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Free Stater allegedly arrested for passing out FSP literature at NRA convention
Free State Project ^ | 4/27/03 | DadaOrwell

Posted on 04/28/2003 1:22:36 AM PDT by Dada Orwell

Morning, FReepers! I have some news I thought might interest you:

Free State Project Member Services Director Tim Condon was apparently arrested Sunday for handing out FSP literature at an NRA convention in Orlando. This according to FSP president Jason Sorens.

Many Free Staters and gun rights advocates were already angry at the NRA for leaning too far left on certain gun control issues. Yesterday's arrest seems to be focusing new attention on the NRA's perceived shortcomings.

Details are on the FSP forum at: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1647;start=0#lastPost

Dada Liberty in Our Lifetime freestateproject.org


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: freestateproject; freestaters; fsp; gunrights; nra; porcupines
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1 posted on 04/28/2003 1:22:36 AM PDT by Dada Orwell
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To: Dada Orwell
The NRA can't 'arrest' anyone. What, specifically, was the person doing to prompt an arrest?
2 posted on 04/28/2003 1:28:22 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (tp://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Why didn't they shoot him?
3 posted on 04/28/2003 1:29:23 AM PDT by drlevy88
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To: Dada Orwell
This is not enough information to comment on.
4 posted on 04/28/2003 1:32:21 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: Dada Orwell
Call me when this story loses the "allegedly."
5 posted on 04/28/2003 1:32:21 AM PDT by L.N. Smithee (Just because I don't think like you doesn't mean I don't think for myself)
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To: Dada Orwell
What is the Free State Project, please?
6 posted on 04/28/2003 1:39:51 AM PDT by annyokie
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To: annyokie
Its a campaign for Libertarians to all agree on a state to take over. It'll never happen... Libertarians probably can not muster the discipline necessary to bring it off, and if they can it's like the dog who catches the fire truck... what does it do now, whiz on it?
7 posted on 04/28/2003 1:44:07 AM PDT by drlevy88
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To: Dada Orwell
"Free Stater allegedly arrested for passing out FSP literature at NRA convention"

Good news!

--Boot Hill

8 posted on 04/28/2003 1:50:31 AM PDT by Boot Hill
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To: Dada Orwell
More information, please!

By the way, there's a lot of anti-NRA commentary over there. I respect the gist of it, but I think working to preserve and advance 2nd amendment freedoms within our legal system is important, even if it's a contradiction in terms to some. I think things would be a lot worse without the NRA.

9 posted on 04/28/2003 1:50:50 AM PDT by risk
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To: drlevy88; Dada Orwell
..its a campaign for Libertarians to all agree on a state to take over...

They came very close to that dream in the 1970s, on an island in the Vanuatu group which declared independence under the guidance of a group of Australian and American Libertarians, including their then-candidate for President. The revolt was put down with the aid of foreign troops, including Australia's.

10 posted on 04/28/2003 1:51:43 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup2.html)
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To: drlevy88
Libertarians cannot agree on anything except the legalization of all controlled substantances and freedom of perverse sexual practices from all I have learned about them. Otherwise, they are all for Big Government having mondo control over our lives.

Great analogy, BTW, the dog and the firetruck.
11 posted on 04/28/2003 1:52:37 AM PDT by annyokie
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To: annyokie
Otherwise, they are all for Big Government having mondo control over our lives.

Oh brother. You've just blasphemed every libertarian and Libertarian from Maine to California. Stand back... incoming!...

12 posted on 04/28/2003 1:57:23 AM PDT by drlevy88
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To: drlevy88
I'm a big (little) girl. I can take the heat. Libertarians are fence sitters just like the folks who call themselves Independent so they don't have to take a position about any issues until they see which way the wind is blowing.

