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Artificial Life Experiments Show How Complex Functions Can Evolve
NSF ^ | May 8, 2003 | Staff

Posted on 05/08/2003 10:11:06 AM PDT by Nebullis

Artificial Life Experiments Show How Complex Functions Can Evolve

Arlington, Va.—If the evolution of complex organisms were a road trip, then the simple country drives are what get you there. And sometimes even potholes along the way are important.

An interdisciplinary team of scientists at Michigan State University and the California Institute of Technology, with the help of powerful computers, has used a kind of artificial life, or ALife, to create a road map detailing the evolution of complex organisms, an old problem in biology.

In an article in the May 8 issue of the international journal Nature, Richard Lenski, Charles Ofria, Robert Pennock, and Christoph Adami report that the path to complex organisms is paved with a long series of simple functions, each unremarkable if viewed in isolation. "This project addresses a fundamental criticism of the theory of evolution, how complex functions arise from mutation and natural selection," said Sam Scheiner, program director in the division of environmental biology at the National Science Foundation (NSF), which funded the research through its Biocomplexity in the Environment initiative. "These simulations will help direct research on living systems and will provide understanding of the origins of biocomplexity."

Some mutations that cause damage in the short term ultimately become a positive force in the genetic pedigree of a complex organism. "The little things, they definitely count," said Lenski of Michigan State, the paper's lead author. "Our work allowed us to see how the most complex functions are built up from simpler and simpler functions. We also saw that some mutations looked like bad events when they happened, but turned out to be really important for the evolution of the population over a long period of time."

In the key phrase, "a long period of time," lies the magic of ALife. Lenski teamed up with Adami, a scientist at Caltech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Ofria, a Michigan State computer scientist, to further explore ALife.

Pennock, a Michigan State philosopher, joined the team to study an artificial world inside a computer, a world in which computer programs take the place of living organisms. These computer programs go forth and multiply, they mutate and they adapt by natural selection.

The program, called Avida, is an artificial petri dish in which organisms not only reproduce, but also perform mathematical calculations to obtain rewards. Their reward is more computer time that they can use for making copies of themselves. Avida randomly adds mutations to the copies, thus spurring natural selection and evolution. The research team watched how these "bugs" adapted and evolved in different environments inside their artificial world.

Avida is the biologist's race car - a really souped up one. To watch the evolution of most living organisms would require thousands of years – without blinking. The digital bugs evolve at lightening speed, and they leave tracks for scientists to study.

"The cool thing is that we can trace the line of descent," Lenski said. "Out of a big population of organisms you can work back to see the pivotal mutations that really mattered during the evolutionary history of the population. The human mind can't sort through so much data, but we developed a tool to find these pivotal events."

There are no missing links with this technology.

Evolutionary theory sometimes struggles to explain the most complex features of organisms. Lenski uses the human eye as an example. It's obviously used for seeing, and it has all sorts of parts - like a lens that can be focused at different distances - that make it well suited for that use. But how did something so complicated as the eye come to be?

Since Charles Darwin, biologists have concluded that such features must have arisen through lots of intermediates and, moreover, that these intermediate structures may once have served different functions from what we see today. The crystalline proteins that make up the lens of the eye, for example, are related to those that serve enzymatic functions unrelated to vision. So, the theory goes, evolution borrowed an existing protein and used it for a new function.

"Over time," Lenski said, "an old structure could be tweaked here and there to improve it for its new function, and that's a lot easier than inventing something entirely new."

That's where ALife sheds light.

"Darwinian evolution is a process that doesn't specify exactly how the evolving information is coded," says Adami, who leads the Digital Life Laboratory at Caltech. "It affects DNA and computer code in much the same way, which allows us to study evolution in this electronic medium."

Many computer scientists and engineers are now using processes based on principles of genetics and evolution to solve complex problems, design working robots, and more. Ofria says that "we can then apply these concepts when trying to decide how best to solve computational problems."

