Posted on 05/10/2003 5:47:21 AM PDT by the irate magistrate
Saturday, May 10, 2003 Robbers hit bar; patron shoots
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Police charge him with felony assault
By Howard Wilkinson The Cincinnati Enquirer
McKinney
Ordinarily, the more than 500 members of the Citizens on Patrol Program walk the streets of 21 Cincinnati neighborhoods on the lookout for crime, carrying nothing more than a police radio and a cell phone.
Thursday night, at a Northside bar, one of those patrol members, 54-year-old Harold McKinney, found some crime. And he was carrying a semiautomatic pistol.
Police say McKinney shot an 18-year-old Walnut Hills man, Joseph Person, while Person and DeMeico Hester, 18, also of Walnut Hills, were attempting an armed robbery of Junker's Tavern on Langland Avenue shortly after 11 p.m.
Person was shot in the head and remained in critical condition Friday afternoon at University Hospital. Hester, police said, fled the bar after his partner was shot. He was found later hiding in the heating shaft of a coin laundry next door. Person was charged with two counts of aggravated robbery. Hester was charged with one count of aggravated robbery.
But police also charged McKinney with felonious assault and carrying a weapon inside a tavern. He remains in the Hamilton County Justice Center on no bond. He will be arraigned at 9 a.m. today in Hamilton County Municipal Court.
Police said Friday that COPP members are told plainly that they are never to carry weapons and to never intervene in a crime in progress.
"When he did that, he was not a member of COPP,'' said Officer Eric Franz, who trains COPP members in how to patrol their neighborhoods. "He was just a guy in a bar.''
All the COPP recruits are told "over and over again'' that they are not to try to stop criminals themselves: They are supposed to call the police.
The motto of the COPP program is straightforward: "See it, hear it, report it.''
COPP volunteers go through a 20-hour training program that includes 12 hours of classroom work and eight hours of "ride-alongs" with Cincinnati police officers.
Franz said he does not know McKinney well but said he remembers him going through the training.
"I don't know what this guy was thinking," Franz said.
"Whatever he did, he did on his own. It has nothing to do with what has been a successful program. These people have been our eyes and ears."
Thursday night, McKinney was one of a handful of patrons in the bar when two men in hoods that hid their faces walked in waving handguns.
One of them, according to witnesses, pointed a gun at a 68-year-old woman who was tending bar and shouted, "This is a robbery. Nobody move.''
Todman Emmons, 39, of Northside was standing at the bar talking to his roommate and McKinney when the two gunmen entered.
At first, he said, he thought it was a joke, but it became very real when one of the men wheeled around and pointed a gun directly in his face.
"It was all over real quick,'' Emmons said. "The one guy was pointing a gun at me and the other guy was behind the bar, trying to open the register. Then, Hal (McKinney) pulls his gun and shoots.''
Emmons and his roommate held the wounded man on the floor of the bar until police arrived minutes later. Police found the $16 one of the robbers had taken off the bar.
Emmons said he knew McKinney was a member of the neighborhood's citizen patrol. "He's always been a real good member of the community,'' he said.
He has mixed feeling about what transpired at Junker's.
If the armed robbers hadn't been stopped, Emmons said, "a lot of innocent people might have been hurt. It could have been a whole lot worse than it was.
"I can't condone what (McKinney) did,'' he said, "but I can't condemn it either.''
E-mail hwilkinson@enquirer.com
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His program sounds more successful than yours, Officer Franz.
I guess if you're just a guy in the bar you dont have the right to defend yourself.
"I can't condone what (McKinney) did,'' he said, "but I can't condemn it either.''
I condone what (McKinney) did. So does our constitution.
Thing is, even off-duty cops aren't allowed to carry a weapon into a bar, and I think that's a federal law. Other than that, however, the only problem I have with this event is that the two mutts are still breathing.
Whiskey for my men; Beer for my horses.
Cinncinati again!
That city is on my top ten list of potential ground zeros for the coming Civil War when I am in a Cassandra mood.
Best regards,
Yep. That's the rub. Can't have citizens acting on their own instead of being passive sheep. How baaad! Baaaad!
Isn't it funny how the police don't have the duty to protect victims of crime, but in politically-correct jurisdictions they seem to have the duty to protect criminals from their victims! There is this perverse "ideal" of "fairness" where the criminal is supposed to have free reign.
There does have to be a strict line drawn between self-defense or someone coming to the aid of a victim, and vigillantism. There is a difference between looking for trouble and trouble finding you. Just having a gun does not mean you are "looking for trouble."