Justify, Libertarians! Bring it on!
13 posted on 04/28/2003 2:06:06 AM PDT by annyokie
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To: tpaine; OWK
I know you two like a challenge. OWK, you come bloviate while tpaine, well, paines us. (At least tpaine half makes sense.)
14 posted on 04/28/2003 2:08:20 AM PDT by drlevy88
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To: drlevy88
There are upper and lower case libertarians? I become more confused about libertarians by the minute.
15 posted on 04/28/2003 2:08:43 AM PDT by annyokie
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To: Dada Orwell
LIBELTERIAN alert ping
16 posted on 04/28/2003 2:13:09 AM PDT by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (CCCP = clinton, chiraq, cristein, and putin = stalin wannabes)
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To: annyokie
Libertarians cannot agree on anything except the legalization of all controlled substantances and freedom of perverse sexual practices from all I have learned about them. Otherwise, they are all for Big Government having mondo control over our lives.

When I was a boy, I asked my father what the difference was between a Libertarian and an Anarchist. His reply was brief:

"About ten thousand dollars."

The older I get, the more I appreciate the wisdom in his offhand comment. ;)

-Jay

17 posted on 04/28/2003 2:19:18 AM PDT by Jay D. Dyson (Terrorists of the world, RISE UP! [So I may more easily gun you down.])
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To: Jay D. Dyson
Did Dad mean that in or a good or a bad way? I'll admit I am in the weeds here since I have never met a Libertarian who could explain his/her position on anything unless drugs are involved.

Come and get me, Libertarians!
18 posted on 04/28/2003 2:33:10 AM PDT by annyokie
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To: Dada Orwell
posted link
19 posted on 04/28/2003 2:48:18 AM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK (***You have the right to say what you want ! We have the right not to listen !***)
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To: drlevy88
This movement is NOT by "Libertarians",. The National LP did the Free State Project a favor by not endorsing the FSP. So quit already with the criticisms based on the National LP platform because it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the FSP. There are pieces of the LP platform which I feel are treasonous -- you can guess which ones.

This is the first major effort to get some tens of thousands of Jeffersonian Classical Liberals, traditional Ike or Goldwater Republicans, and Blue Dog Democrats off their collective couches and MOVE to do something better than just griping.

Every one of us freedom-hungry gun owners should jump on this bandwagon because we are outnumbered and outvoted every place else. In the Free State our chances will be ten to a hundred times better because, obviously, we are losing out where we are because most of the much-vaunted "80 million gun-owners" (trap shooters, etc.) vote against us (as evidenced by the last few Presidential elections).

There could be 20 million if one quarter of gunowners got seriously active and moving for Freedom -- then Free Staters could do all ten candidate states -- or, better yet, stop our losses where we are. It used to be in Pennysylvania that if a politician crossed the hunters and gunowners, his career was over. Not any more. Those hunters and gunowners voted for the likes of Gore (in spite of my arguments).

There are supposedly 80 million gunowners. Can we round up ONE IN ONE THOUSAND GUN OWNERS to help? Surely there are 80 thousand who will move to another state for Freedom. Our ancestors did a heckuva lot more than that. They moved across the ocean to to gain Freedom (and before the Native Americans criticize that statement, they too moved across an ocean to get here).

Though some criticize "losertarians", the eighty million gun owners have not been doing any better -- compared to where we were in the old days in the book UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. Though it seems like we are wasting our time with some critics, they keep sprouting like bad weeds. Our job will never be done. Thank you to all those holding the fort against spoiler critics who have nothing better to do than to pull down anyone who offers a better idea to get out of this basket of crabs headed for the boiler. On the other hand, we have some critics on the FSP forum who criticize us for being too cautious -- we figure they are agents provocateur (their behaviour sure meets the description).

The Free State candidate states are only those with less than a 1.5 million people. Ideally they should have less than a million people. 20,000 classical liberal activists will have a tough go of it even in states with half that population. Thus Arizona and other big states never made even the first cut. Nebraska, Rhode Island, and Hawaii were culled in the second cut. Nevada, West Virginia, and New Mexico were culled in the third cut. Idaho, Maine, New Hampshire and even Montana are likely too big to change for Liberty in OUR Lifetimes (and I'm over fifty).

