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Rumfeld's Rejection Of Islamic State Angers Shias
Independent (UK) ^ | 4-26-2003 | Phil Reeves

Posted on 04/25/2003 4:21:24 PM PDT by blam

Rumsfeld's rejection of Islamic state angers Shias

By Phil Reeves in Baghdad
26 April 2003

Donald Rumsfeld, the US Secretary of State, will have won plaudits from his zealous friends by declaring that an "Iranian-style" Islamic government "is not going to happen" in Iraq. But his words fell on stony ground outside the al-Muhsen mosque in Baghdad yesterday.

Members of the huge Shia crowd gathered for Friday prayers were quick to spot the contradiction in his position.

"I thought the Americans said they wanted a democracy in Iraq," said Kassem al-Sa'adi, a 41-year-old merchant. "If it is a democracy, why are they allowed to make the rules?"

About 13,000 people gathered outside the mosque where the imam, Jabal al-Khafji called for an Islamic state in Iraq. The cleric's view is widely shared by Iraq's Shia majority which is clamouring for the occupying forces to be removed.

Dr al-Khafji said that no political alliances should be formed by Shia groups unless it was with Islamic groups. Islam must dictate all policy-making, he added.

Any move to an Iranian-style Shia Islamic state would also be opposed by the Kurds, the Iraqi secular intelligentsia and the Sunni minority. Yet pressure is building. Iran is quietly at work in Iraq's Shia community, with intelligence agents reportedly active in the south. The Iranian-backed Badr militia has been asserting itself in border towns.

The millions of Shias who gathered this week in the holy city of Karbala served as a warning to the US that it must find some way of accommodating the clerics. A move in that direction was evident yesterday on the streets.

Patrolling the worshippers was a band of Iraqi policemen wearing freshly pressed uniforms, moustaches and nervous frowns. They are members of the old civil police force. They played a mundane walk-on part in the regime's apparatus but their appearance was enough to set off alarm bells.

These men had been re-packaged in an effort to ease their passage into one of the most sensitive parts of the new Iraq. It was also a tentative attempt to bring the Shias under the larger umbrella of the still-unformed government and its law enforcement agencies. Only a few carried pistols, and these were hidden.

All wore labels stating their rank and – in an effort to establish their legitimacy before the locals – a logo showing Mohammed Bakr al-Sadr, the Shia cleric whose murder by Saddam has made him a martyr. His stature is such that Saddam City – the Shia quarter of Baghdad – has been renamed after him.

While the crowd listened to the imam's address, police formed a line separating the media from the mullahs and their followers. But their authority was nothing compared to the other force supervising the occasion – young men with ammunition belts and Kalashnikovs, charged by their religious leaders with maintaining order. They directed the traffic and the crowds, and stood on the rooftops, guarding against attack. These are part of the Shia apparatus which currently runs the show in this part of the capital, just as they do in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala and some of the border towns.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: democracy; islamic; rejection; rumsfelds; shias; state; theocracy
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"If it is a democracy, why are they allowed to make the rules?"

Shias or not, dummies, you lost the war!!

1 posted on 04/25/2003 4:21:25 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
As Powell or Rumsfield put it, "we are not going to work with the Iraqi people to put into place a government which offers thr people: one person, one vote, one time. It will be a representative state in which there are regular transfers of power from one group to another via the ballot box."
2 posted on 04/25/2003 4:25:19 PM PDT by jimkress
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To: blam
Dr al-Khafji said that no political alliances should be formed by Shia groups unless it was with Islamic groups. Islam must dictate all policy-making, he added.

That ain't democracy, idiot.

3 posted on 04/25/2003 4:25:40 PM PDT by TheConservator (Veni, vidi, vici!--G. W. "Julius" Bush.)
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To: blam
Unfortunately, we didn't advertise ourselves as conquerors, which makes the job more delicate. After WWII, there was no question that we were occupying Germany as a victorious power. With Iraq, we are coming as a "liberator." Consequently, we cannot immediately and swiftly supress rebellion and dissent. Ironically, the very group we need to run the regime, the educated Sunni elite, was co-opted by Saddam and his thugs.
4 posted on 04/25/2003 4:26:03 PM PDT by Mister Magoo
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To: blam
why are they allowed to make the rules?

