Transcript of the ZOA National President Klein interview with the Australian Broadcasting Company

Zionist Organization of America ^ | April 13, 2003

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Transcript of the ZOA National President Morton A. Klein
interview with the Australian Broadcasting Company,
April 13, 2003.

    Stephen Crittenden: Ofira Seliktar. And her book Divided We Stand: American Jews, Israel and the Peace Process is published by Praegar.

    Morton Klein is President of the Zionist Organisation of America, the most forceful spokesman for the right wing of American Jewry. He was once described as "the attack dog of the thought police", and he figures prominently in Ofira Seliktar's book. How does he react to the claim that groups like Z.O.A. contributed to undermining the Middle East peace process?

    Morton Klein: Well it's nonsense. We didn't undermine the peace process. All we did was expose the fact that Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian authority continue to promote murder and hatred of Israelis in their speeches, in their textbooks, in their sermons, in their children's camps, in the TV, radio, newspapers, from day one of Oslo. They were supposed to stop the promotion of hatred and murder, that was explicitly stated in the Oslo Accord. They are supposed to have arrested the terrorists, they almost never did that. They were supposed to have outlawed Hamas, Islamic Jihad, they didn't do it. They were supposed to have got rid of the illegal weapons, and create an atmosphere, educating the people for peace. Nobody could undermine a process if Arafat and the Palestinian authority were promoting peace, it was they and their actions that destroyed the peace. It was the fact that the Palestinian authority made it clear that they didn't accept Israel's right to exist. That's why this didn't work. It had nothing to do with us, all we did was expose that truth, and make it clear to the members of the House and Senate what the Palestinian authority was doing. So the word "undermine" is really an inappropriate term to use.

    Stephen Crittenden: But what about Ofira Seliktar's argument that conservative Jewish groups in America undermined the policies of the elected government of Israel through their lobbying on Capitol Hill, and diverted donations away from mainstream charities towards funding the settlements on the West Bank?

    Morton Klein: Again, those issues, there was not a single Jewish community built since Oslo began, not a single new community. Yet the Arabs have been building dozens and dozens of brand new Arab settlements throughout Judea and Samaria. But the issue was never whether or not Israel was building communities in Judea and Samaria. Do you realise that the Israelis only comprise two per cent of Judea and Samaria, what's known as the West Bank? Two per cent of the West Bank is where the Israelis live. Ninety eight per cent of the West Bank there are no Israelis. Forty two per cent of the West Bank are where the Arabs live. So this is not an issue. Whether Israel expanded communities or not is irrelevant. It's very clear: if the Palestinian authority arrested terrorists, outlawed terrorist groups, promoted peace and a positive relationship between Israel and the Palestinian authority, we would have peace today. Things would have worked out. It had nothing to do with what Israel did, it had everything to do with what the Palestinian authority did. So this is simply wrong to look at any other issue.

    Stephen Crittenden: But aren't we likely to see renewed pressure over the settlements in the wake of the war in Iraq? I mean, only this week we've seen Ariel Sharon coming out to say he'd be prepared to walk away from the settlements under certain conditions.

    Morton Klein: You keep talking about settlements. You must understand, if I may, before 1968 when there was not a single settlement, the Arabs launched three wars against Israel: 1948, 56 and 67. There was constant terrorism between 48 and 68, there wasn't a single settlement, and the Arabs controlled East Jerusalem, and the Sinai and the Golan and all of the West Bank and Gaza. The issue is not settlements; you keep talking about settlements.

    Stephen Crittenden: I'm making the point that Ariel Sharon himself has indicated in the press this week -

    Morton Klein: He hasn't - he has said -

    Stephen Crittenden: - that the settlements are indeed an issue he's willing to talk about.

    Morton Klein: He has said that if the Palestinian authority ends the promotion of hatred and violence in their culture - meaning, again, their textbooks and media and speeches and children's camps - and if they arrest terrorists, and get rid of the terrorist groups, and if terrorism really ends for a significant period of time, then he would be willing to talk about other issues. But other issues don't matter until that happens. That's what the issue is.

    Stephen Crittenden: To what extent are Sharon and Arafat both dinosaurs who should be enjoying their superannuation, which they've certainly earned?

    Morton Klein: Oh my goodness, how on earth, sir, do you ever compare a man who was a terrorist his entire life, Yasser Arafat - who murdered two ambassadors, a US Ambassador to Sudan, and continues to order the murder of people, and pays families to have their children kill innocent Israelis - to Ariel Sharon, who was a General in the Israeli Army, and fought in wars that the Arabs began, in 1948, 56 and 67. There's no comparison. This is really, now, it's almost, it's an outrageous analogy.

