Posted on 04/28/2003 6:00:09 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
A METAL drum found in Iraq that initially tested positive for a nerve agent could in fact contain rocket fuel, a US expert has said. Further tests on the tan 209-litre drum were expected in the coming days, said Lieutenant Colonel Valentin Novikov. Initial tests showed that the contents of the barrel tested positive for the nerve agent cyclosarin and a blister agent that could be a precursor of mustard gas. But, by design, initial test procedures favour positive readings, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers.
Two teams of experts were brought in at the weekend for additional testing at the site near Baiji. One team conducted three tests, which "were not totally conclusive", Novikov said. The second team, a specialist Mobile Exploitation Team, "suspects that it might be rocket fuel", Novikov said. That team is expected to return to the site in the coming days for further tests. "There is a chance that it could be chemical weapons, but we don't know for sure," Novikov said, speaking outside of the 4th Infantry headquarters, a former palace in Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. The barrel was found in a field of rolling hills punctuated by mounds of earth that hid missiles and tubes filled with missile parts. US special operations soldiers were suspicious of two clusters that held a total of 14 barrels in the area and did an initial test on one barrel, which indicated the possible presence of blister agents. Suspicions apparently were raised by the presence of two unmarked vans near the barrels. Inside the vans were three cylinders for mixing liquids and a dosage chart in English and Russian. Green camouflage netting was draped across the front of one of the vans. Near the site was a low, brown sandstone building that had 150 gas masks of a higher quality that those usually used by Iraqi soldiers. Soldiers at first suspected that the van was a chemical warfare laboratory. Novikov said, however, that "it could be" a rocket fuel mixing station. The initial tests were conducted last week by chemical warfare experts with the 1st Squadron of the 10th Cavalry Regiment. All three of their tests pointed to nerve or blister agents. There have been numerous false reports that coalition forces have turned up chemical or biological weapons in Iraq.
Two mobile chemical laboratories found nearby might also have been used for mixing the fuel and not making banned weapons, the chief chemical weapons officer of the 4th Infantry Division added.
The Associated Press
Tests Cast Doubt on Chemical Find in Iraq
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Today: April 28, 2003 at 17:51:27 PDT
BAIJI, Iraq (AP) -
A metal drum found in northern Iraq that initially tested positive for nerve and blister agents might instead contain rocket fuel, according to new tests, a U.S. chemical weapons expert said Monday.
More tests were planned in the coming days on the 55-gallon drum, said Lt. Col. Valentin Novikov, the chief chemical weapons officer of the 4th Infantry Division, the unit which found the site.
Novikov's comments raised the prospect that the discovery was the latest in a series of false alarms as U.S. troops try to find the remains of Saddam Hussein's suspected programs for biological, chemical and nuclear weapons.
The suspicious barrel was among 14 barrels found in an open field near the Tigris River town of Baiji, among mounds of earth that hid missiles and missile parts. U.S. troops performed an initial test and found indications the barrel may contain the nerve agent cyclosarin and a blister agent that could be a precursor of mustard gas.
By design, initial test procedures favor positive readings, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers.
Two teams of experts were brought in this weekend for additional testing.
One team conducted three tests, but the tests "were not totally conclusive," Novikov said.
The second team, a specialist Mobile Exploitation Team, "suspects that it might be rocket fuel," Novikov said.
That team is expected to return to the site in the coming days for further tests.
"There is a chance that it could be chemical weapons, but we don't know for sure," Novikov said, speaking outside of the 4th Infantry headquarters, a former palace in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, near Baiji.
Also found at the site were two unmarked vans that soldiers first suspected to be mobile chemical laboratories. Inside the vans were three cylinders for mixing liquids and a dosage chart in English and Russian. Green camouflage netting was draped across the front of one of the vans.
Novikov, however, said the vans "could be" a rocket fuel mixing station.
Near the site was a low, brown sandstone building that had 150 gas masks that are of a higher quality that those usually used by Iraqi soldiers.
The initial tests on the barrel were conducted late Friday by Lt. Valerie Phipps and Pfc. Jeremy McCullough, chemical warfare experts with the 1st Squadron of the 10th Cavalry Regiment.
All three of their tests pointed to nerve or blister agents. Afterward, Phipps and McCullough left the area and burned their chemical warfare suits for fear that they were contaminated.
There have been numerous false reports that coalition forces have turned up chemical or biological weapons.
Mustard agent burns skin, eyes and lungs, while exposure to high amounts cyclosarin may lead to loss of muscle control, twitching, paralysis, unconsciousness, convulsions, coma, and death within minutes.
Abrams tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles ringed the 1.5-square-mile field Sunday and Monday, watching for intruders. Troops had permission to shoot to kill if anyone entered the area, which was near the Tigris River about a mile outside Baiji.
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By design, initial test procedures favor positive readings, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers.
Two teams of experts were brought in this weekend for additional testing.
"They" don't say anything.
It's the media.
Makes you wonder about the skill level of these teams. Maybe bringing Blixie on a short leash might not be a bad idea.............no, scratch that.
Makes you wonder about the skill level of these teams. Maybe bringing Blixie on a short leash might not be a bad idea.............no, scratch that.
Binary nerve agents are generally mixed automatically, after the round is fired, not before loading. The reason being that you don't have a nerve agent until that mixing occurs, so it's safer for your own troops. It also makes the round more storable. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done as you describe, but just that it seems unlikely, because the additional handling under field conditions would greatly increase the danger to your own troops, not that Saddam cared about his own troops, but trained chemical troops are hard to replace.
AFAIK, pesticides are not "precursers" to chemical weapons, but rather are related compounds, as I understand it. I'm sure there is a chemist or three about that could illuminate that aspect further.
