/17/2003 3:28:23 PM PDT by kstewskis
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To: judgeandjury
Let's say the illegal aliens do become legal citizens and do get the right to vote, everything I am seeing says immigrants lean away from big government. What data do you have that says immigrants like a nanny state?
38 posted on 05/17/2003 3:31:31 PM PDT by TaxRelief
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To: CDHart
Uh, Carolyn, this 'project' has been around for quite awhile. You need to 'chill'; and, get more informed.
39 posted on 05/17/2003 4:18:26 PM PDT by Buckwheats
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To: Cachelot
"But it is also true that neo-nazi groups and groups with terrorist connections have looked at the free state project with undisguised greed."

SERIOUSLY...where are you getting this stuff from?

How does this make any logical sense....Neo-National Socialists who want to coerce people into certain types of behavior that they deem acceptable and Terrorists who promote totalitarian regimes and systems of rule, are looking at the Free State Project greedily. Errrr....because we're going to loosen all those social laws they want to uphold?

I'm assuming you are the typical disrupter of all threads Libertarian or leaning, because whether or not these groups have any interest in what the FSP is doing will have no impact on the groups ultimate success.

40 posted on 05/17/2003 8:24:18 PM PDT by Katya
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To: Katya
SERIOUSLY...where are you getting this stuff from?

Many places. Try boards such as "LibertyForum" or "Polinco".

Come back when you get your head out of the sand ;).

41 posted on 05/17/2003 8:36:01 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Cachelot
Well, seems like it would take a Nazi to know a Nazi, eh, Cachelot? Or do you have a citable reference for your claim?

Then again, you're probably just a petty disrupter.
42 posted on 05/17/2003 9:09:24 PM PDT by TaxRelief
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To: CDHart
The most reasonable explanation is for access to unrestricted trade routes. A landlocked state that managed to successfully leave the union would find it's self at the mercy of bordering states. It would take a long time for a state to tool up to become self sufficient, until then international trade would be needed to offset the losses because of the federal embargo that would immediately be imposed.

That's why I would want 'ocean' access, I would settle for less, but not happily.

43 posted on 05/17/2003 9:11:43 PM PDT by Rasputin_TheMadMonk (I am a (censored by mod), but I'm a free, white, gun owning (censored by mod). Just ask my exwife.)
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To: TaxRelief
Or do you have a citable reference for your claim?

I've given you general directions where to look for this stuff, and you expect me to go out and actually work for you? You'll have to wait a bit - I haven't kept any of it and sifting through their hangouts isn't on my agenda for tonite.

Then again, you're probably just a petty disrupter.< /whine>

Yeah, everytime I see an agglomeration of Brigadiers I just have to disrupt. The law forbids me to shoot'em :)).

44 posted on 05/17/2003 9:51:29 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Buckwheats
"You need to 'chill'; and, get more informed."

IMO, you need to learn some manners.

Carolyn

45 posted on 05/18/2003 4:28:36 AM PDT by CDHart
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To: Esjay
Sunni Maravillosa is editor of Sunni's Freedom...

Sunni Maravillosa is also, if I'm not mistaken, also intimately connected with "LibertyForum", a board that claims to be "Libertarian" but is in reality heavily slanted towards a neo-nazi userbase with a sprinkling of rabid communists. Its most popular article sources seem to be outlets such as:

Carol on the web
Strike the root
CODOH
Stormfront
Overthrow (Bill White)
Vanguard News Network (Alex Linder)
Aryan Nations
International A.N.S.W.E.R
AlJazeera
Zundelsite (Texoma channels Ingrid Rimland and Ernst Zundel)

In fact, Sunni is what they laughingly call a "Moderator" on that board, a function that seems to entail nothing but help ensure that the few non-nazi voices on there are censored by a nifty little mechanism involving "fame points". Simply explained, if you do not bow to the gods of Ernst Zundel and Adolf Hitler you become a social outcast and your posts cannot be read unless the reader perform some extra acrobatics to get at them.

46 posted on 05/18/2003 12:28:51 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Cachelot
You know Overthrow's Bill White was a Free Republic invader before his posting privileges were revoked. As with any succesful forum or strategy, you will always have whacky fringe groups watching from the sidelines to see if they can mimic the same success.
47 posted on 05/18/2003 3:40:43 PM PDT by Katya
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To: Katya
You know Overthrow's Bill White was a Free Republic invader before his posting privileges were revoked.

I'm not surprised. Alex Linder of Vanguard has been on here too, so have a number of other nazi notables such as Matthias Giwer, and heaps of "small fry" such as texoma, JRadcliffe and D_Joyce. All have now congregated on LibertyForum.

And there you have the problem, really, in a nutshell. LF is a "free society". It has, basically, no rule except mob rule. It lends itself to being taken over (not that that wasn't by design in the first place, the site starters seeded it deliberately with neo-nazis and terrorist wannabes). Now that it seems that the operators of LF are involved with the FSP, I expect the project to fall into the same morass unless steps are taken to prevent such a development.

48 posted on 05/18/2003 4:18:27 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Cachelot
"Now that it seems that the operators of LF are involved with the FSP"

They certainly may have signed up for FSP and may be part of the number total, but the leadership within FSP has not changed to include them.
For one thing, FSP is not the same as the LP, there is an organization and people certainly can be removed, and perhaps you'd be surprised to know that Libertarians have been kicked off of FSP internet forums for their behavior.
Of course, we certainly can't stop anyone from moving to any state they choose. At this point Neo's and other whack jobs can move freely to any state within the union.

49 posted on 05/18/2003 9:15:38 PM PDT by Katya
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To: goodnesswins
Leaving WA behind? I have had similar thoughts. This state is trying to follow CA as closely as possible, with all the same terrible consequences. How on earth did a tough logger state turn into a RAT paradise?
50 posted on 05/18/2003 9:20:32 PM PDT by Libertina (How will the RATS overcome the "flightsuit" advantage ? LOL)
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