Investigators interview Marine about shootings (Followup article to possible war crime)

Las Vegas Review Journal ^ | 4/29/03 | Frank Curreri

[wimpycat]

A Las Vegas Marine has been interviewed about his claim that he hunted down and killed two Iraqi soldiers, but no decision has been made about whether he should be criminally investigated for a war crime, a Pentagon official said Monday.

The Naval Criminal Investigative Service is handling the preliminary inquiry into the actions of Gunnery Sgt. Gus Covarrubias, a 20-year Marine Corps veteran. Officials with the NCIS were unavailable for comment Monday.

Covarrubias, 38, was part of a firefight in Baghdad that injured him and eight others from Fox Company, 2nd Battalion, 23rd Marines.

During an interview last week, he told the Review-Journal that after the April 8 battle had ceased, he left his unit on his own and searched for the source of a grenade attack.

Covarrubias, who had suffered a concussion from one of the blasts, said he found a soldier in a nearby home with a grenade launcher next to him.

Covarrubias said he ordered the man to stop, he said, and to turn around.

"I went behind him and shot him in the back of the head," Covarrubias said. "Twice."

Covarrubias said he noticed another Iraqi soldier trying to escape and shot him, too. Then, he grabbed their identifications, a rifle and one of their berets for souvenirs.

Marine Corps Lt. Col. Stephen Kay, stationed at the Pentagon, said military officials who have interviewed Covarrubias will try to "get him to clarify" his comments "and explain exactly what he meant. ... We can't go on a news article."

Some war veterans said they would be outraged if Covarrubias faced criminal charges for the killings he described, which they said are relatively common under war conditions.

"Anybody that has ever been in a combat situation is certainly going to be supportive of this guy," said Tom Willis, a Navy SEAL who fought in the Vietnam War and earned a Purple Heart.

"The rules of war? Come on, what are you talking about? ... You've got to blow these suckers away before they kill you," Willis said. "That's a horrible fact. You've got to kill them before they come back to kill you. ... It's just the way it is."

But Willis was irked that Covarrubias went into detail about his conduct.

"He should have kept his mouth shut about it," said Willis, a Las Vegan.

Troops who fought alongside Covarrubias in Iraq also will be questioned as part of the inquiry, which could take several weeks.

"There's always a chance an individual could have embellished something, or he may have been running off at the mouth," Kay said of Covarrubias' account.

"Now, we don't assume that. We're making sure no stone is unturned."

[wimpycat]

This is a followup to a story that has been running around FR for a few days. The last thread is HERE.

I did a title search under "Marine" and "investigators" and this article didn't show up, so...hopefully, it isn't a duplicate.

[wimpycat]

.

[Paul Ross]

He made the fatal mistake...he failed in his debrief to mention that he read the perps their Miranda rights.

[wimpycat]

"There's always a chance an individual could have embellished something, or he may have been running off at the mouth," Kay said of Covarrubias' account. "Now, we don't assume that. We're making sure no stone is unturned."

They're hoping he's telling a big fat one, too.

[Poohbah]

No, he said he took the guy's beret off before shooting him.

Maybe he just didn't want to mess up his souvenir.

[Arkinsaw]

"The rules of war? Come on, what are you talking about? ... You've got to blow these suckers away before they kill you,"

Either obey the orders and rules of engagement or don't join the service. There is still an oath before God and still the concept of honor.

[samuel_adams_us]

There is no honor in war. If you don't cheat, and do everything to kill the enemy you can, you will come home in a box, if you are lucky.

[Arkinsaw]

There is no honor in war. If you don't cheat, and do everything to kill the enemy you can, you will come home in a box, if you are lucky.

BS....the vast majority of our troops in this war obeyed their orders and obeyed the rules of engagement and are going to come home just fine. Fact.

Typically, Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen behave honorably. To not do so is to become thugs just like the Iraqi Fedayeen.

[Conspiracy Guy]

Think I'll wait for the facts. Right now this sounds like the grade school excercise where the teacher whispers something to the student on the front corner who passes to the next who passes it and on.

[MEG33]

I've heard other vets on previous threads who did not approve of the action as describrd by the paper.I shall wait on the inquiry. We don't execute prisoners under our control.That is yet to be investigated.

[samuel_adams_us]

I am sure you were there the entire time and therefore you know right? Most of the men and women there didn't see hot action and since you and I weren't there we cannot speak to what really happened can we? I respect your opinion but I doubt it's based in fact.

[samuel_adams_us]

Did the iraqi surrender? If not he wasn't a prisoner.

[TexasRepublic]

Nice sentiments, but fighting from a politically correct posture may get you killed. Much of the world (many of our enemies) doesn't observe notions of "rules", "fair play", "morality", "God", "Genenva Convention", etc. -- they are like thugs that would mug and kill you in the back alley -- they fight dirty and fight for keeps. War is ugly business, and I would rather be alive and feared, instead of respected. My 2 cent's worth.

