PBS airs "Hitler's Victory," an alternate history with significance to American patriots

[irv]

I think common sense and a sense of imminent doom would have convinced more than enough of congress...

Excuse me? Did you use "common sense" and "congress" in the same sentence? Was congress really that different 60 years ago from now?

[Reaganwuzthebest]

As it was, getting our forces mobilized, recruited, organized, trained (after a fashion), and shipped in time to participate in Torch in November, 1942 is an unappreciated miracle.

Lots of good points and they're accurate. Our support for Britain initially would most likely have been air, troop wise not much, we only had about 2000 or so in Iceland. But in 1940 the draft had been resumed in the US right at the same time Hitler planned to execute Operation Sealion, which was in September. Any total subjugation of Britain would have taken weeks or months, if at all giving us time to train troops and mobilize them.

It would have been difficult for us if Hitler did succeed in conquering Britain before we could prevent it, but I believe during that period we would have gradually built up our forces in Iceland and possibly sent troops to Ireland for plans to invade Britain. Either way, he would have faced us directly and economically the US was a giant compared to Germany, we would have beaten him with or without Britain.

[chilepepper]

Alternate history is a fascinating topic: a Nazi defeat of Britain was definitely possible if one postulates a very few events going differently.

o DUNKIRK - as a "gesture", Hitler held back in capturing the BEF. If he had not done so, English morale would have suffered a tremendous hit, not to mention the loss of experienced troops.

o BATTLE OF BRITAIN - if the Luftwaffe/Goering had seen the destruction of the RAF airfields all the way through and gained air supremacy, things would be grim indeed for the Brits. I believe the guy who "really" saved England was Bomber Harris, who launched a bombing raid of Berlin when things were at their grimmest. This bombing raid attacked German *civilians*, and caused both Hitler and Goering to lose face, but the result was to take the Luftwaffe out of their gameplan and start bombing the British cities in retaliation, giving the RAF airfields and radar installations badly needed respite (the British civilians had to bear the brunt of course, but they did it with typical British aplomb).

o BARBAROSSA - if Hitler had postponed the attack on the Soviet Union, he probably would have had an easier time of it against the Brits. The Soviets were unlikely to take on the Germans until/unless the Germans were already on the ropes.

o DECLARING WAR ON THE US - if Hitler had not declared war on the US, it is not clear the US would have declared war on Germany...imagine Hitler denouncing the Japanese and in a very public way saying it was willing to help the US defeat Japan! (imagine the effect on US public opinion particularly given the German/Italian/Irish population which was inherently anti-British)

o THE BALKANS - if the Italians had been able to take Yugoslavia by themselves, the Wehrmacht would have had many more soldiers and assets to use against the Soviets and Stalingrad could have had a very different outcome.

o ME262 - if Hitler had not tried to turn a fighter jet into a bomber, the Luftwaffe might have been able to stem the waves of bombers against the German heartland.

As to those who say that taking Britain/Scotland wouldn't have changed the outcome of things, perhaps and perhaps not.

Gibraltar probably would have fallen. The great convoys would probably not be able to get to Murmansk. The nightmares would have started to pile up in a hurry...

the list goes on and on... just a few of these might have lead to a very different outcome -- it looks like God was helping out in this one!

[SuziQ]

but it seems to me that the moment the nazi's managed a beachhead on Britain, US Soldiers would have been landing to help the Brits throw them off.

Back then, the Nazi's would have had time to get a strong toehold in Britain before we could get there. They didn't have long distances from which to bring supplies, etc. You think supply lines in Iraq were in difficulty? Just imagine what it would have been like for us to maintain a supply line across the Atlantic. We would have have to bring more carriers from the Pacific making that area of operations less efficient and dragging thewar in the Pacific out. We would still have won, but it would have been long, bloody and costly for us and for the Brits.

[risk]

...it looks like God was helping out in this one!

And a lot of good people either slacked off on their duties under Hitler (Heisenberg?), and a lot of even better people made sure they were on our side of the front lines before the war started.

[sailor4321]

If those "rightists" had achieved detente with Germany, they would have fit right in with the "leftists" (i.e., communists) who of course supported the German-Russian nonaggression pact (to the point of opposing our doing anything to stop the NAZIs). Thank God Germany attacked Russia, as this made it possible for the left in this country to support anti-fascism. Otherwise, we might well have seen the left in this country trying to sabotage the war effort (rather than simply giving every secret they could lay their hands on to the Russians).

[Bob J]

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[NormsRevenge]

Thanks so much for the post. This was one of those programs that when I saw the title and the start of it, I wasn't sure what to expect.

Excellent program.

I know we can knock the PBS networks and stations for slanted content but this is one show that made a number of strong points about what could have happened.