    Stephen Crittenden: Well, let's go back to 1967. Hasn't a change come over Israel since the 1967 war? I wonder whether the success of that war didn't energise the whole nation and introduce a kind of a messianic tendency that hadn't been there before. You know, I was in Israel a few years ago, and was sort of struck by how remorseless and bitter the whole project had become. And I wonder whether Begin and Sharon perhaps are the logical development points of Zionism, you get this kind of remorseless bitter militarised State. Where's the humanistic tradition of the Jews of Europe? What's happened to that?

    Morton Klein: My goodness, what are you asking me here? The Arabs are murdering Jews almost every single day, so the Jews are forced to defend themselves, because they're being murdered by suicide bombers every day. You know, I just met with the head of the Shin Bet in Israel only a few weeks ago. He told me they're stopping twelve suicide bombings a day - not a week, not a month, a day! And you're telling me Israel is becoming militaristic? If the Arabs weren't murdering Jews and promoting hatred and murder, the Israeli Army would be reduced, there would be less Israeli soldiers, they wouldn't be as concerned about trying to defend themselves. It is the Arabs that cause this concern in the Israeli population. It has nothing to do with the way the Israelis are, it's the fact that the Arabs launched four wars against Israel from 1948 to 73, and then in 82 the Lebanon problem, with constant murder of Jews in Northern Israel from Lebanon, and now it's constant suicide bombings. The militaristic terrorist society is on the Arab side, not the Israeli side. The Israeli side is ready in a minute to make concessions for real peace, but not make concessions to a terrorist regime who wants to destroy Israel. That's what the whole issue is.

    Stephen Crittenden: Well, just returning to Ofira Seliktar's book, she describes how American Jews are divided over the peace process, and the extent to which there's a process of demographic change going on, as younger Jews become more and more integrated into mainstream American society, and less and less attached to Israel. How conscious have you been over the past ten years or so that you were actually fighting against time?

    Morton Klein: Well, I must say younger Jews - all the surveys show this here in America - are becoming more conservative. The Jews in America, maybe throughout the world, tend to be quite liberal politically, and yet we're finding a dramatic transformation that Jews in America under thirty-five are more and more voting Republican, as opposed to liberal Democrat. And conservative Jews tend to be much more aligned with Israel and with Israeli security than liberal Jews. So no, I find quite the opposite.

    Stephen Crittenden: Is that a long-term trend, or is it more related to September 11 and the second intifada?

    Morton Klein: No, no, no, no, this is a trend that's been going on for many years now, that younger Jews are becoming more conservative. And also there's been a dramatic increase in the number of religious Jews, observant Jews, and those Jews also tend to be more conservative. So no, I would not agree with Ofira Seliktar in this. I think Jews are actually becoming more closely aligned to Israel, and becoming more strongly supportive of policies that demand that the Arabs transform their culture before there's any hint of a concession. So I really don't think that that is accurate.

    Stephen Crittenden: Finally, can we just come back to what happens after the Iraq War? Is Tony Blair likely to push very vigorously now for a Palestinian state, and does he now have the leverage to do that?

    Morton Klein: Well first off, this Palestinian state issue, I mean Tony Blair and others speak as if you create a new terror state under Abu Mazen and Yasser Arafat, that will resolve things. That will only be a new terror state, will only strengthen this underlying policy of promoting hatred and murder and terrorism. So this will be a tragic mistake, if they move rapidly forward to try to create a state. It will just be another terrorist state.

    Stephen Crittenden: Nonetheless, how serious do you think Tony Blair is about doing that?

    Morton Klein: I think he's very serious, I think he's very wrong. He and Jack Straw have made a serious mistake here, by really sending a message of rewarding terrorism. They're sending a message to reward this two-and-a-half years of terrorism by the Palestinian Arabs against Israelis with a state - this is the wrong message, it's a mistake and it won't work. And I don't believe it'll happen.

    Stephen Crittenden: And will they be resisted by the Bush regime?

    Morton Klein: I think - look, I know, I'll tell you - we're on Capitol Hill every day, my organisation. Members of the House and Senate are extremely reluctant - in fact they're against any unilateral concessions by Israel to the Palestinian Arabs, until they've ended terrorism and ended incitement. Before that happens, Congress is against any concessions. And I think Bush is going to have to withdraw any significant pressures to have unilateral concessions by Israel, until there's a transformation of this terroristic culture. So it will not work, and I don't believe it'll happen, even though Bush will attempt to. Congress will stop it, Israel will not concede unilateral concessions to a terrorist regime, and Blair's going to have to back off.

    Stephen Crittenden: Thank you very much for appearing on the program.

    Morton Klein: Thank you.

    Stephen Crittenden: Perhaps European Jews are from Venus and Americans Jews are from Mars. Morton Klein, of the Zionist Organisation of America.

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    The Zionist Organization of America, founded in 1897, is the oldest pro-Israel organization in the United States. The ZOA works to strengthen U.S.-Israel relations, educates the American public and Congress about the dangers that Israel faces, and combats anti-Israel bias in the media and on college campuses. Its past presidents have included Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis and Rabbi Dr. Abba Hillel Silver.