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Hispanics condemn use of spy airplane to catch undocumented people
Terra - Notimex ^ | 8 May 2003 | Unknown

Posted on 05/08/2003 8:31:16 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder

(Milady madfly passed this to me; I tried to clean up the BabbleFish translation before posting.)

Hispanic and human rights organizations in the United States condemned the anti-immigrant American Border Patrol (ABP) for its illegal use of a spy airplane to remotely detect undocumented people in Arizona.

"It is completely illegal that private groups use the airspace for functions exclusively reserved to US authorities", Katherine Culliton, lawyer for Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Foundation (MALDEF) said to Notimex.

The defender of immigrant rights also condemned that ABP plans to use that type of technology to catch undocumented people instead of using it to save human lives in the desert during the season of extreme heat that is approaching in the region.

Arizona recently became the main entry way into the United States for undocumented people, and the last year registered the greatest amount of deaths of immigrants in all the country.

Culliton’s comments followed the successful test of an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (without crew) which ABP will use to detect undocumented people in the region.

According to Glenn Spencer, director of ABP, the small UAV was christened “Border Hawk” and is equipped with a camera that transmits video images through a satelite signal to earth monitors.

The UAV measures a meter in length and two meters wingspan and can reach speeds of almost 65 kilometros per hour, as well as an approximate altitude of 100 meters. Its gasoline tanks allow it to fly 90 minutes without refueling.

According to the group, based in Sierra Vista, Arizona, the aircraft will be used by ABP to detect undocumented people along the border in Arizona and their locations tipped off to the Border Patrol for apprehension.

Isabel Garcia, cofounder of the Coalition of Human rights of Arizona agreed that the use of the UAV by ABP to try to catch immigrants would break US laws that allow only competent authorities to use the airspace with police aims.

Also, that if the ABP aircraft enters Mexican territory without authorization to conduct its operations, this would break Mexican and international laws on intrusion into the airspace of sovereign nations, creating a possible international incident.

On the other hand the director of policy and legislation of Liga de United Latin American Ciudadanos (LULAC), main Hispanic organization in the United States, Gabriela Lemus, condemned the use by ABP of the UAV.

"This new action by ABP is worrisome in that it contributes to promote hatred and racism against immigrants in the region" indicated Lemus when indicating that the US government has the obligation to prevent it.

It should be remembered that while the United States does not make a reform of its migratory laws that allow to regularize undocumented people in the country and to create a program of working guests, enormous flows of illegal immigration will continue entering by the South border.

ABP has operated in Arizona since last year as a non-profit organization and free of taxes.

ABP looks to educate the US on what they consider the "invasion" of the country by Mexican undocumented people with support of the government of Mexico, and the threat that those immigrants represent to the security of the United States.

The private group is considered antiimmigrant by detractors, who have asked for federal and state authorities to investigate it along with other groups that operate in Arizona, including some of vigilantes who use arms to stop undocumented people.

The aircraft tests by ABP has caused an increasing interest by the authorities and US legislators on the possible use of unmanned spy airplanes like "Predator", as used in the recent attack on Iraq, to watch the border with Mexico and Canada.

ABP has indicated that it believes the successful test of their UAV will help persuade US authorities to adopt that type of technology to watch the border.

Some officials who have supported the use of the Predator in the border, are the undersecretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Asa Hutchinson; Senators John McCain and John Warner; and Colorado Congressman, Tom Tancredo.

Pete Domenici, Senator from New Mexico joined that group this week in supporting the initiative and to ask for the Secretary of DHS, Tom Ridge, to designate the airport at Las Cruces, New Mexico, as a possible base for Predators that operate in the South border.

The Border Patrol considers that the use of the UAV for its functions is unnecessary, because they count on a flotilla of small planes and manned helicopters that allow them to carry out their work.

They argue that when they have required use of those vehicles they have resorted to the US military for support, as happened recently in Idaho, where border guards managed to confiscate a drug shipment with the help of a UAV from the Army.

Other detractors of the use of UAVs in border areas assure that they are less reliable than the manned aircraft and show statistics that for each accident by a manned aircraft, the UAVs suffer ten.

In addition, they insist that they could violate civil rights of US citizens that reside in the border area if they are used to spy on them and not to only watch undocumented people.

