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THE "DEBATE"-- Democratic Party's Problem Transcends Its Anti-War Contingent
The New York Times; C-SPAN | 5.5.03 | Mia T

Posted on 05/05/2003 4:04:33 AM PDT by Mia T

 

 

THE "DEBATE"
Democratic Party's Problem Transcends Its Anti-War Contingent


Mia T, 5.5.03

Nine Democratic presidential candidates battled tonight over the war in Iraq and over how to provide health care insurance for all Americans, in a debate that highlighted deep fissures in the party that several candidates warned could endanger its chances of winning back the White House.

It was the first time these candidates have met in debate, and it almost instantly turned into a squabble that revealed strong -- and in one case apparently personal -- differences in this crowded field, on national security and domestic policy.

Democrats' First Presidential Debate Shows Party Fissures
NYTimes | 5/4/03 | ADAM NAGOURNEY

 

hyperlinked images of shame
copyright Mia T 2003.

by Mia T, 4.6.03

 

If Act I was a thinly veiled allegory about naked clintonism, then Act II is a parable about the plan for world domination by the Establishment, aged hippies in pinstripes all, with their infantile, solipsistic world view amazingly untouched by time.

 

Mia T, THE ALIENS

 

Al From is sounding the alarm. "Unless we convince Americans that Democrats are strong on national security," he warns his party, "Democrats will continue to lose elections."

Helloooo? That the Democrats have to be spoon-fed what should be axiomatic post-9/11 is, in and of itself, incontrovertible proof that From's advice is insufficient to solve their problem.

From's failure to fully lay out the nature of the Democrats' problem is not surprising: he is the guy who helped seal his party's fate. It was his Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) that institutionalized the proximate cause of the problem, clintonism, and legitimized its two eponymic provincial operators on the national stage. The "Third Way" and "triangulation" don't come from the same Latin root for no reason.

That "convince" is From's operative word underscores the Democrats' dilemma. Nine-eleven was transformative. It is no longer sufficient merely to convince. One must demonstrate, demonstrate convincingly, if you will… which means both in real time and historically.

When it comes to national security, Americans will no longer take any chances. Turning the turn of phrase back on itself, the era of the Placebo President is over. (Incidentally, the oft-quote out-of-context sentence fragment alluded to here transformed meaningless clinton triangulation into a meaningful if deceptive soundbite.)

Although From is loath to admit it -- the terror in his eyes belies his facile solution -- the Democratic party's problem transcends its anti-war contingent.

With a philosophy that relinquishes our national sovereignty -- and relinquishes it reflexively… and to the UN no less -- the Democratic party is, by definition, the party of national insecurity.

With policy ruled by pathologic self-interest -- witness the "Lieberman Paradigm," Kerry's "regime change" bon mot (gone bad), Edwards' and the clintons' brazen echoes thereof (or, alternatively, Pelosi's less strident wartime non-putdown putdown)… and, of course, the clincher -- eight years of the clintons' infantilism, grotesquerie and utter failure -- the Democratic party is, historically and in real time, the party of national insecurity.

The Democrats used to be able to wallpaper their national insecurity with dollars and demogoguery. But that was before 9/11.

The REAL "Living History" -- clintoplasmodial slime



Q ERTY8Either THEY are obsolete… or civilization is bump!


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; US: Arkansas; US: Illinois; US: New York; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: abuseofpower; billclinton; clinton911; clintoncorruption; clintonfailure; clintonineptitude; clintonismdead; clintons911; demobsolescence; hillaryclinton; nationalinsecurity; rapaciousleft; relics; wot
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1 posted on 05/05/2003 4:04:34 AM PDT by Mia T
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To: Mia T
Their problem is that none of them projects anything positive. It's all miserable anger. Without a happy face to cover the poison they peddle they don't stand a chance.
2 posted on 05/05/2003 4:44:46 AM PDT by ricpic
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To: Mia T
the era of the Placebo President is over
"the placebo president"--LOL. Is that yours, Mia?

Thoroughly enjoyable essay, good stuff.


3 posted on 05/05/2003 4:50:18 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: ricpic
Without a happy face to cover the poison they peddle they don't stand a chance.
Against the picture of GWB on the Lincoln, I sure hope not . . .

