Pakistan offers to get rid of nukes

MSNBC ^ | 5/5/03

[steveegg]

Question is, will Syria, the Palestinians, and North Korea take the same hint or will they choose suicide by Dubya?

My money's on no, no, and no.

You really should incorporate the "suicide by Dubya" into a tagline :-)

[steveegg]

Isn't the UN, in effect, its own axis of evil?

It's a root of evil.

[steveegg]

Many of India's moves in the aerospace world (satellites, cosmonauts, own-design aeroplanes) seem to be driven less by logic and more by nationalism and a desire to plant the Indian flag in places where, say, inward-looking Americans least expect it.

Diego sounds familiar, though that would actually putting it in an uncomfortable position on the Brits.

[mikeIII]

India does not trust us fully to rely on us for their protection. They play the middle ground between Russia, China and the U.S..

You may be right! It is said that Pakistan even today has more leverage with those who matter here than India does, and we have once before threatened India in favor of Pakistan (Nixon, over Bangladesh). India may be figuring that its best option is to make peace with Pakistan, keep its nukes as a hedge against China and keep its options open with Russia. Watch for France fishing in these waters soon!

[spetznaz]

You may be right! It is said that Pakistan even today has more leverage with those who matter here than India does, and we have once before threatened India in favor of Pakistan (Nixon, over Bangladesh). India may be figuring that its best option is to make peace with Pakistan

Pakistan had great leverage during the Cold War, primarily because India had alligned itself with the Soviets and hence we needed someone in 'the region' who was 'on our side.' Hence Pakistan was the only viable option (China? Hell no!). And consequently Pakistan became a 'US ally' throughout the Cold War ....not because it was a bastion of freedom and democracy but simply because we needed it in case of proxy wars and we did not give a darn about how stinky our 'bed mate' was.

Pakistan's position aftre the fall of the Soviet block plunged down faster than a lead brick as US industries clamored for India (which has the 4th largest economy in the world). India was a great market for selling stuff, as well as an even greater place for hiring talented staff (companies are still moving tech centers to India, although recently China and South Africa have also become hubs).

Pakistan was forgotten ......then 9/11 happened!

We needed Pakistan to ensure its long border with Afghanistan was policed, and hence they were our 'allies.' Again this was not because Pakistan was a node of peace and the American way but because we did not want Usama sneaking on some mule past the Kyber pass into N. Pakistan! Hence Musharaff was our pal and he even got to meet several high ranking US officials!

The irony is that many experts on the matter believe that if Usama is still alive he escaped into Pakistan, right through Pakistani hands.

Anyways Pakistan is basically an evil entity ....and a dangerous one. Jack Straw (the British foreign secretary) referred to it as the greatest single terrorist threat in the world today. The Pakistani ISI (its 'CIA) is one of the paramount sponsors of terrorism in the world, even offering Al Queda logistical support (that stopped, or went undercover, after 9/11 since they were our 'ally') as well as sending terrorists into India (still going on). And several in the Pakistani armed forces have even said they would engage a pre-emptive strike against India .....saying that even though they knew an Indian retaliation would destroy Pakistan that it was 'worth it.'

And, of course, Pakistan is a volatile Islamic country, ruled by a cabal (the ISI) with nefarious motives and terrorist links including Al Queda, and possessing several nuclear weapons! No wonder the Brits consider them a substantial threat.

Now, why have we looked the other way? Because we needed to for a myriad reasons. The Cold War and the aftermath of 9/11 were big factors .....however i doubt GW would lose sleep if (after Pakistan's use was over) the potency of Pakistan (its nukes) were to be somehow removed. The US may even say any India-Pakistan war is a 'regional affair' and not interfere (meaning they would probably give the Indians detailed info where the Pakistani silos and mobile systems are located .....although the Russians would most probably have provided India with that info already ....and the Indian RAW, their CIA, forays deep into Pakistan). Pakistan is rapidly finding itself in a predicament ......where obviously it faces a stronger neighbor (India) which is backed by an even stronger nation (Russia) and its traditional support (the US) is growing tired of Pakistan's links with 'questionable' stuff; meaning that Pakistan is only left with China on its side. BUT the Chinese are sly devils and they play their cards well, hence they would never allign themselves with Pakistan if a major schism between India-Paki arose (why would Beijing insert itself in a scenario where both Moscow and Washington would be, overtly or subtly, supporting Delhi?)

Maybe this is why Pakistan is trying to cry 'pax, peace, let's disarm.' Maybe they see they are ariving at a point where they lose all their leverage!

After all once GW is finished with the 'Rogue states' who do you think he will have a look into? Ofcourse, our 'long-time bud' Pakistan! And the Pakistani big-wigs know very well GW will not like what he finds (obviously we know what Pakistan has been up to, but once it becomes 'officially stated' ......meaning no more looking the other way and slapping wrists .....then the ramifications for Pakistan, starting with economics, would be major).