Terra/Notimex


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; Mexico; US: Arizona
KEYWORDS: ac130gunship; border; borderhawk; hellfiremissle; illegals; notfair; uav; whaaaa
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The rest of the usual suspects are finally slithering into view...
1 posted on 05/08/2003 8:31:16 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder
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To: Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; B4Ranch; madfly; FITZ; Reaganwuzthebest; hsmomx3; ...
Ping!

Sad to say, but it appears that my friends and I have managed to offend a rather large number of people.

Bwahahahahahaha!
2 posted on 05/08/2003 8:34:28 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
undocumented people in Arizona

I prefer the correct term, that even Phil Collins was not afraid to use in his song:

"It's no fun, being an Illegal Alien."

3 posted on 05/08/2003 8:36:24 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Boiled down newspeak? Its illegal to catch illegal aliens.
4 posted on 05/08/2003 8:38:54 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: JackelopeBreeder
It's because our economy and our jobs are a GAME to the illeagles.
5 posted on 05/08/2003 8:44:47 PM PDT by Uncle George
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To: JackelopeBreeder
I'm disgusted. This use of video equipped privately owned robo-bat-nazis is icky.

They don't even have a stripped down Ruger 10-22 full auto for varmint plinking. It's downright unAmerican.

6 posted on 05/08/2003 8:46:27 PM PDT by fourdeuce82d
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Also, that if the ABP aircraft enters Mexican territory without authorization to conduct its operations, this would break Mexican and international laws on intrusion into the airspace of sovereign nations, creating a possible international incident.

What? These whining buttwipes don't think the intrusion of millions of illegal immigrants upon American soil is creating a "possible international incident"???

Oughta equip the plane with a spotlight for night flights an watch las cucarachas scatter!

7 posted on 05/08/2003 8:47:12 PM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green
To Hell with the spyplane- AC130 gunship
8 posted on 05/08/2003 8:49:17 PM PDT by hatfieldmccoy
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To: JackelopeBreeder
MALDEF has always been a 5th column group but it is sad to see how the mexican nationals have completely taken over LULAC. Neither of them cares about the US as a whole.
9 posted on 05/08/2003 8:49:29 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: All
Up here in Alaska I heard on the news that the Coast Guard is requesting a Predator or other large UAV to patrol off the coast for Russian trawlers illegally fishing in US waters.
Personally I think using a UAV in AZ is a great idea, it should however be able to cruise for days nonstop to be really effective.
10 posted on 05/08/2003 8:51:13 PM PDT by Daniel Ramsey
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To: Willie Green
The infrared video camera weighs a lot less than a spotlight and doesn't give away the UAV's location at night.
11 posted on 05/08/2003 8:51:45 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
bttt
12 posted on 05/08/2003 8:52:57 PM PDT by Tauzero
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To: JackelopeBreeder
As a Hispanic, we do not condemn any way of catching illegal immagrants.
13 posted on 05/08/2003 8:57:20 PM PDT by Porterville (Screw the grammar, full posting ahead.)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Foundation (MALDEF)

Hell! Not even Mexican Americans like these people.

14 posted on 05/08/2003 9:01:09 PM PDT by shiva
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Hispanic and human rights organizations in the United States condemned the anti-immigrant American Border Patrol (ABP) for its illegal use of a spy airplane to remotely detect undocumented people in Arizona.

Lets see the list; show me which hispanic associations are condeming this. Every hispanic-American I come across seems to understand our need to police our borders. What is the point of having borders if you are not going to have border integrity.
15 posted on 05/08/2003 9:03:39 PM PDT by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
So when do they mount the miniguns on a larger model? Have your friends considered using balloons with cameras?

I sure appreciate all that you folks are doing down there.
16 posted on 05/08/2003 9:07:58 PM PDT by 11B3 (Happiness IS a warm gun. After a long day's use.)
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To: JackelopeBreeder; Black Agnes; Regulator; Brownie74; glc1173@aol.com; A CA Guy; CoryLund; ...
Sad to say, but it appears that my friends and I have managed to offend a rather large number of people.

Bwahahahahahaha!

It's going to be hard for the feds to explain why they won't use this sort low-cost of technology to stop the flood of these no-habla barnacles, yet continue to ignore the presence and activities of anti-American fifth-column excrement heaps like MALDEF, LULAC, La Raza, and Isabel Garcia. Things are heating up.