4 posted on 05/05/2003 4:52:18 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: Gail Wynand; looscannon; Lonesome in Massachussets; Freedom'sWorthIt; IVote2; Slyfox; Registered; ..
Unlike these president wannabes,
hillary clinton will never appear in an open, unscripted debate forum
PING!
(HILLARY CLINTON LACKS COGNITIVE CAPACITY TO LEAD
TRIES TO GET QUESTIONS IN ADVANCE. . . AGAIN)
(Kudos to O"Reilly for taking her on this weekend during an interview by Tim Russert.
He called her "ruthless and dangerous and answerable to no one.")
When will the 4th Estate finally VET this dangerous, repugnant fraud?
 

THE award for the most indefinite position has to go to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. When her press secretary, Philippe Reines, was asked her position, he sent a transcript of Mrs. Clinton's remarks last Friday on CNN and a news account of her comments on Monday during a visit to Watervliet, N.Y. (It seems that the senator, still a bit first ladylike, is reluctant to pick up the phone.)

March 6, 2003, The New York Times,
Hawks, Doves and a Flock on the Line, JOYCE PURNICK

hillary's head revisited:
hillary clinton's brain (such as it is) II

 by Mia T

The smartest woman in the world would relish "the raucous give and take of American democracy, " as Charles Kuralt once put it.

hillary clinton, by contrast, subsists on cozy clintonoid interviews of the Colmes kind...

In her new book, Political Fictions, Joan Didion indicts the fakery of access journalism practiced by vacant politicos like the clintons, whom she sees as "purveyors of fables of their own making, or worse, fables conceived by political strategists with designs on votes, not news."

(More Didion: "No one who ever passed through an American public high school could have watched William Jefferson Clinton running for office in 1992 and failed to recognize the familiar predatory sexuality of the provincial adolescent.")

THE HILLARY, YOU KNOW, CLINTON TRANSCRIPT:
Analyzed and Annotated
 

by Mia T
January 22, 2002

 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE [YOU KNOW] 'UPDATED'

 

 

ABSTRACT

Background:

Using internal polling, the clinton 'infrastructure' determined that its cozy-clintonoid-interviews-of-the-Colmes/King-kind-scheme is no longer working. The scheme, which successfully shepherded and shielded the vacuous, inept, corrupt clintons for nine years, is now, post-9/11, yielding diminishing returns--and worse--increasing ridicule.

Hence, we had the clinton 'infrastructure' interviewer recalculation last week that specified more interviewer gravitas...and less lapdog...but not more doggedness...that is to say...that specified Jeff Greenfield.

A miscalculation, as it turned out. Greenfield made up in contempt what he lacked in inexorability. Although he conducted the entire interview circumambulating on eggshells, Greenfield did eventually ask the hard-boiled questions...

ASIDE: The tough questioning was followed by Greenfield's sudden, post-interview departure from CNN, a development which will only further reinforce cozy-clintonoid-interviews-of-the-Colmes/King-kind 4th-estate malfeasance.
 

Analysis:

Greenfield's circuitous path to clinton depravity and failure necessitates a nonlinear analysis of the data; we will use a (nonlinear) least squares curve fitter. Proportional hazards political survival regression analysis will generate a political survival curve for hillary clinton, which will show her viability (so to speak) over time.

Political survival time is defined as the length of the interval between the initial political trial balloon and political moribundity. Political moribundity is defined as two consecutive political failures--(one in the case of 9/11), or three not-necessarily-consecutive boo-filled public appearances, or one instance of a serious proposal generating laughter.

ASIDE: Since by any of these standards, hillary clinton is already flatlined, the more interesting question for this analysis would be: "What the hell is this moribund loser doing in the political arena, anyway?"

Survival is influenced by one or more factors, called "predictors" or "covariates", which may be categorical (such as the quality of 'infrastructure') or continuous (such as intellect or eloquence or character).