Check out this :
The nurseries can't afford pesticides, but every barrel we find in the country is full of them.
CO do you know some of the chemistry that might be involved with these finds as described... Or perhaps someone on the board who knows some chemistry?
We need some help here!
If they are related compounds, than the preliminary tests could give false positives for chemical weapons, as has been reported. On the other hand, what if some related pesticide was mixed in with the chemical agents? When tested, it shows as a pesticide and could produce a matrix interference that would mask the presence of other chemicals at lower concentrations. This is quite common when testing for environmental chemicals -- an example is benzene and MTBE from a gasoline spill. The MTBE is much more soluble and masks the lower concentration of benzene. Now, if the pesticide does not adversely affect the nerve agent mixed with it, the latter could be overlooked.
What bothers me is that the "pesticide" barrels we have found in several places were stored in heavily fortified and guarded facilities. Unless they were to be used to kill the aphids on the roses in Saddam's garden, he had some other use planned for them.
(Aside -- gotta bug out for the evening, catch the rest of this in the morning!)
"What bothers me is that the "pesticide" barrels we have found in several places were stored in heavily fortified and guarded facilities. Unless they were to be used to kill the aphids on the roses in Saddam's garden, he had some other use planned for them."
Thoughts worth mulling over.
UDMH is an amine fuel, similar to hydrazine (N2H4) and MMH (monomethyl hydrazine). All are toxic, and all are to some degree carcinogenic. They can be distinguished by a 'rotting fish' smell. In fact, the reason old fish smell the way they do is that bacterial action generates amines in the fish's flesh.
NTO (N2O2) and its cousins are powerful oxidizers, similar (but more active) to Nitric Acid. They are typically brown or orange in color and are toxic due to their strong oxidizing properties. They can cause burns and blisters, and inhaling NTO vapor is a good way to destroy your respiratory system. In the U.S. there have been a few releases of BFRCs (Big F****** Red Clouds) which endanger anyone who is unfortunate enough to be inside the cloud.
"Rocket fuel" is usually a misnomer. Rockets use fuel and oxidizer. Together these are generally known as "propellants".
--Boris
Damn good question!
It is possible that these merely supplies of insecticide, to make areas safe for their troops. Insecticide is needed in Iraq, anywhere near the rivers, as there are masses of mosquitoes carrying malaria. Also, pesticides are used freely in agriculture, and were also used by the Iraqi army when persecuting the Marsh Arabs and clearing their areas - similar to agent orange in Vietnam.
Their track record on preliminary findings of "suspected WMDs" has been so bad that I'm beginning to wonder if they might actually be doing this on purpose.
Perhaps to make themselves look so stupid and inept and even desperate to find something... that when they do actually find something...nobody would believe these klutzes could have planted it.
From the article!
Something isn't right. I don't know a darn thing about chemical weapons, but the circumstances surrounding each of these reports always seem to support some type WMD activity. As an example, was there ever an explanation why the vehicles were "parked" under the sand? Would a tyrant who failed to train or adequately pay and feed his troops really stockpile pesticides for their lodging comfort?
Clues always come from the left. They are beating the drums about the morality of this war resting on the discovery of WMD. There are many who have a vested interest in making sure the US doesn't find them. Even though I don't recall, for example, France or Russia saying these weapons didn't exist, if they aren't found then who saves face and remains credible as the counter balance to the US?
From the article!
Of course it makes sense to err on the side of caution...but in all these cases the substances were still dangerous and toxic substances..even if they weren't WMDs.
I mean it's not like the guys are going to feel like barrels of insecticides or rocket fuel don't have to be handled as HAZMATS.
I never heard anything more about it, but from the way things are going, I figure its safe to assume that was a false positive as well (not that I ever expected that we would find plutonium in Iraq in the first place).
Then when we really have the facts nailed down we NAIL the leftists!
Agent Orange was a herbicide, like RoundUp, not a pesticide, like malithion or DDT.
Remember too that the reports, at least two of them but I think more, also said blister agents were indicated. What agricultural purpose to blister agents. (Mustand and/or Lewisite) have?
Well, that would make a good pesiticide, including against two legged pests. It's nasty stuff, very corrosive and would not make a good chemical weapon, because handling it so difficult. So difficult (and environmentally unfriendly too) that we stopped using it, or something very similar, over a decade ago in military rockets/missles, other than those used for space launches. Even then, only the Titan II used it, and there were only 54 Titan II silos in the whole country for at least a couple of decades, and at least a couple of those blew up when the missles were damaged during routine maintainence. One of those explosions resulted in the warhead ending up a few hundred yards from the silo. The Titan II warhead was the largest fitted to any US ICBM. Kinda forget how big, 10 Megatons or thereabouts, maybe as much as 20?
In former US and I belive Soviet,systems, a binary weapon was one in which the precursors were not mixed until the weapon was fired or the bomb dropped. Howeer I found this at: e-medicine
Iraq declares to the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) a different binary munition concept. The projectiles would contain only 1 canister with a single precursor. Before use, the munition would be opened, and the second precursor would be added. The chemical reaction then starts just prior to the munition release.
Along with this description of "normal" binary weapons:
The binary projectile contains 2 separate, hermetically sealed, plastic-lined containers fitted one behind the other in the body of the projectile. In the sarin (GB) binary weapon, the forward canister contains methylphosphonic difluoride (DF). The rear canister contains isopropyl alcohol and isopropylamine solution (OPA). Only the forward canister is in the munition prior to use. Before firing, the rear canister is added and the fuse is placed. The launching forces cause the canisters to break, thus producing GB within the projectile.
One of the "precursers" is 100% alcohol, a very dual use item, the other is some
A little too quick on the "post" button.
Also, any vehicle powered by my employer's competition is by definition 'obsolete'.
--Boris
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