17 posted on 05/08/2003 9:12:34 PM PDT by Tancredo Fan
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To: Texas_Jarhead
What can we say about a U.S. media that frequently brings "experts" on the Mexican situation on who belong to an organization called "The Race" which sports maps of a projected "Reconquering" and uses "Reconquering" in its speeches to its "race" when no gringo cameras are present? Have you seen anyone on TV call them out on this?
18 posted on 05/08/2003 9:13:44 PM PDT by AmericanVictory
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To: AmericanVictory
Not since Bill O'Reilly kicked Isabel Garcia to the curb. That was fun to watch. She seems to be allergic to cameras now.
19 posted on 05/08/2003 9:20:01 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Anyone care to join me in the group known as the The "I'm So Fu**ing Sick Of This Sh*t Foundation"?
(ISFSOTSF)

I can throw some alphabet soup around too, ya know!
20 posted on 05/08/2003 9:23:26 PM PDT by Sweet_Sunflower29 (Snapping fingers in a *whatever_shape_it_is* for emphasis.)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Have nothing against immigrants. My wife is one. May of my friends are immigrants or foreign nationals. However, Mexican nationals crossing our borders illegally are, in point of fact, illegal aliens. So they are guilty of a crime.

Second, this is an economically motivated crime. (Ok .. ok.. most crimes are economically motivated.) An economic deterrent will solve the problem. How 'bout this: $1,000 fine and 6 months in jail for the first offense, $50,000 fine and 1 year in jail for the second offense, and $100,000 fine and 5 years in jail for every succeeding offense. For "jail", create a "tent city" penitentiary in the Arizona desert. Nothing cruel. Make it bearable, but not easy or fun. Give them some education for their first term, but upon succeeding offenses, send them to a chain gang to experience hard labor.

Cruel? Mean? Not at all. It's a DETERRANT! There will not be recidivism if there is no profit in the crime. Right now, we're "winking" at the illegal aliens, shipping them back home within 24 hours of arrival in the U.S., and in effect telling them:

If Jose Doe cannot send money back to the family in Mexico, AND loses what he made working illegally in the U.S. due to forfeiture, he'll chose to try his luck on the Mexican economy before blowing through the U.S. judicial system again.

At the same time, I think we need to maintain a healthy work-visa system, i.e. not the no-limits system of the Tech Industry H1B give away, nor restrictions that harm the U.S. economy, and remove all hope from our friends across the border.

The current system is a joke ... a DANGEROUS joke. The U.S. needs to control it's borders to defend American citizens.

21 posted on 05/08/2003 9:23:41 PM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone
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To: JackelopeBreeder
The defender of immigrant rights

Immigrants are those that enter our country with valid visas. They are defending people who are breaking US laws. It is amazing the number of times these "defenders" cite what they call "illegal" activities of those working to stop illegal activity. Who decides which parts of the law they obey and which parts they break?

Shades of 1984!

22 posted on 05/08/2003 9:25:40 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Willie Green
"It is completely illegal that private groups use the airspace for functions exclusively reserved to US authorities",

Yep, and it is completely illegal that our gubmint will do nothing about the illegal border crossings too.

if the ABP aircraft enters Mexican territory without authorization to conduct its operations, this would break Mexican and international laws on intrusion into the airspace of sovereign nations, creating a possible international incident.

Yep, and the illegal invasion of our borders by moochers and drug runners has already created an international incident—and you’re complaining about what an airplane might do?

23 posted on 05/08/2003 9:26:13 PM PDT by Vigilanteman
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To: JackelopeBreeder
How dare we try to stop ILLEGALS from entering OUR Country.< /sarcasm>
24 posted on 05/08/2003 9:26:43 PM PDT by SAMWolf (If the economy does improve soon, bet on HIllary throwing her broom in the nomination ring)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
I should have taped the local TV news story on this; NBC 12
Phoenix ran a story by local reporter Mekahlo Medina. The jist of his story was the word "controversial" crapping out his mouth about 500 times during the course of his report. The local media here is pathetically complacent to criminal illegal invasion. They make me sick.

Mekahlo Medina bio from azcentral:
"He says they raised him with strong beliefs in self-determination and a solid commitment to community and culture. As a journalist, he is able to live those beliefs and live by an ancient Aztec phrase: XoChiTL IN CUiCATL (Truth on Earth)."