The time is coming where Pakistan may have to pay for its past trsyst with the devil, and i doubt they will be very happy!

[mikeIII]

Pakistan was forgotten ......then 9/11 happened!

You're right, there, and I hope the rest of your detailed post is the way things will pan out.

India and Pakistan have been having a low grade war for ever, a status quo, as it were. But lately our "bud" seems to be turning some of that violence our way!

[neither-nor]

Thank you. Sorry for the late reply, but I'm 10-12 hours ahead of you. So often its 4- 5 am here, or I am in the office when US Freepers post messages to me!

[anu_shr]

I think it will be a long way before Indians will ever want to give up nukes. China threat is primary - Pakistan can be taken care of with short range missiles and 5-6 nukes. The secondary threat in Indian minds is the US itself - and I think the Indians might save that for their protection - Ok lets visualise that there is a Hindu right wing government in India ( not the namby-pamby leadership it has currently ) and that has started to assert its military and economic power - at the current rate of growth - India will become the third largest economy by 2012 - and such economies will need oil and India does not have any. Will it not want to have its share of middle-east oil ? And who will be the adversary then ?

Of course the most likely scenario is that current secular democracy will continue as there is a common consensus about that in India - but even so US is the least trusted - though most admired country after Pakistan this side of the world. ( whatever be the reason - US mistrusted India as it sided with Soviet union and India thought US equated Pakistan with India as power in their attempt to be even handed - "with us or against us" ! )

[Herodotus]

The Indians developed the nuclear weapon for domestic political reasons of national self-worth, as part of the BJP Party's efforts to increase its influence once it came to power.

It was in response to htis that the Pakistanis built their weapons, thereby ratcheting up the reason for the Indians to have the weapons.

It's important to watch Richard Armitage now, who is going to the region later this week.

[IndianChief]

The Indians developed the nuclear weapon for domestic political reasons of national self-worth, as part of the BJP Party's efforts to increase its influence once it came to power.

India's first test, dubbed a "peaceful" one , was in 1974 , long before the BJP existed. It was in response to Chinas test in 1964(?), and of course the Pakistanis then started their own programme.

It's important to watch Richard Armitage now, who is going to the region later this week

Yes, it is going to very interesting.

[akash]

"The Indians developed the nuclear weapon for domestic political reasons of national self-worth, as part of the BJP Party's efforts to increase its influence once it came to power."

Exactly what do you are nuclear weapons, pretzels, or burgers, that they can be made in a minute. We developed the weapons because we live in a rough neighbourhood and have to face china and pakistan. American assurances of a nuclear umbrella do not count for much because we dont trust the US to keep its word. The US will come to the aid of India if and only if it suits American interests. So above everything it is a question of pure self interest for everybody concerned, and also nothing better than self reliance.

[bart99]

Good post..... good analysis and, I believe, accurate.

Isn't it nice for someone to read the threads 24 hours later and want to get into the discussion when everyone is gone. *L* Oh well........

France WAS a big five 50 years ago, but India has a greater population now and a more "civil" governement that, except for Pakistan bugging them, they're good citizens of the world. India should replace France on the Secuarity Council. Shame France still has over 300 nukes, that, as you suggest, will be under muslim controll in a few years..... well, you suggest more than a few, but I think within 10 easily.

Um...... we could pull all our military and intelligence folk from northeast Pakistan and let the Indians throw a few nukes out that way - just for a demo. That would take care of the remaining Taliban and Al-Queda in the area.

Oh.... shame one me. *shrug*

B.

[anu_shr]

The nukes were always there. The Indian and Pakistani secret program had been on for years. BJP only tested them again as show of defiance and national pride. The jury is still out if that was strategic blunder or not since Pakistan counter tested its weapons as well. And since stuff got out in the open - Pakistan continued its support for terrorism under an open nuclear umbrella thereby blunting India's conventional weapons superiority.

India first tested a nuke in 1974 and since then has been steadily building an arsenal. China is the rival power to India - Pakistan is a mere nuisance.

Imagine Mexico being Islamic , ruled by mad men , having nukes pointed at Washington and every major city in US and then sending suicide bombers to California and Texas every now and then and then try and build a strategy to contain Mexico. Its a lot different from dealing with Iraq.

[Pearls Before Swine]

Re your post 46: Very interesting, extended analysis. Do you play chess?

[ffusco]

Its not the big 5

Its the US and 4 wannabe's, plus the Suspect Nations like Israel and Brazil, and finally the newbies that can barely tie their own shoes.

Not only are we the only nation to use them we are the only nation civilized enough to have them, secure them safely and use them judiciously.

My deepest thanks to Japan, S. Africa and Euro's who know how to build them, but choose not to.