Bwahahahaha

And: an angry Muslimist? Imagine that.

5 posted on 04/25/2003 4:27:43 PM PDT by RightWhale (Theorems link concepts; proofs establish links)
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To: RightWhale
Bwahahahaha
And: an angry Muslimist? Imagine that.


LMAO!  A seething muhammaden, can you imagine it?!?
6 posted on 04/25/2003 4:29:38 PM PDT by GirlShortstop
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To: RightWhale
Next thing you know they'll call us the Great Satan and declare jihad.
7 posted on 04/25/2003 4:31:20 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: blam
Did The Independent really call Rumsfeld the "Secretary of State?"

Bozos

8 posted on 04/25/2003 4:32:14 PM PDT by beckett
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To: beckett
I clicked on the site and yes, they did.
9 posted on 04/25/2003 4:35:44 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: blam
Donald Rumsfeld, the US Secretary of State

Hard to imagine how anyone can make supposedly credible statements about an individual they don't even know what position they hold.

Last I looked, Rummy has to do with the defense department. :)

10 posted on 04/25/2003 4:36:24 PM PDT by easonc52
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To: blam
You would think that everything this country has been put through with one dictator making all of the rules all of the time, that this kind of power should not be held to one person. Let all of the people vote in an Iraqi who will work for them and not them working for him.
11 posted on 04/25/2003 4:36:48 PM PDT by Arpege92
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To: GirlShortstop


Again, the peace-loving Islamists prove that they have s*** for brains. You would think after they had their ears cut off by Saddam for 24 years (story on CNN this evening said the DOCTORS in their hospitals did this little service for Saddam), they would be a little grateful to us for overthrowing him. But no-o-o-o-o....they want to inflict their own god-awful lifestyle on other Iraqis now. It makes one think we wasted an awful lot of tax dollars and over 100 very precious American lives for this pathetically clueless bunch of loudmouths. We owe them NOTHING more!!!
12 posted on 04/25/2003 4:36:56 PM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: blam
These people aren't even ashamed that THEY didn't have the manhood to fight for their own freedom. They step right up like the ingrates they are and DEMAND things from their liberators! Of course we won't slap them down, we're too sensitive for that sort of hairy-chested behavior. Whatever...
13 posted on 04/25/2003 4:37:42 PM PDT by TalBlack
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To: blam
"I thought the Americans said they wanted a democracy in Iraq," said Kassem al-Sa'adi, a 41-year-old merchant. "If it is a democracy, why are they allowed to make the rules?"

Someone needs to splain exactly what 'democracy' means. It doesn't just mean "one man, one vote, one time" as Newt Gingrich put it so succintly at the AEI panel discussion earlier this week. It means a Constitution that allows freedom of worship (missing in every Islamic run govt. on the planet!)regular unimpeded elections, and freedom to criticize the govt. without fear of threats or physical harm to yourself or your family. It does not mean trading a secular dictatorship for a sectarian one, a la Iran!

14 posted on 04/25/2003 4:38:09 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: blam
In a land full of nuts, one brand of nut will want to run the country. Democracy will allow them to do it through the vote.
15 posted on 04/25/2003 4:40:57 PM PDT by RLK
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To: blam
Most of the people are used to the idea that one tribe is always and top and everybody else has to be that tribe's bitch. As soon as we make it clear there will be no Sunni or Shia dominated Iraq, I think a lot of folks on both sides will be willing to forget about the power games and just get on with their lives.

As it stands, I'd wager that a great number (if not most) of the Shias see this as their golden opportunity to nail the Sunnis. I don't think they care whether their government is "Iranian-style" or anything else -- this is payback.