[gitmogrunt]

Good Job Gunny Covarubbias, you saved many AMERICAN MARINES, by waxing these scumbags.

The parents of the Marines you Lead and many Americans thank you.

[Arkinsaw]

I am sure you were there the entire time and therefore you know right? Most of the men and women there didn't see hot action and since you and I weren't there we cannot speak to what really happened can we? I respect your opinion but I doubt it's based in fact

You doubt that the vast majority of our Marines, sailors, soldiers and airmen obeyed their orders and obeyed the rules of engagement? You have a low opinion of their integrity apparently. I'd ask you to provide proof of this and until I get it I suspect I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Arkinsaw]

Nice sentiments, but fighting from a politically correct posture may get you killed.

Obeying orders and following the rules of engagement is not a "politically correct" posture. Its doing what you swore an oath to do. Most of our armed forces members do take that seriously.

[samuel_adams_us]

I agree with you that they followed orders, that's not what I said, I said that you would be surprised what happens in the heat of battle and that rules written in books about engagement of the enemy are only followed by those wanting to come home in a box. I guess if an Iraqi soldier was firing on your position and your C/O told you to wait until you could see the whites of your eyes you would sit there like a stump and eat lead? Are you that dumb?

[wimpycat]

Most of the men and women there didn't see hot action and since you and I weren't there we cannot speak to what really happened can we? I respect your opinion but I doubt it's based in fact.

What isn't factual about this statement?

...the vast majority of our troops in this war obeyed their orders and obeyed the rules of engagement and are going to come home just fine. Fact.

The vast majority of our troops do obey the rules of engagement. I know stuff happens. I've heard stuff about the first Gulf War from men who were there. But the fact remains that the vast majority of US troops stick to the rules. And if you don't like the concept of "rules" in war, then let's say they follow orders. They are given orders on how to deal with the enemy in certain situations and they carry them out. Gunny Sergeants also don't routinely leave their platoon without telling anyone where they are going, like this Marine said he did.

[Arkinsaw]

I guess if an Iraqi soldier was firing on your position and your C/O told you to wait until you could see the whites of your eyes you would sit there like a stump and eat lead? Are you that dumb?

And what if you disobeyed that order and caused a friendly fire incident because your commander knew that friendlies were behind the enemy position but you did not? If your sole overriding goal is personal survival then I would stay at home.

[wimpycat]

So you have no problem with this Gunny Sergeant leaving his platoon without telling anyone where he was going, without sharing with his Lieutenant his hunch about the source of the RPG fire, as he was required to do?

[RLK]

Give the lad a medal. If more people followed his example, it would take the fun out of laying ambushes.

[samuel_adams_us]

You should tell that to all the dead and buried US Marines/Army in Europe. They tried to survive, weren't given the choice to stay home. You speak from the arm of a chair do you not?

[samuel_adams_us]

BTW, if you are not focused on survival you'll come home anyway, in a box.

[samuel_adams_us]

You must be assuming that all the commanders in the Marine Corp and US Army make the right decisions all the time right? Is that why a few were fragged in Vietnam?

[Aaron0617]

We don't execute prisoners under our control.That is yet to be investigated.

My question is when our prioners under our control?

There is the situation in Nasiriya when fake surrenders lead to 9 Marine deaths.

Then with the 101rst outside Baghdad. Where one of the surrendering men held a grenande throwing it injuring two.

[Arkinsaw]

You should tell that to all the dead and buried US Marines/Army in Europe. They tried to survive, weren't given the choice to stay home. You speak from the arm of a chair do you not?

How about addressing my point instead of calling names and ignoring it. If you disobeyed that order and caused a friendly fire incident because you did not know that friendlies were behind the enemy position but your commander did.

Most Marines, soldiers, sailors, and airmen obey their orders, obey the rules of engagement, and act honorably.

[wimpycat]

"Good Job Gunny Covarubbias, you saved many AMERICAN MARINES, by waxing these scumbags."

Good job, Sergeant Abdullah Achmed Mohammed, you saved many Iraqi soldiers by waxing these scumbags! (You know, the scumbag American captured soldiers who were shown dead on al-Jazeera with bullet wounds in their foreheads.)

[samuel_adams_us]

Are you a might bit sensitive there? Can you show me one place where I call you names in that last post?

[samuel_adams_us]

I am sure the iraqis wouldn't have killed our soldiers if one marine didn't do this right?

[wimpycat]

Give the lad a medal. If more people followed his example, it would take the fun out of laying ambushes.

Tell me something. Are the Marines fond of loose cannons in their ranks--Sergeants responsible for the lives of his men, who, after the battle, when they are resting, wanders off without telling his CO or his men where he is going?

If more people followed his example, we'd have chaos in the military, not to mention throwing many of them in prison.

[Arkinsaw]

You must be assuming that all the commanders in the Marine Corp and US Army make the right decisions all the time right? Is that why a few were fragged in Vietnam?

