Posted on 05/07/2003 11:38:37 AM PDT by joesnuffy
A change of heart is the least likely outcome. IMHO, of course. I have no idea what the ultimate solution will look like.
Well, maybe. The problem is that too many groups have a stake in keeping the pot boiling. If that could be changed there might be hope. But as long as money, (but not too much, wouldn't want them to actually get comfortable) and support for this lost cause still flow there will be no peace.
Because it will be a non-democratic terrorist state much like a mini-Iraq. Jews will be totally expelled from the area and never allowed to return. Jewish holy sites will be desecrated much like the Jordanian occupation '48-'67. Please explain to me why "Jews" should be forced to give up "Judea", even though they have lived there for the past 4000 years, millenia before Arabs or Muslims even inhabited the area.
Since Arabs are the descendants of Ishmael, and Jews the descendants of Jacob, it would seem both have lived there equally long. What is your point? Germans had lived in Silesia for millenia too, and Poles in Galacia, and Serbs in Kosovo, but I don't see you campaigning to restore Silesia to Germany, or Galacia to Poland, or Kosovo to Serbia. Why not?
And why should I gave a rats patootie about Jewish Holy Sites? How many Christian Holy Sites have been desecrated by the Jews in Israel? Lots. Need we recall only last year the armed assault on the Holy Sepulchre by the IDF? You are nothing but a damned hypocrite, whining about Jewish Holy Sites. The Arabs did nothing for two millenia against Jewish Holy Sites. Its only when the Jews came in and declared independence that strife broke out between them.
...instead of Israeli military occupied territories?
OK, how about Israel just annex the territories. At least it wouldn't be occupation. Oh, and just in case you didn't know, the Arabs view all of greater Israel "occupied" as well.
If Israel were to annex the territories, she'd also have to make the Arab inhabitants citizens. Again, unless of course you are going to play Nazi and expell them. Tell us.
...to make "defensible" geographic and ethnic borders
You're right. That's so silly; why would Israel want "defensible" borders. We all know that their neighbors mean them no harm.
Germany wanted defensible borders too. Hungary wanted defensible borders but was denied them as well. So was Poland. So was Bulgaria. So was a whole litany of other countries. Most states in the world today do not have "defensible borders". What makes Israel so special?
If that's the case, I'll call you a supporter of Israeli Naziism.
You are nothing but an arrogant, ignorant demagogue. "Israeli Naziism" implies that the Jews want to exterminate all of the Palestinians. If Israel wanted to do this, they could, yet they keep sitting down at the peace table with these terrorists even though their citizens are being blown to smitherines. The Jews do not want to destroy all of the Palestinians. However the oppposite is true for the most part. That's why the Palestinian equivalent of "Sesame Street" has a suicide bomber muppet. Go back to CAIR and spout your Jew hating there.
Jew hating? That's novel. I didn't say the Israelis wanted to kill all the Palestinians, but some Israelis, and a number of their supporters and such as yourself, apparently have little compunction about driving all of them from their homes and letting die whoever dies in the act. The world stands aghast at this hubris.
If 97% is good enough, would you drink a cup of water that is 97% water and 3% rat poison?
As to the right of return, everyone has a right to live in their own home. If the Israeli's stole their home by driving them off their land in time of war (which happened to hundreds of thousands of Arabs), most of the world (maybe not Israel and her running do lackeys, though) recognizes that as a war crime which should be rectified, either by just compensation, or the return of the property and legal rights.
You Germans murdered most of Europe's Jews. We certainly aren't going to allow ourselves to make concessions which will result in the Arabs, your mirror imagine in the Middle East, to finish the job. Let Germany take the Arabs as recompense for its manifold crimes.
"You Germans"? I'm an American of 13 generations (since 1625, third to last emigree in 1770, two others in mid-1800's). I must have missed how that made me a German.
My victims? I'm 28 and born and raised in Philadelphia of very longstanding American lineage. It would be quite difficult to make a case that I was somehow responsible for Germans killing Jews. I'm open to hearing whatever deranged attempt you wish to make at this argument though. Go for it. I'm sure it will enhance your credibility here.
Nazism was simply the political manifestation of the the inherent evil in German culture. We Jews could never in a million years approach your level of inhuman barbarism.
Oh sure you could approach the barbarism of the Nazis, I'm sure it wouldn't take much either. Your Jewish kinfolks in Russia (apostates admittedly, but then most Israelis are not religious from what I have read) were quite good at barbarism when they ran the KGB and the Gulag under Lenin and Stalin. They made many millions more corpses than the Germans ever did. To do it again in Israel, all you need to do is continue down the merry path you are making for yourself in the footsteps of Kahane. Keep pushing. I'm sure you can find it within yourselves what is needed to holocaust the Arabs like you so want. The IDF has already put on a good show of it in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon and during the War for Independence in 1948.