"Evolutionary design," says Pennock, "can often solve problems better than we can using our own intelligence."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ai; crevolist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: AndrewC
OOPs, I spoiled the fun.
1,701 posted on 05/21/2003 7:38:13 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
Spoiled-fun marker...
1,702 posted on 05/21/2003 7:41:51 AM PDT by general_re (When you step on the brakes, you're putting your life in your foot's hands...)
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To: general_re
Oh, the abuse! How horrible! Several science-minded freepers who ping one another to gather so they can enjoy chatting among themselves, while poking holes in some especially silly creationist arguments. Can you imagine! And they "derail" the thread by presenting links to evidence supporting evolution! Not only that (as terrible as it is) they also criticize the debate tactics of those who constantly repeat the same discredited arguments! How can this kind of thing be allowed to continue? Oh, the abuse!
1,703 posted on 05/21/2003 7:51:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: general_re
So what kind of palm does your foot's hand have? Areca or Date?
1,704 posted on 05/21/2003 8:02:12 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: PatrickHenry
Oh, the persecution!

Markplacer.

1,705 posted on 05/21/2003 8:02:57 AM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: PatrickHenry
science-minded freepers ...

you mean ---

atheist evolution-minded freepers ...

attacking conservatives !
1,706 posted on 05/21/2003 8:10:26 AM PDT by f.Christian (( apocalypsis, from Gr. apokalypsis, from apokalyptein to uncover, from apo- + kalyptein to cover))
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To: PatrickHenry
You guys gotta check out post 1688, addressed to me:

What did you expect from someone who thinks that nuclear fission is a "chemical reaction"?

1,707 posted on 05/21/2003 8:18:06 AM PDT by longshadow
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To: longshadow; PatrickHenry; gore3000
I expect them to say stupid things like, "Gould was a virulent atheist."

What makes an atheist virulent? Is it a recognized sect of the church of Darwin that we so often hear about?

Gore's posts are so devoid of truth, they are impossible to refute. The more things change...
1,708 posted on 05/21/2003 8:22:13 AM PDT by whattajoke
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To: general_re
Switching to placemarker channel XK-21-Delta - destroy obsolete codebooks and await further instructions...

Now you've done it..... how many times have you been warned at the Darwin Central Committee Secret Agent Briefings never to post comm protocol details in the clear?

;-)

1,709 posted on 05/21/2003 8:23:28 AM PDT by longshadow
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To: general_re
Do not fold, spindle, or mutilate.

"Close cover before striking...."

We now return you to the regularly scheduled encrypted message:

"John has a large moustache..... John has a large moustache......."

1,710 posted on 05/21/2003 8:26:48 AM PDT by longshadow
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To: longshadow
What did you expect from someone who thinks that nuclear fission is a "chemical reaction"?

I expect that he would attempt a campaign to drive his debate opponents from the website. Observe this one from another gentleman creationist:

The king of slime works in not-so-mysterious ways. The personal attacks [no irony there!] are one thing, but the constant thread derailments and childish bantering, along with the stomach-turning games of "slap-ass" he and his 'buddies' play are almost enough to drive people away from this forum.
1,699 posted on 05/21/2003 10:34 AM EDT by Michael_Michaelangelo
Do they seriously imagine that this makes me look bad, or that such behavior will support the cause of creation "science"?
1,711 posted on 05/21/2003 8:30:39 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: AndrewC
Now your own words prove you the liar.

Yawn. Andrew, you're clearly getting more and more shrill and strident with each passing post.

Your words ---> I think you're misreading the point being made. A transistor is "back-to-back diodes" in the sense of its internal construction at the semi-conductor level. A diode is a single PN junction:

You even put quotes around the back-to-back.

Yes I did, because I was quoting verbatim earlier uses of that phrase. Now was that so hard to figure out? Well, for you, I guess it was.

As for "in the sense", I was pointing out that we were discussing the term in the sense of the internal construction of the transistor, and not in the sense of wiring discrete components together with solder as you were attempting to dishonestly shift the topic to. That's quite different from your own earlier attempt to use "in a sense" to try to minimize your admission that an earlier point of yours was moot.

Don't fault me for using the phrase honestly just because you misused it and I called you on it.

What a hypocrite.

What a troll.

Andrew, you lost the discussion with your trolling dishonesty a week ago, and now you've just plain lost it all together.