25 posted on 05/08/2003 9:37:26 PM PDT by wolficatZ
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To: Vigilanteman
Yep, and the first time the Mexicans whine about Border Hawk being too close to their airspace, I will remind them of the 119 or so incursions by Mexican military in the last couple of years.

Just FYI, the last test flight took place within rock throwing distance of a set of buildings frequently used as a Mexican military outpost.

Coincidence? I think not.
26 posted on 05/08/2003 9:39:45 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
The defender of immigrant rights also condemned that ABP plans to use that type of technology to catch undocumented people instead of using it to save human lives in the desert during the season of extreme heat that is approaching in the region.

Don't come here illegally and there won't be a problem

27 posted on 05/08/2003 9:41:50 PM PDT by Mo1 (I'm a monthly Donor .. You can be one too!)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
So, let me see if I understand this: These pro-illegal alien groups are saying that it is illegal to spy on illegals?

In other words, it is, in their opinion, illegal to use the Global Hawk to spy on people breaking into the USA???

28 posted on 05/08/2003 9:47:12 PM PDT by GirlyGirl2003
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To: SAMWolf
Yes! We must not stop illegals from entering OUR country!....Why that might be illegal, according to thees nuts.

Why can't they just stay in their own countries?

29 posted on 05/08/2003 9:49:23 PM PDT by GirlyGirl2003
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To: JackelopeBreeder
correction:

MALDEF Condemns law enforcement


30 posted on 05/08/2003 9:50:05 PM PDT by WOSG (Free Iraq! Free Cuba, North Korea, Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Tibet, China...)
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To: GirlyGirl2003
Why should they when they can come here and get free medical care, schooling and all the other welfare state benefits?
31 posted on 05/08/2003 9:52:40 PM PDT by SAMWolf (If the economy does improve soon, bet on HIllary throwing her broom in the nomination ring)
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To: Mo1
There is also the unavoidable fact that most of the deaths occur 200 miles west of where Border Hawk will be operating.

There is a very good reason why Cochise County is a popular crossing spot. We ar at a higher elevation (average 4500 feet, up to 9000+) and thus much more comfortable than the rest of southern Arizona. It actually snows here during the winters.
32 posted on 05/08/2003 9:55:56 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
In other news the Mob protests the use of wire-taps and informants in police work; criminals also decry police patrols and neighborhood watches.
33 posted on 05/08/2003 9:57:27 PM PDT by pragmatic_asian
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To: JackelopeBreeder
if the ABP aircraft enters Mexican territory without authorization to conduct its operations, this would break Mexican and international laws on intrusion into the airspace of sovereign nations, creating a possible international incident.

LOL...What are the Mexicans going to do about it? What can they do? Threaten to oppose us in the UN? Oh that's right, they already do that consistently. Allow Islamic terrorists to have a convenient base from which they can attack the U.S.? Oh yeah, they do that as well. Encourage their crimminals to come across the border (illegallly) and clog our jails? Again, old news.

34 posted on 05/08/2003 10:04:38 PM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Hmmm.

Wish I hadn't poured that last drink. A Border Patrol helicopter just passed over the house at full throttle headed towards the San Pedro River. Decent moonlight right now and I might have gotten some good pictures of the BP youngsters having fun.

Too late; get a refill.
35 posted on 05/08/2003 10:06:31 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Two words: Who Cares?

They can complain all they want. I have a simple solution...don't come here illegally and you won't have spy planes watching you.

It's as silly as Hispanics demanding private land owners provide water and shelter for illegals crossing their land.

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

36 posted on 05/08/2003 10:10:50 PM PDT by Fledermaus
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
Second, this is an economically motivated crime. (Ok .. ok.. most crimes are economically motivated.) An economic deterrent will solve the problem. How 'bout this: $1,000 fine and 6 months in jail for the first offense, $50,000 fine and 1 year in jail for the second offense, and $100,000 fine and 5 years in jail for every succeeding offense. For "jail", create a "tent city" penitentiary in the Arizona desert. Nothing cruel. Make it bearable, but not easy or fun. Give them some education for their first term, but upon succeeding offenses, send them to a chain gang to experience hard labor.

It will never work.

Were in the desert will you house the millions of detained illegal aliens?

How will you collect the fines?

How much taxpayer money will be sunk into this pit? It is not cheap to feed several million people 3 meals a day.