Results:

  • clinton rigor mortis rendered any discussion of clinton moribundity moot.
  • Nonetheless, one of the more significant continuous predictors of political moribundity is clinton's tic-like insertion of "you know," a marker for ineloquence, vulgarity, ignorance, rube-meets-valley-girl demographics, low self-esteem, anxiety and insincerity.
  • clinton uttered "you know" 52 times. Greenfield eventually caught the bug and uttered six "you knows," himself--a cautionary tale for wannabe clintonoid lapdogs.
  • Frequency of clinton "you knows" varied directly with intensity of Greenfield contempt and inversely with magnitude of Greenfield softballs.
  • clinton response is consistent with Rubin complicity in a clinton coup. See "The Daschle Scheme".

GREENFIELD: Tonight, a conversation with Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on the nation and the world after September 11, on GREENFIELD AT LARGE.

THE COMPLETE ANNOTATED INTERVIEW (NB: a very long, you know, download because of the, you know, clinton criminal, you know, redundancy.)

"I have no infrastructure to deal with this."

bill clinton 

One of the unintended consequences of America's rejection of mandated political correctness is that legends crumble.

The classic case is that of Bill Clinton. The conventional wisdom has been (even from his critics) that notwithstanding policy and philosophy disagreements Bill Clinton was/is a smart, charming, even brilliant man.

The reality that is becoming increasingly clear to those willing to see is that "The President Clinton Package" and his team of advisers, managers, and spin doctors, were smart, charming and at times brilliant. However, left to his own devices and without the support, advice, counsel and coercive powers of office, Bill is (for the second time in two months) emphatically demonstrating he ain't all that smart.

Bill's big yap:
Geoff Metcalf slams Clinton's foot-in-mouth sophistry

PUFFY-faced polemicist Christopher "Hellbound" Hitchens claims Bill Clinton is a "lousy crook."

... He rips into jokes about President Bush's intellect as "another liberal snig that annoys me a lot these days," adding, "The fact has to be faced: the intellectual candlepower of this administration is a great deal brighter than the Clinton administration . . . [and] the level of professionalism is very much higher."

hitchens on the clintons

YOO-HOO Mrs. clinton
A '68 Mustang is not exculpatory

 

by Mia T, 1-29-03

 

 

 HALF A HOUSE, HALF A BRAIN: Why the clintons hit on Simon & Schuster

 
 

Mindless rhinestone-studded-and-tented kleptocracy

by Mia T

John Podhoretz recently asked, "Whence comes hillary clinton's reputation for brilliance?" For the answer, he intuitively, rather brilliantly in fact, looked to her anatomy and noted,"This isn't the first time she's shot herself in the foot." 

 

The above anatomical analysis supports the Podhoretz thesis. Notwithstanding The Pod's erroneous conclusions concerning hillary clinton's heart and nerve, he basically has it right. Anatomy is destiny...

Ian Hunter recently observed that our leaders are shrinking. "From a Churchill (or, for that matter, a Margaret Thatcher) to a Tony Blair; from Eisenhower to Clinton; from Diefenbaker to Joe Clark; from Trudeau to Chretien -- we seem destined to be governed by pygmies."

The pols understand their anatomical limitations well; they attempt to mitigate them with veneer. And so we suffer mindless alpha-beta-beelzebubba grotesquerie. . . 

 
and rhinestone-studded-and-tented kleptocracy.
 
 

With all the media genuflecting before the press-conference podium of bill clinton, it bears remarking yet again that the clinton intellect (an oxymoron even more jarring than AlGoreRhythm and meant to encompass the cognitive ability of both clintons) is remarkable only for its utter ordinariness, its lack of creative spark, its lack of analytic precision, its lack of depth.

The clintons' fundamental error: They are too arrogant and dim-witted to understand that the demagogic process in this fiberoptic age isn't about counting spun heads; it's about not discounting circumambient brains.

Politicos and reporters are not rocket scientists . . .

Professions tend to be self-selected, intellectually homogeneous subgroups of Homo sapiens. Great intellects (especially these days) do not generally gravitate towards careers in the media or politics. Mediocre, power-obsessed types with poor self-images do.