Andrew, if all you have left is insults which attempt to mischaracterize what I write in so transparent a fashion in order to give you a cheap excuse to falsely call me a "liar", give it up. I'm not impressed. Quite the contrary, in fact, my opinion of your intellectly honesty *and* your intelligence drops with each post of yours.

I have better things to do than repeatedly correct the staccato accusations of crybabies. If you insist on continuing to attack me just to try to salvage your own wounded pride, I'm going to get the moderators involved. Your childish behavior has gone on long enough. Get a grip.

1,712 posted on 05/21/2003 8:34:01 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon; general_re
I was pointing out that we were discussing the term in the sense of the internal construction of the transistor, and not in the sense of wiring discrete components together with solder as you were attempting to dishonestly shift the topic to.

Still trying the red herring. I stated it won't work. In a sense, means in a sense. Junction transistors are not fabricated by putting two diodes back-to-back. They are fabricated by a process of doping(appropriate to you) and redoping(still appropriate to you) a silicon wafer(newer techniques exist).

Now, transparently lacking any rational backing for your red herring position you threaten. Well, go ahead call on the Moderator. I used in a sense honestly and I will reiterate, After all, it "consists" of back-to-back diodes in a sense. --- post 1435

Your words---I was pointing out that we were discussing the term in the sense of the internal construction of the transistor

Troll yourself

general, talk sense into this troll, if you can. I can't.

1,713 posted on 05/21/2003 9:02:01 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: gore3000
Lots of water is not an example of self-assembly. Neither are snowflakes which are just the result of freezing of water and perhaps the power of the wind in giving them different shapes. They lack complexity. They are totally due to natural forces, and very simple ones at that. The DNA in the simplest organism however, the arrangement of it is not only not due to any natural forces, but it cannot be due to it.

Fascinating bit of personal opinion, unsubstantiated by anything other that Gore3000 University. Now that the Univ of Hawaii are no longer called the Rainbows, the nickname is available to your school (of erroneous) thought. Behe can teach there, of course.

Is water "simple?" Are polar covalent bonds "simple?" Couldn't someone say that water was "designed?" How can you state it wasn't? (Well, you just did, but why?) Water is unlike any other "naturally" occurring liquid on earth. The ultimate corrosive. Many of water's properties are nothing short of fascinating. Snowflakes are "simple?" Maybe for you with your folded paper and kiddie scissors they are, but in nature? Simple? They *look* designed to me. Prove they aren't.

Your failure to see the inanity of your position boggles the rational mind. YOU, RainbowBrite3000, can determine what is "designed" (DNA) and what is "not designed." Your ability to determine these things, if it were true, would be amazing.

Alas, You are only "amazing" in the area of html font colors.
1,714 posted on 05/21/2003 9:09:30 AM PDT by whattajoke (Gore3000 and the Amazing Technicolor DreamFont... coming to your town soon!)
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To: AndrewC; Ichneumon
I don't think I can help here, not least of all because I had exactly one EE course in college, and I have thankfully forgotten virtually all of it - I must therefore decline to referee on grounds of technical incompetence ;)
1,715 posted on 05/21/2003 9:15:34 AM PDT by general_re (When you step on the brakes, you're putting your life in your foot's hands...)
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To: general_re
Lack of expertise hasn't stopped anyone else...
1,716 posted on 05/21/2003 9:27:57 AM PDT by null and void
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To: general_re
Well, it was not your experise in EE that is necessary. It is what "in a sense" means. You can read my statement above or in its full context in the referenced post--I know that you can use a transistor as a diode in a pinch. After all, it "consists" of back-to-back diodes in a sense.

The point the troll was attempting to make was that I did not know what I was talking about. I knew that a transistor could be used as a diode and I knew that it could be considered as two diodes back-to-back. But two diodes back-to-back do not in every sense make a transistor, which he apparently was trying to imply with --- Trollish Behavior #9: Not only "in a sense", Troll, but in actuality. Stop squirming, Troll.

1,717 posted on 05/21/2003 9:33:46 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
[In any case, does this mean that you're now retracting your original claim that, "Which, of course, makes my original statement, that a transistor was in a sense two diodes back-to-back, entirely correct"?]