One wonders how it would function if every private was freed to each make their own decisions on the battlefield and each felt free to disobey orders if they felt like it. Wonder if more would come home alive or more would come home dead. Wonder how many missions would be successful.

[samuel_adams_us]

Who would be prosecuting them? the UN?

[wimpycat]

Marines don't live up to Iraqi standards. Marines live up to Marine standards.

[wimpycat]

A US court martial would prosecute them. Eff the U.N.

[Arkinsaw]

Are you a might bit sensitive there? Can you show me one place where I call you names in that last post?

You should just answer the point made rather than attempting to impugn the messenger. It would go a lot smoother.

[samuel_adams_us]

Stretch the point in your direction, keep trying. As I said you speak from the chair. If it were you in his place, things might have been different. In the meantime I am happy he killed those iraqi pricks before they found a new plane to plow into an american building.

[samuel_adams_us]

These guys have no clue, believe in just war, have been watching to much TV.

[11B3]

I have no problem with the Gunny taking matters into his own hands. He did the right thing that no junior officer would have had the balls to authorize. I don't know your experience level, but hunting humans is a requisite to the infantry. You can be sure that he DID tell his chain of command that he would be in front of lines, and the LT decided to hang him out for it to cover his own ass. Sorry POS. The commissioned officers in his chain of command should be ashamed of themselves - and you can be sure the NCOs in that unit are not having anything to do with them ever again.

Good hunting Gunny.

[thatsnotnice]

My question is when our prioners under our control?

I don’t know what the military definition is. In general, the LEO version usually consists of the prisoner being searched, disarmed, and restrained. Not necessarily in that order. But after those things have been done, they’re considered to be under your control.

I don’t think the two in this article were officially “under control,” but that’s what investigations are for. I don’t think they offered (or were offered the chance) to surrender – especially the second guy.

[wimpycat]

There is the situation in Nasiriya when fake surrenders lead to 9 Marine deaths.

The Marine being investigated wasn't the victim of a fake surrender. He left his post without telling anyone where he was going, and went into the house, by himself, where he believed the RPG fire came from. He went up the stairs and opened a door and saw an Iraqi with an RPG next to him. He said he told him to stop--he said he ordered him to turn around--he said he went behind him--he said he took the black beret off the Iraqi's head--he said he shot the Iraqi twice in the back of his head.

This isn't a "heat of battle" scenario. The battle was over when this Marine left his post to go off on his own.

[samuel_adams_us]

And marines are told to do what ever it takes to win, even if it means cheating. Ask one, he'll tell you the same. A particular gun seargent named Bob Newman just announced that on the radio a few minutes ago. Turns out he is the former force recon guy who is now the foremost authority of ME terrorism in the world.

[samuel_adams_us]

Try again, there are no insults there towards you. Maybe you should try pulling up your skirt, now that was an insult, and join the mans world.

[wimpycat]

There are many combat veterans who, while sympathizing with the Gunny, know for a fact that the Gunny is in deep sh** one way or another, either for executing prisoners, leaving his post, or lying his ass off about the whole episode to a reporter.

[Arkinsaw]

Stretch the point in your direction, keep trying.

You won't respond to my first point. I see no need to alter it.

As I said you speak from the chair.

Rather than respond to the point, attack the messenger.

If it were you in his place, things might have been different.

Perhaps, depending on what really happened. If the reporters story is absolutely correct then yes they would have been different.

In the meantime I am happy he killed those iraqi pricks before they found a new plane to plow into an american building.

The article states that they were Republican Guards. Perhaps just a couple of guys who were told that their children would be killed if they didn't fight the Americans (that happened you know).

Despite your joy at their death, we don't know who they were. That probably could have been sorted out at the POW camp.

[wimpycat]

Putting aside your own feelings for a moment, and recalling your vast military and combat experience, do you realize that this Marine could be in a lot of trouble?

[Arkinsaw]

Try again, there are no insults there towards you. Maybe you should try pulling up your skirt, now that was an insult, and join the mans world.

Again, respond to the point. The insults don't bother me one bit. They don't hurt me at all in this debate.

[CapandBall]

You must be a squid. Marine Core Rules for Gunfighting

#11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

#20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

#23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

[samuel_adams_us]

Again, you are obviously weak, a peace loving whimp who would kiss the iraqi's to death instead of doing the job right. This marine did his job, he killed the enemy.

[11B3]

"Good job, Sergeant Abdullah Achmed Mohammed, you saved many Iraqi soldiers by waxing these scumbags! (You know, the scumbag American captured soldiers who were shown dead on al-Jazeera with bullet wounds in their foreheads.)" Posted by wimpycat.

There, now you've shown your true colors. STFU. Saddam's cheerleader, you make me want to puke. You call yourself an American?

[wimpycat]

There are Marines on this website who realize this is a possible war crime, and at the very least, the guy is an idiot for opening his big, fat mouth to a reporter.

Even the SEAL in this article agrees he should have kept his trap shut.