Wyoming is indeed one of the strongest contenders. Free Staters can keep the Californicaters from Colorado from Denverizing Cheyenne. Free Staters are determined to help Wyoming folks hang on to the Liberties they have left and to recover what they've lost. Yes, the Free Staters likely will be assimilated by the best of Wyoming -- that is a good thing.
Click Here to Free Wyoming

Seriously pragmatic libertarians (and there are a few thousand of us in there fighting from elected offices) are welcome to help. The others won't get off their never-get-dirty-with-politics lazy butts because they are scared of actually catching that office they've been chasing or criticizing.

At the following link is one of my contributions to the Free State Project. Changing State Government from the Bottom Up

The above tactics can help where we are IF we had enough activist allies fighting for freedom. But I know all too well that we don't. With concentrating our efforts on one state first, Freedom can win again. THEN the next state, and the next, and the next...

P.S. This project is not a secessionist movement. Neither is it a bunch of secessionists, anarchists, and racists. The Free Staters don't need or want such trouble.

20 posted on 04/28/2003 3:51:11 AM PDT by Solitar
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Dada Orwell
So what did he do to merit this "alleged" arrest?
22 posted on 04/28/2003 4:20:23 AM PDT by Catspaw
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To: annyokie
> There are upper and lower case libertarians?

Libertarians are members of a political party. Alternately, libertarianism is a political philosophy.

> I become more confused about libertarians by the minute.

Okay, but please don't be confused by this: If Republicans hadn't abandoned Reaganism, they'd not have the slightest problem with either variety of libertarians.

One may gauge Republican worry about libertarism by the hysterical lies and insults here on FR.

The misbehavior rests with a Republican party that has sold out its own professed beliefs, and no longer deserves to win.

Libel and slander will not bring libertarians back into the fold. Only steering the Republican Party back to Reaganism will accomplish that.
23 posted on 04/28/2003 4:23:43 AM PDT by xdem
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To: drlevy88
I know you two like a challenge.

I doubt it. There isn't enough accuracy in those remarks to merit rebuttal.

24 posted on 04/28/2003 4:31:57 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excessive legislation.)
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To: Solitar
Thank you....very well said. Most of the FSP folks I've communicated with are very pragmatic. The FreeRepublic criticism of LIbertarians hinges solely on the drug issue. Never mind that the Libertarians are a leading pro second amendment force.

For many libertarians, like myself....the drug issue is one of wasted dollars. Drugs weren't always illegal in this country, and when they were available at the local pharmacist you certainly didn't see an addicted population, and you certainly didn't see the violence and money spent policing a no-win position.
So to all you paranoid Freepers, go ahead and keep harping on Libertarian idealism, obviously it's just your pessimistic left leaning authoritarian streak poking through.

25 posted on 04/28/2003 7:19:11 AM PDT by Katya
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To: annyokie
Justify?
Justify what, that you are having delusions about libertarians?
26 posted on 04/28/2003 7:54:50 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Dada Orwell
Well, I think the Free State Project is a great idea. While I think many libertarians are rather goofy, - this is one thing that I would like them to succeed on. I wish them well and hope it works.
27 posted on 04/28/2003 7:59:18 AM PDT by Hacksaw
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To: Dada Orwell
Libertarians cannot agree on anything except the legalization of all controlled substantances and freedom of perverse sexual practices from all I have learned about them.

I'm a libertarian and I don't agree on that. ;)

It's fair to say that there is much disagreement among libertarians about a large number of issues, but yes, in general they will agree that government should not be in the business of interfering with actions that do not harm any non-consenting third parties.

Otherwise, they are all for Big Government having mondo control over our lives.

Is this a troll? What are you talking about? Unless you consider respect for property rights to be "control", since you are not allowed to violate the property rights of others.

Libertarian Underground
28 posted on 04/28/2003 8:02:24 AM PDT by CharlesMcD
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To: Dada Orwell
Thank you....very well said. Most of the FSP folks I've communicated with are very pragmatic. The FreeRepublic criticism of LIbertarians hinges solely on the drug issue. Never mind that the Libertarians are a leading pro second amendment force.

Leading in what sense? Among dog catchers in low population states?

Regarding the drug problem, I think libertarians are really killing themselves by taking such an extremist position. Saying that drugs should be legalized is fine, if you can explain how drug abuse would be kept under control. The reason people are not receptive, IMO, is because they don't want their children to be exposed to dealers and addicts at every turn. How would an idealized libertarian society avoid this?