Absolutely not.

Good, so you agree with me after all, despite your continued bitching about it for a WEEK now. And of course that doesn't stop you from then launching into a ridiculous tirade against me anyway:

Your transparent attempt at squirming out of your hypocritical and B.S. revision of the clear meaning of actuality does not work. I added another method of adjoining diodes since you cannot fathom soldering despite your alleged E.E. training. You could superglue the things togther if you like.

Blah blah blah.

Give it up, son. You're just making a monumental ass of yourself.

And your red herring attempt at changing the discussion to mating semiconductor layers won't work.

It's not a "change", or a "red herring", as you well know. It was the original context which you yourself were invoking when you said, and I quote you, "Which, of course, makes my original statement, that a transistor was in a sense two diodes back-to-back, entirely correct".

But then, of course, when I used that *same* fact to undercut a point you thought you were bolstering with it, suddenly it's time for you to spend a week prancing around distracting attention from your own statement by going off on a ridiculous tangent about "soldering leads together", which is a different thing altogether, as you well know. Well you're not fooling me, and I doubt you're fooling anyone else.

But then, that's your tactic, isn't it? On these threads I've repeatedly seen you treat any point you might be losing ground on as a red-hot fire poker -- your constant method of dealing with that is to divert the topic into some side issue or nitpicking subtopic, again and again as necessary to keep the argument running off in every direction but back to the issue(s) you'd rather not talk about. Getting you to stay on topic is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall: We want to talk about the capabilities of evolved circuits, so you want to talk about the accuracy of simulations. Okay, we'll talk about the accuracy of simulations, so you want to talk about "unterminated leads". Okay, we ask you to evaluate just how much/little the "unterminated lead" in that circuit is likely to affect its performance, so you want to talk about whether a transistor with base/collector wired together is a suitable subtitute for a diode. Fine, we point out that given the internal structure of a transistor, wiring a transistor that way reduces it *to* a diode. Rather than deal with that point, you about-face and begin to argue that contrary to your earlier claim of being "entirely correct" about transistors being back-to-back diodes internally, suddenly you want to confuse the point and switch to the straw man about diodes "soldered" together not forming a transistor (as if that had anything to do with the original point *YOU* were the first to raise). Fine, then we point out your shift of topic, and you spend the next week blustering about how *we're* the ones who tried to shift the topic, and you've managed to flog that dead horse so long that you don't even need to shift topic anymore, because you've become so devoid of actual substance that your namecalling is its own diversion.

My only regret is that I've allowed you to get away with it by playing your "chase the topic" game around in circles for so long.

But I note that this is pretty par for the course for creationists -- they seem to know they can't win on a head-to-head discussion of the evidence, so they constantly play either the "shift the topic repeatedly" troll game, or the "act like a bonehead on the most simple of points so that 1000 posts go by just trying to get them to admit that 2+2=4 after all" troll game.

It may be childish, but it often works. Not only does it disgust lurkers so much that they bail out early and never return, but it keeps the evolutionists so busy playing "whack-a-troll" that they spend far less time making posts presenting the actual evidence.

But it doesn't make it any less dishonest or childish.

1,718 posted on 05/21/2003 9:34:16 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: PatrickHenry
Evidently, LBB and the Rainbow Coalition think that placemarkers to ourselves must act like blood in the water, drawing evo-sharks to whom it was not even posted and directing them to attack comments to which it is not even linked...

Methinks someone is a little paranoid.

1,719 posted on 05/21/2003 9:34:33 AM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: null and void
Lack of expertise hasn't stopped anyone else...

How would you know?

1,720 posted on 05/21/2003 9:35:36 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
Except that placemarkers are there solely to allow us to skip over the posts we've already perused. They do just what they say: they mark our place in a discussion. We don't always have any pithy comments, or even any relevant comments to make at certain points in a thread, but that does not mean we want to scroll through hundreds of posts just to get to the new stuff -- and this is vitally important when one is monitoring several posts at any time.
1,721 posted on 05/21/2003 9:37:18 AM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: f.Christian
One must admit, "placemarker" is much more comprehensible.
1,722 posted on 05/21/2003 9:39:01 AM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: Ichneumon
Good, so you agree with me after all, despite your continued bitching about it for a WEEK now.