If Jose Doe cannot send money back to the family in Mexico, AND loses what he made working illegally in the U.S. due to forfeiture, he'll chose to try his luck on the Mexican economy before blowing through the U.S. judicial system again.

No he won’t. He’ll just keep trying until he gets through. You have not taken away what he is trying to obtain. It’s been proven time and time again.

At the same time, I think we need to maintain a healthy work-visa system,

We have one, but most US employers would rather save money by hiring illegal aliens.

37 posted on 05/08/2003 10:12:24 PM PDT by Marine Inspector (DHS BCBP II)
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To: JackelopeBreeder; Travis McGee
Como se dice, "Anti-illegal-immigrant"?
38 posted on 05/08/2003 10:17:02 PM PDT by hollywood (THIS JUST IN! It turns out that I'm pro-choice. I choose revolvers.)
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To: AmericanVictory
I don't know much but I know my great great great grandfather was one of the founder of California, Brother in law to Gen. Vallejo,who was govener of Upper California. We Conquered by a piece of paper written By Vallejo that basically said ... Okay we are part of america now. He begged for the govt. of mexico to send in troops but finally was so fed up with their inaction he said... heck lets be americans. Read "Men to match my mountains" By irving stone. This whole Mexican You stole our land BS sounds just like the Palestinians. Just BS.
39 posted on 05/08/2003 10:19:10 PM PDT by Walkingfeather (C)
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To: hollywood
When are you going to pull your duty down on the border? "Have gun will travel."

Maybe Uncle Neil will lend you his RV for HQ.

40 posted on 05/08/2003 10:29:02 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Tancredo Fan
It's going to be hard for the feds to explain why they won't use this sort low-cost of technology to stop the flood of these no-habla barnacles, yet continue to ignore the presence and activities of anti-American fifth-column excrement heaps like MALDEF, LULAC, La Raza, and Isabel Garcia. Things are heating up.

What I see is some Senators scrambling for pork for their state, beyond that everything I've seen is a dog and pony show, designed to make us believe they are doing something to fix the problem.

41 posted on 05/08/2003 10:32:48 PM PDT by c-b 1
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To: JackelopeBreeder; Clemenza; rmlew; PARodrig

It's time to mine the border.


42 posted on 05/08/2003 10:36:19 PM PDT by Cacique
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To: hollywood
Sorry, ace.

Korean, German, Russian, Japanese, or Tgalog is okay, but I only know the the bad words in Spanish.
43 posted on 05/08/2003 10:49:31 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Make that Tagalog.
44 posted on 05/08/2003 10:52:39 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: Tancredo Fan
Spraying with some marker or other product would be the next good thing to do.
45 posted on 05/08/2003 11:34:09 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Marine Inspector
It will never work.

Were < sic> in the desert will you house the millions of detained illegal aliens? We have lots of land. The Federal government took over millions of acres in the 90's with the great Western land grab (i.e. when they outlawed public use of most of the BLM land for things like OHV use and mining.)

How will you collect the fines?

Use the IRS. They seem to find me every year. The Federal Government has lots of experience tracking down assets and confiscating them from it's citizens. Why should it be any more difficult for foreign nationals? They have checking accounts. Their kids go to our public schools. They use our public services. They own houses, cars, and property, and used all of the above.

How much taxpayer money will be sunk into this pit? It is not cheap to feed several million people 3 meals a day.

That statement is made with a false vis-a-vis premise, presupposing the status quo is cost-free. I'll be the last one to claim that illegal immigrants make no contribution to our economy. Some pay taxes (e.g. unavoidable taxes such as sales tax, gas tax, etc.). Since much of their activity is of necessity, invisable to our government, and secondly, because most are in the lower income levels, illegal foreign nationals pay much less in tax revenue than they consume as a group in services. Of course, this differs by nationality, culture, the U.S. region they are located in, etc.. But there is DEFINITELY a high cost being paid, especially by border states such as Texas and California.

Second, security is not cheap. Ask my buddies in Iraq. This is a national security issue.

Third, your argument (regardless of your political orientation) is the claim liberal clap-trap that leftist pols have been feeding us for years regarding crime and punishment in general. First, make the prisons so ungodly inefficient that it costs $100K per year to house an inmate. Then claim the cost is not worth the benefit to society. Guess what, when they actually DO lock 'em up, as they did in the 1990's, we found out that it actually DOES pay to stop crime by locking up criminals. Recidivism dropped like a stone, because the guys stopped going through the turnstyles.