The information about the creation of the books that listed the targeted members of the English Isle was very interesting.The FBI files come to mind when I saw that segment, for some reason.

I am always on guard for the many historical programs that detail the WW1 and WW2 goings on, including most recently World War 2 The Complete History.

It has a spellbinding effect to see the sacrifices made to stop those who would have conquered the world and destroyed it at the same time and so many innocents.

Let us Never Forget that we are a continuation of those same "fictional" accounts of FRee peoples struggling for survival against what sometimes seem to be unsurmountable odds.

It is the spirit and the faith of FRee people that sustains us to this day.

One thing that upset me a bit is that they got Winnie in this show. In reality, it took his own people turning their backs on him after saving them all. President Bush must never face the same result.

[FirstFlaBn]

I think we're substantially in agreement, but let me bore you with one more fact. By the end of September, 1940 we had mobilized eight more infantry divisions and two armored divisions, almost all national guard units.

If, as with the 34th, the fastest one took a year, no reason to believe it could have been done any quicker. And that year is to get them to American ports, not embarked, arrived, unloaded, unpacked, and set up. Probably another 2-3 months to get there and get combat ready, so for a NG division mobilizing around the time of Dunkirk, it would be August, 1941 before they could fight in Britain.

I'm not meaning to slight the Marines, but they had their hands full in the Pacific, and, of course, some of the Army divisions had to go out there too and couldn't have helped Britain.

No doubt in my mind that Churchill is The Man of the Century. Nobody else alive (and maybe nobody who ever lived) could have kept their people's heart in the war.

If you'll allow one more thought: I've become a really WWII nut in the last year. Someday the gang needs to have a WWII book review-discussion-round robin. I love Bookfinder.com - and they love me!

[risk]

Let us Never Forget that we are a continuation of those same "fictional" accounts of FRee peoples struggling for survival against what sometimes seem to be unsurmountable odds.

Yes, you picked up on everything I intended to convey with this thread. As we look back, let's not forget to look ahead: the Islamic theofascist horde is just a reminder that free peoples can never secure their safety with any permanence. It is also our own continual sacrifice and resolve that will keep us free, not only something our parents and grandparents have done.

In honor of my father, who earned a Purple Heart over Rumania in a B24 when it was hit by a flak burst in 1944. My dad returned, and so did his brothers and my grandfather. May the freedoms their sacrifices defended never be relinquished by a future generation who fails to serve and protect.

We must never let our own children believe that any prior sacrifices were "sufficient" that they can relax their guard.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

If, as with the 34th, the fastest one took a year, no reason to believe it could have been done any quicker. And that year is to get them to American ports, not embarked, arrived, unloaded, unpacked, and set up.

You're most likely correct on that, we would have built up our forces gradually in the surrounding area while Hitler was fighting Britain. Although given the urgency of the situation, it may have motivated the US to move a little quicker into Europe than it did following Pearl Harbor. All of the continent falling to Hitler, including Britain was seen by Roosevelt as a far greater threat to US interests than Japan was.

No doubt in my mind that Churchill is The Man of the Century. Nobody else alive (and maybe nobody who ever lived) could have kept their people's heart in the war.

Definitely agree with you there, Churchill was the inspiration the West needed to fight on, especially after the way Neville Chamberlain failed so horribly to understand the threat Britain was up against. He was the right man at the right time.

[NovemberCharlie]

o BARBAROSSA - if Hitler had postponed the attack on the Soviet Union, he probably would have had an easier time of it against the Brits. The Soviets were unlikely to take on the Germans until/unless the Germans were already on the ropes.

o DECLARING WAR ON THE US - if Hitler had not declared war on the US, it is not clear the US would have declared war on Germany...imagine Hitler denouncing the Japanese and in a very public way saying it was willing to help the US defeat Japan! (imagine the effect on US public opinion particularly given the German/Italian/Irish population which was inherently anti-British)

o THE BALKANS - if the Italians had been able to take Yugoslavia by themselves, the Wehrmacht would have had many more soldiers and assets to use against the Soviets and Stalingrad could have had a very different outcome.

---------------------------------------

I recently read a book on famous strategic mistakes throughout history, and all three of these made the list. First, Russia and the Balkans. Hitler had originally planned to launch Barbarossa earlier to avoid the Russian winter that had stymied Napoleon, but was forced to divert to Yugoslavia to save Mussolini. Oops.

And then, there's Japan. The Germans were caught as off guard as anyone else, and were much relieved the next day when Roosevelt asked for a declaration of war against only Japan. The idea of going up against a force which could "sit back for years and build up a massive force which, once unleached, would be unstoppable" was unthinkable. And apparently Hitler didn't think about it.