I made the original statement. It was you that started the argument about it by accusing me of being a troll in making the statement. Now you say we agree and further say this

Give it up, son. You're just making a monumental ass of yourself.

Your statement actually describes yourself.

1,723 posted on 05/21/2003 9:40:23 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
I've been looking at the quality of the arguments. Generally speaking, as knowledge goes down, volume goes up...
1,724 posted on 05/21/2003 9:40:36 AM PDT by null and void
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To: jwalsh07
[I think you're misreading the point being made. A transistor is "back-to-back diodes" in the sense of its internal construction at the semi-conductor level. A diode is a single PN junction: ]

In a sense, you should insist on a refund. A transistor is a transistor. Absent the potential of a bias on the base your "back to back diodes" are as useless as a tit on a bull.

That's a nice straw man you've got there. "Absent the potential of a bias on the base" my hind end. Yeah, and "absent a battery a radio is just a hunk of metal and plastic". Like that disproves that radios work? Your squirming aside, if you take two PN junctions (diodes) and join them P-to-P or N-to-N, you will indeed have constructed a working transistor (although not a practical one if the middle of the "sandwich" is too thick). I presented specific facts and argument in the post to which you are responding, and I note you haven't attempted to refute a single one of them -- the best you can do is mouth off and make personally insulting remarks. Typical.

Take your sophistry elsewhere, we're not in the market today.

Did you take a course on "bull" in college as well? I hope the doping lecture was for the benefit of the general public because if it was intended for me, I can only chuckle.

I'm sure that *is* all you can do. Many of the rest of us are capable of a higher level of discourse, however.

I don't know what your problem is, but kindly do not continue to share it with us unless you've got something worthwhile to add to the conversation.

1,725 posted on 05/21/2003 9:43:23 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Junior
Except that placemarkers are there solely to allow us to skip over the posts we've already perused

No doubt that is how you use it or many others. But then why address it to all, more than one, or any other specific person(unless it is just convenient) when it is much easier to just leave the "to line" blank?

1,726 posted on 05/21/2003 9:46:51 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: null and void
I've been looking at the quality of the arguments.

It seems to me that part of judging the quality of arguments involves some knowledge of the topic at hand. (This is not a criticism of you, merely a statement of opinion.)

1,727 posted on 05/21/2003 9:50:34 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Ichneumon
LOL.

You don't have the requisite male anatomy to admit when you're wrong.

A battery is the source of potential dipstick, the base or gate of a transistor is an inherent component of same.

I repeat, get a refund forthwith.

1,728 posted on 05/21/2003 9:55:50 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: AndrewC
True.

I studied college level EE for five years, but that was 30 years ago, and I've been doing mostly micro-electro-mechanical systems (MEMS) for the last 20 years.

Like General_re, I've forgotten most of what I knew.

The core argument isn't a quibble about diodes and transisitors, it's whether a useful circuit can be designed by an evolutionary process.

The answer to that question is yes.

1,729 posted on 05/21/2003 9:59:49 AM PDT by null and void (The rest of the argument is merely amusing to watch....)
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To: AndrewC
For some reason, I cannot leave the "To" line blank; it will not let me make the post if I do so.
1,730 posted on 05/21/2003 10:02:48 AM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: null and void
you could post to yourself, junior...
1,731 posted on 05/21/2003 10:04:43 AM PDT by null and void
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To: null and void
it's whether a useful circuit can be designed by an evolutionary process

Well, it may be to you, but here we are discussing a specific circuit. Since you have a background in the subject, you might have some opinion as to the evolved circuit and how it functions. Specifically, how it functions compared to the patented circuit in the environment and uses for which it was designed.

1,732 posted on 05/21/2003 10:05:48 AM PDT by AndrewC
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This is what it looks like.
1,733 posted on 05/21/2003 10:06:30 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Junior
See 1733, I used the reply link on your post and removed your name.
1,734 posted on 05/21/2003 10:07:34 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
Nope. I've done a total of about 30 hours of electronics engineering in the last 30 years. (Shoulda studied ME) My education/experience is so stale, my inputs would be suspect.
1,735 posted on 05/21/2003 10:11:56 AM PDT by null and void (A man's gotta know his limits...)
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To: null and void
Nope. I've done a total of about 30 hours of electronics engineering in the last 30 years.