Also, besides the exiles, most of them really have no clue what democracy means or why its beneficial. Even the dumbest East Asians I know can look at Japan or Taiwan and kind of "get it." But there is absolutely no example for the Arabs. It is not at all irrational for them to suppose that a theocracy might improve their lot. It's ignorant yes, but not irrational.

16 posted on 04/25/2003 4:43:32 PM PDT by American Soldier
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To: TalBlack
Until verified otherwise, I choose to agree with Rumsfield and others, that these are minority groups (maybe even funded etc. by outside parties).

As all of us know, anti-war groups in the U.S. are sometimes funded and pushed by anti-Bush, and anti-U.S.A. groups.
17 posted on 04/25/2003 4:44:07 PM PDT by easonc52
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To: MEG33
"Next thing you know they'll call us the Great Satan and declare jihad."

And if 51% of them agree with that position, isn't that democracy? And what then?

Our continual pumping of the notion that democracy is the highest value, is coming back to bite us on the butt.
18 posted on 04/25/2003 4:44:46 PM PDT by ricpic
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To: blam

I don't believe this reporter is being straight with people. He's just trying to cause trouble.

    The cleric's view is widely shared by Iraq's Shia majority which is clamouring for the occupying forces to be removed.

How does he know what "Iraq's Shia majority" thinks? He's been to one frigging mosque, and heard the only guy with a pulpit call for this. Last week, a million Shia pilgrims showed up in Karbala, and the Mullahs tried the same thing there. 3,000 people shouted what the Mullahs wanted shouted. The other 997,000 shined them on.

    The millions of Shias who gathered this week in the holy city of Karbala served as a warning to the US that it must find some way of accommodating the clerics.

The Hell it did. The Shias didn't just "gather," and the Mullahs had nothing to do with why they were there. It's a traditional pilgrimage that occurs on that day, and this is the first year since Saddam took over they've been allowed to do it. So a million showed up. But it had nothing to do with Mullahs, and it had nothing to do with wanting an Islamic state. To suggest that this is some "warning to the US" is more wishful thinking from the Quagmire Salesmen in the press.


19 posted on 04/25/2003 4:54:58 PM PDT by Nick Danger (The liberals are slaughtering themselves at the gates of the newsroom)
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To: ricpic
Its not about democracy, its is about a democratic secular government -- you know, seperation of church and state? A decocratic government will promote democracy, but certainly a bunch of Islamists complaining about democracy will not. Lets move on, not much to see here.
20 posted on 04/25/2003 4:57:59 PM PDT by jerrymdss
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To: blam
There will truely be some interesting days ahead. It is obvious that the concept of seperation of church and state is not exactly well ingrained in Iraq.

I think we know what would happen if we went around Iraq locking up recalcitrant clerics. Some sort of sanctions must be available to a new government to deal with that problem when it arises. I'm just not smart enough to figure out what form the sanctions would take to be successful.

21 posted on 04/25/2003 5:00:06 PM PDT by fightu4it (heneedshisasskicked)
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To: kittymyrib
they want to inflict their own god-awful lifestyle on other Iraqis now.

Of course the Kurds, much better fighters than any Arab, Shiite or Sunni, will have something to say about that. :)

22 posted on 04/25/2003 5:00:54 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: SuziQ
It means a Constitution that allows freedom of worship (missing in every Islamic run govt. on the planet!)regular unimpeded elections, and freedom to criticize the govt. without fear of threats or physical harm to yourself or your family.

Sounds more like a Whiggish Republic to me, rather than a Democracy <Spit, ugg, spit again.

23 posted on 04/25/2003 5:02:57 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: American Soldier
As it stands, I'd wager that a great number (if not most) of the Shias see this as their golden opportunity to nail the Sunnis. I don't think they care whether their government is "Iranian-style" or anything else -- this is payback.

Perhaps the tribunals of the criminals, mostly Sunnies, but some Shiites and even some from the Christian communities, may help change their minds about the virtues of a secular law and satisfy their need for payback. A few ropes will insure that payback is a bitch.