Fourth, we are feeding millions around the world already. What's your problem with SECURING THE BOARDERS? The "meals for millions" argument is a "red herring". What's your agenda?

No he won’t. He’ll just keep trying until he gets through. You have not taken away what he is trying to obtain. It’s been proven time and time again.

That sounds like an argument that one of my college professors once said, ".. if they use the word 'obviously', you know it's definitely no such thing". Proven??! Where and how? Definitely, illegal immigrants come to the USA for more than economic opportunity, e.g. political freedom. But this is arguably NOT the case with many Latin Americans coming across our Southern border. "Mom and the kids" stay behind in the village, and for many of these folks, coming home on holidays and off-work periods is a lifetime routine.

When the cost of illegal immigration exceeds the perceived benefit, illegal immigration will drop like a stone. The USA is serving as a political "pressure relief valve" for both Mexican and our socialist friends in Canada. If our borders weren't so porous, many of these folks would be running a (political) revolution at home.

However, America's a cheap dumping ground for the worlds "best and brightest" (and those most aggressive at seeking either opportunity or a free ride; we get both kinds). As long as this country exists for the world's oppressed, the worlds oppressed will give the oppressors a "free ride", by taking the boat to the states.

We have one, but most US employers would rather save money by hiring illegal aliens.

Um..geez, there are several things one could say here. First, if the illegal aliens are either at home or in a tent prison city, there will be fewer to hire. Second, there is a good case to be made that the supply of LEGAL immigrants (e.g. H1B High Tech workers) have long since outstripped the domestic demand, such that we're now killing off an entire American workforce segment. No, we don't have an effective immigration system. It's arbitrary, biased, tilted towards certain industries (benefiting both Democrat and GOP politian-whor*s alike), and serve both deserving foreign nationals, and American citizens poorly.

FReegards, SFS

46 posted on 05/09/2003 12:10:40 AM PDT by Steel and Fire and Stone
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To: JackelopeBreeder
In addition, they insist that they could violate civil rights of US citizens that reside in the border area if they are used to spy on them and not to only watch undocumented people.

Uh... I don't think that Americans living on the border are too concerned about that, they're too busy protecting their property and their livestock from the hordes of ILLEGAL ALIENS who need to have their butts kicked back home.

47 posted on 05/09/2003 12:29:34 AM PDT by janetgreen
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To: Fledermaus
It's as silly as Hispanics demanding private land owners provide water and shelter for illegals crossing their land.

Interesting how you never see these same Hispanic groups complain about the Mexican government in any way ----and obviously that's where the abuse of these people originates, the reason they're coming here in the first place, dying to get out of their own country. Why won't they complain about things in Mexico? I have a feeling they're on the payroll of that government. Foreign agents of a foreign government.

48 posted on 05/09/2003 6:10:13 AM PDT by FITZ
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To: JackelopeBreeder
the small UAV was christened “Border Hawk”

Job 39:26

"Does the hawk fly by your wisdom, And spread its wings toward the south?"

I sure hope so.

49 posted on 05/09/2003 9:18:36 AM PDT by monkeywrench
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To: Steel and Fire and Stone
We have lots of land. The Federal government took over millions of acres in the 90's with the great Western land grab (i.e. when they outlawed public use of most of the BLM land for things like OHV use and mining.)

I'd rather keep the land for some other use then to turn it into an ever-growing prison, that will cost millions and then billions of taxpayer money.

Use the IRS. They seem to find me every year. The Federal Government has lots of experience tracking down assets and confiscating them from it's citizens. Why should it be any more difficult for foreign nationals? They have checking accounts. Their kids go to our public schools. They use our public services. They own houses, cars, and property, and used all of the above.

The vast majority (80% +) of illegal border crossers do not have bank accounts or pay any taxes. The current law is that the IRS will not share its information with immigration authorities. It will take an act of Congress to do that, and that won't happen because Congress knows that the illegal alien population is helping to support the defunct and outdated Social Security system.

There is no interior immigration enforcement in the United States, so your program would have very little revenue from the apprehended illegal aliens crossing the border.

Add the fact that immigration authorities only apprehend 1/3 of the illegal border crossers; the illegal alien population inside the US would continue to grow unabated.