Thus, clinton mediocrity goes undetected primarily because of media mediocrity. ("Mediocrity" and "media" don't come from the same Latin root (medius) for no reason.) Insofar as the clintons are concerned, the media confuse form with substance, smoothness with coherence, data-spewing with ratiocination, pre-programmed recitation with real-time analysis, an idiosyncratic degeneracy with creativity.

Jimmy Breslin agrees. In Hillary Is the 'Me-First' Lady, Breslin laments:

"At the end of all these years and years that are being celebrated this week, the national press of America consists of people with dried minds and weak backbones and the pack of them can't utter a new phrase for the language or show the least bit of anger at a business or profession or trade or whatever this business is that is dying of mediocrity."

Listen carefully to the clintons. You will hear a shallow parody of the class president. Not only do they say nothing; they say nothing with superfluous ineloquence. Their speeches are sophomoric, shopworn, shallow, specious. Platitudinous pandering piled atop p.c. cliché

In seven years, they have, collectively, uttered not one memorable word save, "It was a vast right-wing conspiracy," "I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky,"and, "It all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."

Even the clintons' attempts at alliteration fall flat. Compare Agnew's (Safire's) "nattering nabobs of negativism" with clinton's "preachers of pessimism," an impotent, one-dimensional, plagiaristic echo (its apt self-descriptiveness notwithstanding).

Before they destroy their backs along with their reputations, media gentry genuflecting at the altar of the clinton brain should consider Edith Efron's, Can the President Think?

A wasted brain is a terrible thing.

ALSO:
HILLARY CLINTON LACKS COGNITIVE CAPACITY TO LEAD
TRIES TO GET QUESTIONS IN ADVANCE. . . AGAIN
When will the 4th Estate finally VET this dangerous, repugnant fraud?

(Kudos to O"Reilly for taking her on this weekend during an interview by Tim Russert. He called her "ruthless and dangerous and answerable to no one.")


5 posted on 05/05/2003 4:52:59 AM PDT by Mia T (SCUM (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations))
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
thx. ;)
It's a very early peice.
6 posted on 05/05/2003 4:54:05 AM PDT by Mia T (SCUM (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations))
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To: Mia T
Was reading over the weekend that Hitlery's numbers have plummeted in upstate NY. Seems she hasn't delivered on all those campaign promises she made. Now, my question is this: what sane, thinking person would ever believe a word out of that b****'s mouth? Lazio lost because New Yorkers are incurable, stubborn Democrats. They will probably re-relect her anyway. We have huge work to do in the Empire State.
7 posted on 05/05/2003 5:30:32 AM PDT by Galtoid
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To: Mia T
Professions tend to be self-selected, intellectually homogeneous subgroups of Homo sapiens. Great intellects (especially these days) do not generally gravitate towards careers in the media or politics. Mediocre, power-obsessed types with poor self-images do.
. . . and liberalism/"political correctness" is the safe refuge of the mediocre. Reporters aren't going to savage a fellow mediocrity for mouthing liberal platitudes, whereas they will savage a conservative for not doing so. To be an outspoken conservative is thus to have courage (and, quite often, actual intelligence). To be an outspoken conservative is to risk being portrayed by your inferiors who buy ink by the barrel as "dumb." Even as such men of energy and accomplishment as GWB and Ronald Reagan have been.
Thus, clinton mediocrity goes undetected primarily because of media mediocrity. ("Mediocrity" and "media" don't come from the same Latin root (medius) for no reason.) Insofar as the clintons are concerned, the media confuse form with substance, smoothness with coherence, data-spewing with ratiocination, pre-programmed recitation with real-time analysis, an idiosyncratic degeneracy with creativity.
Journalists are not experts at much but being celebrities--knowing how to herd together with other journalists and avoid flame wars with others who buy ink by the barrel. Knowing, that is, how to protect their own image, to remain celebrities. They are difficult to understand primarily because it's hard to accept that such prominent people are actually as shallow as they seem.

The miracles of modern PR . . .


8 posted on 05/05/2003 6:03:15 AM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion ( <<--- Click here for further analysis . . .)
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To: Mia T
Good morning & Bttt
9 posted on 05/05/2003 7:34:02 AM PDT by firewalk (thanks for the ping)
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To: Mia T
bttt
10 posted on 05/05/2003 8:43:37 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Semper Gumby - Always flexible)
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To: Mia T
"With a philosophy that relinquishes our national sovereignty -- and relinquishes it reflexively… and to the UN no less -- the Democratic party is, by definition, the party of national insecurity."