24 posted on 04/25/2003 5:05:35 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: El Gato
You don't like the constitution?
25 posted on 04/25/2003 5:14:10 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: blam
It's time to come clean with the term "democracy", which has been misused to mean "representative republic" for a long time.

Democracy is akin to two wolves and one sheep deciding what's to be had for dinner.

A representative republic, on the other hand, represents the people as a whole, while protecting MINORITY poulations, which is EXACTLY what Iraq, with all its divers populations desperately needs.

26 posted on 04/25/2003 5:19:41 PM PDT by Dec31,1999 (Thank You)
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To: blam
Poor little Shi'as. Maybe they should take of arms and attack the 3rd ID.
27 posted on 04/25/2003 5:28:25 PM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: TalBlack
>>These people aren't even ashamed that THEY didn't have the manhood to fight for their own freedom. <<

Especially those cowardly clerics who waited in exile in Iran and Syria until someone else toppled Saddam. Their audacity is appalling.
risa
28 posted on 04/25/2003 5:28:30 PM PDT by Risa
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To: fightu4it
Every group is clamoring for power there. The worst thing to do is to abandon the non-believers, the rational folks, the slaves to Islamofascism, who without the current environment, would certainly throw the swith on their masters given half the chance.

But we don't hear from them. They are too busy trying to git along to get along in the fascistic system of Mosqes, Islam, Radical Imams, what have you.

Our aim is toward the reasonable, rational, non-extremists. Our aim is to promote Freedom in a world of slaves dominated by religious fanatics gone mad.

29 posted on 04/25/2003 5:30:17 PM PDT by Dec31,1999 (Thank You)
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To: Risa
You should walk a mile in their shoes.
30 posted on 04/25/2003 5:31:39 PM PDT by Dec31,1999 (Thank You)
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To: fightu4it
It is obvious that the concept of seperation of church and state is not exactly well ingrained in Iraq.

Herein lies the rub with Islam. It the only major religion of the world that considers religon and civil control as unity.

This unified concept is at the heart of the threat that Islam presents to secular governance.

31 posted on 04/25/2003 5:33:27 PM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: blam
The need a constitution that protects the rights of the minorities -- to practice whatever religion they want or NOT to practice a religion. The only way to do that is keep religion out of government. Regretably, these people will kill you if you don't practice their religion. Either Iraq will become peaceful and free or we'll be back in 10 years with Jeb!
32 posted on 04/25/2003 5:34:09 PM PDT by Imagine
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To: Risa
It's easy to call the shots from the outside, but when fascism really takes root, freedom of speech becomes impossible, unless you feel like dying and having your family executed as well.

Sorry to break into your dream.

33 posted on 04/25/2003 5:34:58 PM PDT by Dec31,1999 (Thank You)
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To: Risa
Especially those cowardly clerics who waited in exile in Iran and Syria until someone else toppled Saddam. Their audacity is appalling. risa

It is more than appalling, it is seeking to profit by another's efforts. Socialism works like this too. We need to establish that there is no power vaccuum in Iraq, and I suspect this is why Rummy made his remarks.

34 posted on 04/25/2003 5:38:44 PM PDT by KC_for_Freedom
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To: Imagine
The problem with Islam is that it's a religion AND a political philosophy, all wrapped up in one, bent on destroying adherents to other religions, philosophies. So how would you propose we deal with a religion that directs its members to kill all others? Is that fair?
35 posted on 04/25/2003 5:39:51 PM PDT by Dec31,1999 (Thank You)
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To: blam
Donald Rumsfeld, the US Secretary of State, will have won plaudits from his zealous friends by declaring that an "Iranian-style" Islamic government "is not going to happen" in Iraq.

Rumsfeld as Secretary of State would be on par with using sledgehammers to kill mosquitoes.

Of course his rejection of the Islamic state out of hand is something I'd have done too.

36 posted on 04/25/2003 5:44:44 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: Amerigomag
A Nation "Ruled By Islamic Law" is ultimately a Dictatorship--Controlled by Whoever decides what the "Laws of Islam" dictate.