There is a difference between the Germans and many Israelis in this regard. The Germans are contrite and disgusted with themselves for the acts of WWII. Many Israelis and their supporters, like yourself, have shown no such sorrow at what they have done to the Arabs in Palestine, just like your buddies the Turks to the north have no remorse for their holocausting the Greeks and Armenians and Assyrians and Kurds.
The undermanned British ruled their empire through ethnic and religous divide and conquer policies.
I am all for the state of Israel to exist, and is the only middle eastern country I could live in -- but saying all that I do not like that they use my tax dollars to build settlements in the occupied territories.
As for those moronic Palestinian Arabs--because of their Muslim faith they can never accept the power that non-violent Christian origin peaceful disobediance could bring to bear. Under Islam victory can only be through jihad.
In any case the Philistines and the Phoenicians are NOT one and the same. The Philistines were Indo-Europaan language speaing Greeks - not Semetic Phoenicians. See my links.
Will it make more sense than having a “country” composed of a small enclave in the west, Israel in the middle, and a landlocked area next to the Jordan River?
As the article points out, the overwhelming majority of Jornadians are Palestinians, and Egypt was the source of much of the Gaza Strip immigration. For example, Arafat's family are Egyptians who moved into "Palestine."
Treating the Middle East and the Israeli-Arab conflict like you would the ethnic squables of Europe is one of the reasons we are in this mess. The British partioning Palestine after WWI and WWII in hopes that the two parties would sit down peacefully and negotiate their land claims is why there is a problem now. Europe is not the Middle East. The Germans, Poles, and Serbs have not vowed the annialation of the other from the face of the Earth, like the Arabs have of the Jews.
How many Christian Holy Sites have been desecrated by the Jews in Israel? Lots.
Name one.
Need we recall only last year the armed assault on the Holy Sepulchre by the IDF?
No, I don't recall. But I do remember Arab terrorists holing up in the Church of the Nativity in order to hide from the IDF, who respectfully didn't storm the place for fear of harming the innocents inside. The Israelis negotiated a surrender in order to avoid harming the Church.
The Arabs did nothing for two millenia against Jewish Holy Sites.
This is nothing but delusion.
The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed by the Arab Caliph Al Hakim in 1009 AD; thankfully it was rebuilt in the 14th century. While the Holy Sanctuary has been kept open throughout the entire intifada, the Western Wall was used as a market bizarre when it was under control of the Jordanians.
If Israel were to annex the territories, she'd also have to make the Arab inhabitants citizens.
If there was peace, I don't think the Israelis would have a problem with that, seeing how 20% of Greater Israel is Arab. Oh, by the way, the Arabs living in Israel have more rights and more freedom than in any of the 21 Arab countries.
Germany, Hungary, Poland, and Bulgaria were not countries that were 9 miles wide surrounded by hundreds of millions of enemies who sought their total and complete annialation.
The world stands aghast at this hubris.
I don't give a rat's ass what the world thinks. You and your Eurotrash brethren have proven where their sympathies lie, and its not with those who respect democracy, freedom, and human rights. The rest of the world has little use and little concern for Jews. That's what drove them to try to establish a tiny strip of land where they could flee the rest of the world's maliciousness against them. If Israel and all Jews were wiped from the face of the Earth tomorrow, I'm sure a couple of your ancestors in Deutschland and Frankreich would pop a bottle of Champagne to toast the end of the "Jewish Problem".
If Arabs are so concerned about their brothers in the "occupied territories", why are Palestinians not allowed to emigrate to Arab countries? Why is Israel blamed when the Lebanese and Jordanians have killed 10 times as many Palestinians since 1967? Black September anyone?
Do you mean relatives? Ancestors are dead folks.
Anywho, I have no German or French ancestors or relatives. My family came from Switzerland - Canton Bern, up in the Swiss Alps.
The rest of the world has little use and little concern for Jews. That's what drove them to try to establish a tiny strip of land where they could flee the rest of the world's maliciousness against them.
Its a tired question. Why does the rest of the world act so malicious to the Jews, but not so unified in maliciousness towards any other group? That's your claim, perhaps you could explain it better.
I stand corrected.
My family came from Switzerland...
You don't sound neutral to me.
Why does the rest of the world act so malicious to the Jews, but not so unified in maliciousness towards any other group?
I wonder the same thing. Since you are a participant in this maliciousness, maybe you could tell me.
A queer definition, but what you appear to be tagging on me.
How is it malicious to not support either expulsion or annexation of territories with millions of Arabs who don't wish to be ruled by them?
As for neutrality, I don't support Israeli's being driven into the sea, or Arabs being driven into Jordan. That's neutral to me.
DENYING Jews something? What position are you in to deny Jews anything. I guess the ol' Isaeli governmentIDF needs to get Hermann's permission before doing anything, huh.
Quite the contrary, it is the Jews who are in the position to give or deny things.How is it malicious to not support either expulsion or annexation of territories with millions of Arabs who don't wish to be ruled by them?
Millions of Arabs live in Greater Israel. Should they succede and have their own government simply because they're Arab?
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