Isn't that the truth? Great line. We should remember it, and use it....often.

11 posted on 05/05/2003 9:31:48 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: ricpic
I watched that pathetic excuse of a debate. Seems the only platform that ANY of them have is "attack the president for any imaginary thing you might be able to convince people of." What a bunch of nasty little people.
12 posted on 05/05/2003 9:34:43 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: Galtoid
"what sane, thinking person would ever believe a word out of that b****'s mouth?"

There's your problem right there. You're assuming that democRAT voters are sane and thinking people. If that were true, would they be democRATs?

13 posted on 05/05/2003 9:38:39 AM PDT by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: conservatism_IS_compassion
My original piece on clinton, written years ago, was entitled, "The Placebo President: How a Rapist can be a Policy Feminist."

And 9/11 was the sorry, inexorable endpoint of his pathological dysfunction....

 

 

 

The Real Danger of a Fake President:

Post-9/11 Reconsideration of The Placebo President
by Mia T, 1.06.02  
 
 
 In May, 1996, American diplomats were informed in a Sudanese government fax that Bin Laden was about to be expelled -- giving Washington another chance to seize him. The decision not to do so went to the very top of the White House, according to former administration sources.

They say that the clear focus of American policy was to discourage the state sponsorship of terrorism. So persuading Khartoum to expel Bin Laden was in itself counted as a clear victory. The administration was "delighted".

Bin Laden took off from Khartoum on May 18 in a chartered C-130 plane with 150 of his followers, including his wives. He was bound for Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan. On the way the plane refuelled in the Gulf state of Qatar, which has friendly relations with Washington, but he was allowed to proceed unhindered.

Barely a month later, on June 25, a 5,000lb truck bomb ripped apart the front of Khobar Towers, a US military housing complex in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. The explosion killed 19 American servicemen. Bin Laden was immediately suspected...

US missed three chances to seize Bin Laden

Just look around this chamber. We have members from virtually every racial, ethnic, and religious background. And America is stronger for it. But as we have seen, these differences all too often spark hatred and division, even here at home. . . This is not the American way. We must draw the line. Without delay, we must pass the Hate Crimes Prevention Act and the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. And we should reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act.

bill clinton, State of Union Speech, January 27, 2000

 
"I'm sorry, but the president is one of the crudest men I have ever encountered in government service," says one female agent. "He has no respect for women."

Among the comments clinton made in presence of Secret Service agents:

. Frequent speculation on the oral sex skills of women
the president saw or met in receiving lines;
. References to the size of a woman's breasts, legs or figure;
. Sexual jokes.

After the Monica Lewinsky story broke, however, clinton toned down his rhetoric and behavior in front of his Secret Service agents, but those who guarded the president say enough of them saw and heard things which could be damaging to clinton.

"It depends on who Ken Starr calls," says one ex-agent. "The people who are on the job today are not necessarily the ones who know the most."

Turnover In clinton's Secret Service Detail 'Highest That Anyone Can Remember'

 
In the months that follow, reporters drop the issue. Feminists say little or nothing. Rape crisis center workers acknowledge that Broaddrick's case, including her reluctance to come forward, is typical of victims of sexual assault. But they decline to speak against clinton. Some cite the federal funding they receive as a result of the Violence Against Women Act, which was signed into law by clinton.

Why does the press continue to ignore the Juanita Broaddrick story?

Richard Gere stunned fellow liberals Monday by suggesting that President Bush is doing a better job of fighting AIDS than President Bill Clinton did.

Introduced by Sharon Stone at a fund-raiser at Cipriani 42nd Street for the American Foundation for AIDS Research, the "Chicago" star hailed Bush for his State of the Union proposal to contribute $15 billion toward the AIDS battle in Africa and the Caribbean. Gere then addressed the track record of Bush's predecessor in the White House.

"I'm sorry, Sen. [Hillary] Clinton, but your husband did nothing about AIDS for eight years," Gere said.