[Thud]

If Hitler hadn't declared war on us, we'd have declared war on him. But we had decoded the message from the Japanese ambassador to Germany, Baron Oshima, telling his government that Hitler had promised, upon hearing of Pearl Harbor, that he would declare war on the US shortly. President Roosevelt knew the Germans would do us that favor, and didn't ask Congress to declare war on Germany, as well as Japan, on December 8.

[NormsRevenge]

My extended family including uncles and cousins were fortunate and none of them sustained any serious injuries in WW2.

Most are gone now, in fact, my last living uncle is 86 or so and near the end. I remember as a kid seeing the photos he had taken after liberating a couple concentration/death camps. A sight I shall never forget. I would like to think that instilled in me the spirit of Never Forget to some degree. God Bless Uncle Harold. One of his daughters and my cousins married a Viet vet and directly experienced the effects of Agent Orange and lost a daughter after many years of suffering from birth defects.

Wars fought on foreign shores and lands do still reach out and touch the faithful huddled around the home fires of FReedom. We must tend those fires vigilantly lest others exterminate them and vanquish the memories of those who gave and lost so much for all of us.

[Big Horn]

I saw it last night it was very interesting. The Germans and Hitler were so close to winning it is scary.

[Mr.Clark]

There was a book written a few years ago, How Hitler Could Have Won. There were like 23 scenarios that were horrifyingly simple, but Hitler had a great ability to make the worst military decisions possible.

One thing that I think people ignore when they say, if Germany took Britain, we would have eventually won anyway. I'm not so sure. First of all, would the US have even bothered? It would have been a lot easier to make a peace with the new Nazi superstate. Also, remember, if Britain went down, you could count on Egypt going down also. Hitler would have been unchallenged in North Africa and the Middle East, once he turned his attention that way. India would also be in a very perilous position. I really think the defeat of Britain would have allowed the Nazi's a good chance of taking Russia down, at least the Ukraine. Think of the resources that would have been at Hitler's disposal!

[Princeliberty]

The US was really unprepared to help,
as bad shape as our military was on December 7,1941
we were much worse off the, we had started to build
our military after Hitler conquered France and
were still had our pants down.
This would have been summer of 1940 and
we very little in the way of army or Air Force,
and if the Germans got into England
small distance form the beach to London,
and England's ground forces were shot,
their defense was their Navy and
if the Germans gained the air and
sunk it the land forces could have
hardly even slowed the Germans down.

Further, the Germans probably made a mistake
by not attacking right away with the full
paratrooper corps and all their guilders
(which they had a ton of)
See Crete operations were 18,000 German
paratroopers defeated about 35,000 British
and allied forces(including an armored division!)

[Princeliberty]

Right months to get them in North Africia
and that is with England as
staging point for operations.

And that is 1942.
This is 1940 we were much less prepared
once Germany was on land in England
we would had maybe a couple weeks
to save England not several months.
This fairy tale of Hilter was just a lunatic
and it all was a just one huge false in
pan is foolishness designed to avoid
answering hard questions about
what was wrong(and is wrong) that Hilter
rose and had support to lesser or greater
degree throughout Europe and many who didn't
support still didn't want to fight him.
Why was this? The establishment does not
really want to come to grips with this.

[Princeliberty]

Not just North Africa all those
French colonies would have being
Vichy for sure then and South Africia
was by then majority Boer and would
have most likely allied with Hitler.
And some the other British colonies
who have almost surely gone with
the puppet government.
All of Africia and and even India
probably would fallen to Hitler
with very little opposition.

And only would have the 1941 attack been
on time. But the occupation forces
in England would have been far less
than the large numbers of German division
than had to be stationed in Norway,
France, Holland, Belgium to guard
against the Allies, only grassions
would have left and the rest marched
to the East to conquer Russia.
Further, Greece and Yugoslavia would
have never fought the Axis and hence
those occupation forces would go
East too. Turkey would have joined
in Germany almost surely after a fall
of England. And it had a land army
and would have opened up the invasion for
the South. Persis and Afghanistan
were ready to Germany and so even Central Asis
could have been invaded in 1941.

Britian really was the key to war, if it
had fell Hitler probably would have won,
but once it held out Hitler was probably
doomed after that.

[Princeliberty]

See Crete Invasion Germany paratroopers
took it on their own. 18,000 paratroopers
defeated 35,000 British and Allied forces.

With control of the air, the German
paratroopers forces and their large number
of Guilders could have probably put in
prehaps 100,000 troops into England which
would been too much for anything the
British had on the Beaches at that moment
and probably could have withstood anything
the British could do land counterattack wise,
and secured beachheads and then
the Airforce and U-boats could have blown
away the British Navy in Channel and
then rolled onto London.
In fact the Germany paratroopers and forces
brought in by Guilders might have been
able to win even before the battle
of the Channel was one by the Germans.
Ships in a channel would have no chance
against Airplanes and subs.