As it was "with the 'Mafia,'" the "Capo-de-Capo"--(The Current 'Mullah,')--is the "Boss" of the Iraqui Population!

The Iraqui's are a talented & educated People; They Deserve Better than a Horrible, Repressive, 'Neo-NAZI' "Theocratic Dictatorship" run by the Ignorant Psychopaths now ruling Iran !!

Doc

37 posted on 04/25/2003 6:24:07 PM PDT by Doc On The Bay
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To: ricpic
Quagmire Alert!! Ahhhhh! The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!
38 posted on 04/25/2003 6:28:44 PM PDT by Guillermo (Sic 'em!)
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To: blam
Shiia radicals may die of a fatal disease..Bullet in the brain.
39 posted on 04/25/2003 6:30:57 PM PDT by Broward Lion
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To: TheConservator
Look for Dr al-Khafji to disappear or be found dead. He is dealing with special ops now not Madliene Albrieght.
40 posted on 04/25/2003 6:33:00 PM PDT by Broward Lion
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To: TalBlack
"These people aren't even ashamed that THEY didn't have the manhood to fight for their own freedom."

That is so true. These people are pathetic.

41 posted on 04/25/2003 6:51:00 PM PDT by Theresa
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To: ricpic
And if 51% of them agree with that position, isn't that democracy? And what then?

THis is why the US is not a democracy, and hopefully never will be. The US is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic. The difference is that in a Constitutional Republic certain rights are outside the reach of majority vote

42 posted on 04/25/2003 7:01:48 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
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To: MEG33
Next thing you know they'll call us the Great Satan and declare jihad.

I'm giving it two years maximum from the fall of Baghdad
until exactly that happens.  If they can get past two years
without religious war or armed revolt, Iraq might work.
43 posted on 04/25/2003 8:00:15 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: gcruse
Praying for a better Iraq.God bless our efforts and bring forth good leaders.
44 posted on 04/25/2003 8:08:31 PM PDT by MEG33
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To: Dec31,1999
>>Sorry to break into your dream<<

Perhaps you are dreaming, I am not.

risa
45 posted on 04/25/2003 10:57:23 PM PDT by Risa
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To: Dec31,1999
>>You should walk a mile in their shoes. <<

Would you mind referencing the statement to which you refer so I might make sense of your errant comments. Whose shoes? A rabble-rousing Muslim cleric's shoes? Never!

risa
46 posted on 04/25/2003 11:06:37 PM PDT by Risa
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To: jimkress

"we are not going to work with the Iraqi people to put into place a government which offers thr people: one person, one vote, one time. It will be a representative state in which there are regular transfers of power from one group to another via the ballot box." -- jimkress

The only transfer of power that exists in Rumsfeld's mind are your tax dollars to pay for all these world wars that Congress refuses to declare. Our nation is not innocent about the excitation of war in the ME... in fact, American government created much of it. Creating a democracy in Iraq is nothing more than making the claim that America will be involved for over 50 years in Iraq as America is involved with over one hundred other countries around the world ... all to the dismay of the American taxpayer.
47 posted on 04/25/2003 11:19:39 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: blam; Sabertooth
Isn't this group the minority anyway?
48 posted on 04/25/2003 11:29:30 PM PDT by Jael
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To: Risa
Perhaps you are dreaming, I am not.

Wouldn't be the first time! Feel free to wake me up! LOL!

Whose shoes?

I was talking about ordinary folks, or innocent people under Islamofascist rule.

49 posted on 04/27/2003 7:51:28 AM PDT by Dec31,1999 (Full speed ahead!)
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To: Dec31,1999
>>I was talking about ordinary folks, or innocent people under Islamofascist rule<<

Oh, now I understand. In my comment, I wasn't referring to the Iraqi people. I referred to the Muslim clerics, who would return from exile, prey upon the vulnerable minds of the Iraqi people, stir up trouble for the liberators, and demand the creation of a regime as fascist as Saddam's. I find this behavior appalling and cowardly, too.


regards,
risa
50 posted on 04/27/2003 10:19:22 AM PDT by Risa
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