This essay is an example of where a more thoughtful libertarian is coming from on the drug issue. He does not advocate or predict heroin kiosks at the local mall.
29 posted on 04/28/2003 8:11:01 AM PDT by CharlesMcD
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To: Hacksaw
Goofy?

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the problem is with Libertarian ideology on this board.

Pro 2A.

Anti-Big Government.

Anti-crappy lawsuites.

Pro Free-market.

Anti-Taxes.

No welfare. No HillaryCare. No SS ponzi schemes. Voluntary contractual agreements where you don't have to hire people via qoutas. No free loaders. Pro-Self Defense. Pro-Property Rights.

What the hell? Why are so many people on FR so dead set against it all? Because the libertarians DON'T want to legislate morality? Despite the crappy historical track record other nations of have with that. Because libertarians don't care if YOU screw up YOUR life? Despite the fact that even with all the laws on the books, people are STILL screwing up their lives... it's just that now EVERYONE has to pay for it.

Bla, bla, bla.... you so-called "conservatives" keep throwing the same old garbage around. You keep dodging the fact that you love your Big Government just as much as the liberals do, as LONG AS it's your guy in charge and they are expanding government in the areas YOU like. It never seems to dawn on you that "Bigger Government" has NEVER been the answer, so you just piss down the neck of anyone trying to roll it back.

Bunch a freakin' cowards is what you are.

30 posted on 04/28/2003 8:13:10 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Dada Orwell
If all the gunowners in all the states moved to a single state, their voice in government would be limited to two senators and a handful of congressman.

Please explain why that's a good thing.
31 posted on 04/28/2003 8:22:57 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: risk
There is anti-NRA stuff out there, but I never experienced it until recently.

Georgia has legislation being proposed that will criminalize those with a loaded gun in a house if anyone (children & others) have potential access to it. This is a threat to anyone who keeps a loaded gun (without a trigger lock) for home protection.

The NRA is actually helping those drafting this "negligent condition" legislation and has actively opposed to any exception for firearms when several amendments have been proposed.

If passed in Georgia, this law will be more restrictive of home defense than exists in Massachusetts - with NRA help.

32 posted on 04/28/2003 8:27:07 AM PDT by NorthGA
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To: drlevy88
Sorry, it's NOT an organization of Libertarians. There are a number of Libertarians within the ranks, but there are also a whole lot of Republicans and even a few Democrats. And while it's true that some of the avowed aims of the Free Staters are the same as those of the Libertarians, there are also a number of differences. Before you make blanket statemewnts like you have here, you really should do a bit of research.
33 posted on 04/28/2003 8:31:02 AM PDT by oldfart
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To: Solitar
You rang?
34 posted on 04/28/2003 8:32:34 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est.)
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To: annyokie
Pleae show me proof of Libertarians wanting BIG GOVERNMENT
35 posted on 04/28/2003 8:35:39 AM PDT by asneditor (A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away)
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To: tpaine
I think ol AnnYokie has had a tad bit too much "spring water" in her coffee!
36 posted on 04/28/2003 8:37:07 AM PDT by asneditor (A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away)
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To: Dead Corpse
". . .as LONG AS it's your guy in charge and they are expanding government in the areas YOU like."

The head of the hammer just met the head of the nail. The GOP is more about GOP control that it is about what were GOP principles. Look at all those who will still vote for W even if (as promised) he signs the clinton-feinstein-schumer AWB. They'd rather be screwed by their own man than fight him AND the dems on principle.

Just as a girl who doesn't say 'no' to her (less than) gentlemen friends, continually gets used, so do these GOP bots who won't stand up to the party. Until the rank and file stand firmly for principle, they will continue to get used (hard and put away wet).