Second, security is not cheap. Ask my buddies in Iraq. This is a national security issue.

Correct, security is not cheap, but catching 1/3 of the criminals does not stop crime, it only slows it down.

Third, your argument (regardless of your political orientation) is the claim liberal clap-trap that leftist pols have been feeding us for years regarding crime and punishment in general. First, make the prisons so ungodly inefficient that it costs $100K per year to house an inmate. Then claim the cost is not worth the benefit to society. Guess what, when they actually DO lock 'em up, as they did in the 1990's, we found out that it actually DOES pay to stop crime by locking up criminals. Recidivism dropped like a stone, because the guys stopped going through the turnstyles.

Yes, locking up criminals does cut back on crime and recidivism drops. What you fail to understand it that your average border crosser does not consider this a crime or himself a criminal and he will continue to come and look for work, not matter how many times you lock him up. Because he knows, that once he gets through, no one will look for him.

Fourth, we are feeding millions around the world already.

Yes, and we will continue to. Congress will not stop feeding the masses of the world to feed your growing illegal alien population.

What's your problem with SECURING THE BOARDERS? I don't have a problem with securing the borders; in fact I work at it everyday, and not by typing on an Internet forum.

What's your agenda?

My agenda would be to solve the problem of illegal immigration; and locking them all up, will not solve the problem. It has not worked for the drug problem and it won't work for this problem.

That sounds like an argument that one of my college professors once said, ".. if they use the word 'obviously', you know it's definitely no such thing". Proven??! Where and how? Definitely, illegal immigrants come to the USA for more than economic opportunity, e.g. political freedom. But this is arguably NOT the case with many Latin Americans coming across our Southern border. "Mom and the kids" stay behind in the village, and for many of these folks, coming home on holidays and off-work periods is a lifetime routine.

Our country locks up and detains hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens yearly and once returned and released to their home country, they immediately return. There is nothing in their home countries for them to do. No jobs, no survival. So, they head back. If they get arrested again, at least they get three squares a day until they get released and then they can try again. Yes, they have families in their home countries, and that is another reason that continually drives them north.

As long as their countries suck and ours provides the money, they will come.

When the cost of illegal immigration exceeds the perceived benefit, illegal immigration will drop like a stone.

The cost exceeded the benefit long ago. Congress does not care. They will just throw more tax dollars at it to pay for the cheap labor. Look at them now. Hospitals in the South West States are going broke because of the illegal alien problem. What's Congresses fix, throw money at it. Will they stop the illegals from using our health care? NO. They'll just throw our tax money at it and hope someone else will deal with it at a later time.

The USA is serving as a political "pressure relief valve" for both Mexican and our socialist friends in Canada. If our borders weren't so porous, many of these folks would be running a (political) revolution at home.

In the grand scheme of things, Canada and their few thousand illegals are not even a drop in the bucket. Mexico is 97% of the problem.

Now, do we punish the Mexican people for the actions of their government of do we go after the root of the problem, the Mexican Government?

It would be far less costly to force a "regime change" in Mexico City then to house and feed millions of illegal aliens that would have no effect on the problem.

However, America's a cheap dumping ground for the worlds "best and brightest" (and those most aggressive at seeking either opportunity or a free ride; we get both kinds). As long as this country exists for the world's oppressed, the worlds oppressed will give the oppressors a "free ride", by taking the boat to the states.

You're getting closer to the problem. As long as we are a welfare state to the world masses, they will come, no matter how many you lock up. In a lot of case, a prison here is better then conditions were they came from.

Um..geez, there are several things one could say here. First, if the illegal aliens are either at home or in a tent prison city, there will be fewer to hire. Second, there is a good case to be made that the supply of LEGAL immigrants (e.g. H1B High Tech workers) have long since outstripped the domestic demand, such that we're now killing off an entire American workforce segment. No, we don't have an effective immigration system. It's arbitrary, biased, tilted towards certain industries (benefiting both Democrat and GOP politian-whor*s alike), and serve both deserving foreign nationals, and American citizens poorly.

I'm not talking about high tech jobs. We have visa's programs for service jobs and agriculture, but employers prefer to hire illegals. It cuts their bottom line and increases their profits.

50 posted on 05/09/2003 11:04:57 AM PDT by Marine Inspector (DHS BCBP II)
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