GERE TAKES ON BILL, NY Daily News | 2/5/03

 
 
 
The Placebo President:
How a Rapist can be a Policy Feminist
 
placebo effect n.
A beneficial effect in a patient following a particular treatment
that arises from the patient's expectations concerning
the treatment rather than from the treatment itself.
 
Every woman adores a Fascist,
The boot in the face, the brute
Brute heart of a brute like you.
----Sylvia Plath
 
The placebo effect immediately came to mind
as I listened to Shelby Steele,
a research fellow at the Hoover Institution,
debunk the following pernicious spin intended to save clinton.
To wit:
A proven felon and utter reprobate can remain president;
clinton can be a failed human being but a good president.
 
The error in these statements arises, says Steele,
from the belief that
virtuousness is separate from personal responsibility
so that one's virtuousness as an individual is determined by
one's political positions on issues rather than on
whether or not in one's personal life there is a
consistency and a responsibility.
 
Steele's contention is that this compartmentalization,
rather than being the amazing advantage
the clintons would have us believe,
in fact, spills toxicity into, corrupts, the culture.
 
If mere identification with good policies is what makes one virtuous
then those policies become, what Steele calls, iconographic,
that is to say they just represent virtuousness.
They don't necessarily do virtuous things.
 
If clinton's semantic parsing strips meaning from our words,
clinton's iconographic policies strip meaning from our society,
systematically deconstructing our society as a democracy. . .
 
I would take Shelby Steele's thesis one step further.
I maintain that iconographic policy functions like a placebo,
producing a real, physiological and social effects.
 
The placebo effect is, after all, the brain's triumph over reality.
Expectation alone can produce powerful physiological results.
The placebo effect was, at one time, an evolutionary advantage:
act now, think later
 
bill clinton is the paradigmatic Placebo President.
Placebo is Latin for "I shall please."
And please he does
doling out sham treatments, iconographs, with abandon.
To please, to placate, to numb, to deflect.
Ultimately to showcase his imagined virtue.
Or to confute his genuine vice.
 
clinton will dispense sugar pills (or bombs)
at the drop of a high-heeled shoe...
or at the hint of high treason...
 
clinton's charlatanry mimics that of primitive medicine.
Through the 1940s, doctors had little effective medicine to offer
so they deliberately attempted to induce the placebo response.
 
The efficaciousness of today's medicines
does not diminish the power of the placebo.
A recent review of placebo-controlled studies
found that placebos and genuine treatments
are often equally effective.
If you expect to get better, you will.
 
Which brings me back to the original question:
Can clinton be a failed human being but a good president?
 
Clearly he cannot.
These two propositions are mutually exclusive.
clinton's fundamental failure is a complete lack of integrity.
He has violated his covenant with the American people.
 
Because clinton has destroyed his moral authority as a leader,
he can no longer function even as a quack;
the placebo effect is gone.
And so the Placebo President must now go, too.
 
 

 

 

September 11 changed a lot of things for me, Bill [O'Reilly]. I will say this, before September 11, I was definitely mildly myopic in terms of my political agenda. If you were Democrat you were probably right, and if you were a Republican you were probably wrong. Everything changed for me that day...

My entire worldview changed. If you would have told me September 9 that I would have been at the world series game filming George Bush throwing out the first pitch with my 6-year-old son crying, I never would have believed you, but I was. Because my whole worldview changed.

ROSIE O'DONNELL

 

14 posted on 05/05/2003 1:29:04 PM PDT by Mia T (SCUM (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations))
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To: Mia T
Mia T -- Both blessed by and the Gift of G-d!

Blessings -- B A
15 posted on 05/06/2003 1:48:22 AM PDT by Brian Allen ( Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God - Thomas Jefferson)
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: Brian Allen
thx Brian. :)
17 posted on 05/06/2003 4:29:47 AM PDT by Mia T (SCUM (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations))
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To: Mia T
Great stuff - BTT
18 posted on 05/06/2003 4:36:21 AM PDT by webster
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: webster
thx ;)
20 posted on 05/06/2003 5:46:31 AM PDT by Mia T (SCUM (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations))
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