Well, your honesty and integrity cannot be challenged.

1,736 posted on 05/21/2003 10:14:18 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: null and void
Using your background, can you tell me where one can find a 9.4115K resistor? Or how difficult it would be to fabricate?
1,737 posted on 05/21/2003 10:18:13 AM PDT by AndrewC
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Interesting.
1,738 posted on 05/21/2003 10:19:13 AM PDT by Junior (Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes.)
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To: AndrewC
Using your background, can you tell me where one can find a 9.4115K resistor?

In a million turn 10K pot.

1,739 posted on 05/21/2003 10:21:29 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: null and void
The core argument isn't a quibble about diodes and transisitors, it's whether a useful circuit can be designed by an evolutionary process.

Computers are very good at iteration given a problem, a desired solution, a dbase and a good programmer.

1,740 posted on 05/21/2003 10:24:52 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Nebullis
"Avida, is an artificial petri dish in which organisms not only reproduce, but also perform mathematical calculations to obtain rewards. Their reward is more computer time that they can use for making copies of themselves."

Artificial life in an artificially created environment with artificial intelligence endowed by its creator. Evolutionary?

1,741 posted on 05/21/2003 10:25:32 AM PDT by Z.Hobbs
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To: jwalsh07
In a million turn 10K pot.

ROFLMAO.

I'd hate to end-to-end test the darn thing for linearity.

1,742 posted on 05/21/2003 10:27:09 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Z.Hobbs
Spoken like a "Constitutionalist(strict construction)that recognizes that inalienable rights come only from God and are reflected in Holy Scripture," as your profile says.

That noted, I must discount your opinions on evolutionary matters, sorry.

btw, what do you call the white cold frozen stuff that those so-called "snowmakers" at ski resorts make?
1,743 posted on 05/21/2003 10:28:45 AM PDT by whattajoke (Gore3000 and the Amazing Technicolor DreamFont... coming to your town soon!)
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To: null and void
I've done a total of about 30 hours of electronics engineering in the last 30 years

Even so, you must know claims that a transistor "is in a sense two diodes tied back to back" clearly misses the mark and establishes the claimee as dabbling outside his field of expertise.

1,744 posted on 05/21/2003 10:31:53 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: AndrewC
Buy a big bunch of 10K resistors and cull for one at that value.

Hint, control the temperature, as that will change the measured value.

Hint 2, use kelvin contacts (four leads - two to drive the test current, two to measure the voltage drop) to avoid contact resistance problems.

Or buy a 7K carbon resistor and a jeweler's file, measure the resistor and start filing a notch in it until the value rises to 9.4115K. Protect the cut with shellac or nail polish...

1,745 posted on 05/21/2003 10:33:52 AM PDT by null and void
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To: jwalsh07
Computers are very good at iteration given a problem, a desired solution, a dbase and a good programmer.

Yup, and given a new not too hostile environment, a selection for better addapted members of a population, and a few ten's of thousands of generations, evolution/natural selection will result in a new species...

1,746 posted on 05/21/2003 10:38:02 AM PDT by null and void
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To: jwalsh07
Even so, you must know claims that a transistor "is in a sense two diodes tied back to back" clearly misses the mark and establishes the claimee as dabbling outside his field of expertise.

Or someone trying to explain it to a tyro...

1,747 posted on 05/21/2003 10:40:04 AM PDT by null and void (in a sense...)
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To: null and void
Does that mean that computers are good at iteration and evolution challenged?
1,748 posted on 05/21/2003 10:40:08 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: null and void
Or someone trying to explain it to a tyro...

Say what?

1,749 posted on 05/21/2003 10:41:30 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: null and void
Hey, very good advice, except how long will it take to accomplish the task? I don't expect answer, because we all know it is not practical since it requires about a .005 per cent precision.
1,750 posted on 05/21/2003 10:43:20 AM PDT by AndrewC
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