37 posted on 04/28/2003 8:38:26 AM PDT by Badray (They all seem normal until you get to know them.)
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To: asneditor
Libertarians want big goverment? Who'd a thunk it, they have something in common with Republicans after all.
38 posted on 04/28/2003 8:39:47 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: Wolfie
LOL Right!!!!!!!
39 posted on 04/28/2003 8:45:53 AM PDT by asneditor (A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away)
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To: asneditor
Could be, but more likely shes just lonely, and wants some 'attention'.
40 posted on 04/28/2003 8:53:15 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Badray
"If you don't stand for something, you WILL fall for anything...."
41 posted on 04/28/2003 8:53:19 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Shooter 2.5
"If all the gunowners in all the states moved to a single state, their voice in government would be limited to two senators and a handful of congressman."

Take a good look at what you just typed. Those words show just what a lifetime of brainwashing can do. You have evidently forgotten about local government, from cities and counties to the state level.

I've signed up for the FSP because I truly believe it's a last-gasp effort to avoid armed rebellion, but I'm not so starry-eyed as to believe it'll work. I hope it does, because the alternative is too terrible to even contemplate. But no one in the FSP has any intention of changing the makeup of congress by altering the voting pattern of a single state. What we do think we could do though is change the way one particular state does business.  If we were successful in that, perhaps the neighboring states would see the improvement and copy some of the new ways. If enough states follow the lead... Well, maybe we could change congress-- eventually.

42 posted on 04/28/2003 8:54:20 AM PDT by oldfart
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To: NorthGA
Bullsh!t. The NRA took a neutral stand

This is from the Georgia gun group's website:

Meanwhile, the NRA is still on the sidelines. They're scared anti-gunners will claim they're against children. The NRA lobbyist told the House Judiciary Committee the NRA is neither for the bill nor against it. Of course anti-gunners are saying "the NRA is not opposed to HB197" which is only half the truth.

I would suggest you quit lying about the NRA and pay more attention to the workings of your own group.

43 posted on 04/28/2003 8:57:22 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Shooter 2.5
They're scared...

What are they afraid of? A bunch of liberal whining scumbags? Has the NRA lost all of its balls now?

44 posted on 04/28/2003 9:03:54 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Dead Corpse
Right again.
45 posted on 04/28/2003 9:07:51 AM PDT by Badray (They all seem normal until you get to know them.)
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To: annyokie
Otherwise, they are all for Big Government having mondo control over our lives.

Examples?
46 posted on 04/28/2003 9:09:36 AM PDT by jmc813 (The average citizen in Baghdad,right now, has more firearm rights than anyone in our country.)
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To: Dead Corpse
? Why are so many people on FR so dead set against it all?

Libertarian principles are great. The idea of a Libertarian party is great.

The problem is that the Libertarian party usually ends up running whackjob candidates that can spend four hours praising drug abuse and kinky sex and 30 seconds talking about gun and property rights, to illustrate by hyperbole.

By the time they are done talking they make it sound like the Libertarian party wants federally funded drugs and hookers for every family.

Now I know that isn't what libertarianism is about, but after a while you get tired of defending people against their own words.

47 posted on 04/28/2003 9:12:20 AM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: oldfart
I can assure you that I am not brainwashed. I asked a simple question as to why a single state would have more influence over the country.

If you really want to influence people without leaving your homes and towns, I think I have a better idea. Take all the money that it would have been used to uproot yourselves and leaving your jobs and buy the following newspapers, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The L.A. Times and the Chicago Tribune. Remember, it's not necessary to buy the entire newspaper, just the controlling interest.
48 posted on 04/28/2003 9:15:31 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Dead Corpse
No, they aren't afraid. I included the entire quote from the CSG which is an affiliate of, [drum roll, please] you guess it, THE GOA.
49 posted on 04/28/2003 9:19:18 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Shooter 2.5
(trying to get my act together) I have a friend who is a representative in the GA house. I have also called NRA ILA (as I am a long-time member).

The ILA said they had no knowledge of the bill on the several times I called to ask the NRA's position during this process.

I have a friend who is a legislator in the GA House. From his comments, the NRA lobby has helped actively oppose amendments that would exempt firearms from this bill.

I guess I have a quandry - who to believe. A legislator on the floor or the position you represent?

I once shared your opinion that they were nautral. But why are they nautral? Why not help craft better legislation that will protect gun owners?

50 posted on 04/28/2003 9:22:44 AM PDT by NorthGA
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