If a gunman points a gun at someone's face and says, "this is a robbery," it is kind of clear what is happening. And some robberies end with the criminal killing the victims so there won't be any witnesses. There are those punks who wouldn't blink before shooting someone over $20 or just because they "felt like it." Such things will be common as long as the establishment has boundless compassion for violent sociopaths while being indifferent or even hostile towards the welfare of peaceful citizens.
But let one of the 'serfs' use deadly force to defend himself and he winds up as the bad guy and in jail.
I hope this guy sues EVERYONE of the statist Nazis SOBs involved in his arrest, and files state and federal charges for violating his civil Rights.
There is no such federal law, and I'm not aware of any state laws to the same effect.
Many states that "allow" the serfs to carry guns, ban it in bars, which is sort of silly. A few states don't ban citizens carrying in bars.
Nonetheless, it is a citizen's Constitutional Right to carry where he or she damn well pleases. It is also his Right to defend himself.
You don't surrender your Rights simply because you walk into a bar, and you certainly don't surrender your Rights just because your state is run by the Nazi party.
If this would have happenened in Florida (assuming that the shooter had a concealed weapon permit) he could have been charged with carring a concealed weapon into a bar which is a misdemeaner. Deadly force can be used by anyone under Florida law to stop or prevent a forcible felony. The perp in this case committed aggravated assault (a forcible felony) by pointing the gun at the bar tender for starters.
In most parts of Florida (unless the guy was drunk), I doubt that he would have been charged with anything.
The concern seems to be about what happens if someone carrying gets drunk. However they don't apply that rule to the cops, which is bassackwards, and every so often some cop goes on a bender and then gets into a drinking related gun fight. If there is any bar rule at all, it ought to be that while you carry you don't get drunk (say to the same standard as for driving an automobile).
And what's wrong with that? Other folks' lives were in danger.
McKinney did the right thing, IMO. Franz et al. need to back off and let this quietly die down, but unfortunately it sounds as though they have a vendetta now...
As long as he was at it, it's a shame that a body bag wasn't required...
We can be a weird state at times. But we have got the "self-defense" and "good samaritan laws" down cold.
(1) Defense of self;
(2) Defense of others; and
(3) To arrest a dangerous felon.
This guy had them all.
The Rules
(1) SELF DEFENSE
If a person has a reasonable belief that he is in imminent danger of unlawful bodily harm, he may use that amount of force which is reasonably necessary to prevent such harm. He may use deadly force only if has a reasonable belief that he is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.
- The victim has no duty to retreat.
(2) DEFENSE OF OTHERS
You can use the same amount of force to defend another person as you could to defend yourself where you reasonably believe the other person is in immediate danger of bodily harm.
(3) LAW ENFORCEMENT DEFENSES A private citizen may use deadly force to arrest only if a dangerous felony has been committed and the person against whom the force has been used has in fact committed the felony (private citizen better be right).
The problem, of course, is that LE thinks it has a monopoly on the right to shoot at people.
He has mixed feeling about what transpired at Junker's.
If the armed robbers hadn't been stopped, Emmons said, "a lot of innocent people might have been hurt. It could have been a whole lot worse than it was.
"I can't condone what (McKinney) did,'' he said, "but I can't condemn it either.''
I remember a story a cop friend of mine told me back in the 1960's: While on patrol, he came upon two young thugs mugging an old man and beating the old guy unmercifully.
My friend used his nightstick to clobber the two perps.
During the trial, the old man took the stand, and when questioned by the perps' lawyer, agreed that the cop might have been a little hard on the "boys."
When the victims of a crime are so squemish, it doesn't pay to be a hero.
Give the other seven lawyers flourescent hats.
Hey, I like a good lawyer joke as much as the next guy. But from the previous post you can see that I am a lawyer and agree with you on this issue. There are many, many conservative lawyers who would likely agree with you on most issues. Isn't Ted Olson a lawyer? Isn't John Ashcroft a lawyer? Generalizing is a bad thing. It's grossly inaccurate and unfair to assume that all lawyers are liberal trial lawyers.
Give the other seven lawyers flourescent hats.
Hey, I like a good lawyer joke as much as the next guy. But from the previous post you can see that I am a lawyer and agree with you on this issue. There are many, many conservative lawyers who would likely agree with you on most issues. Isn't Ted Olson a lawyer? Isn't John Ashcroft a lawyer? Generalizing is a bad thing. It's grossly inaccurate and unfair to assume that all lawyers are liberal trial lawyers.
I thought there already was an IQ test for jurors - - if it is higher than 60 your services are not required.
The responsibility for ones self preservation is self. Dial 991 and die as Mrs Ruth did. She put her faith in the police and 911.
Mrs Ruth Price DIED HARD. Now it is Ronyale White of Chicago.
American Citizens (especially the poor) should be asking why politicans are violating the Second Amendment rights of the poor and handicap of their self defense rights?
NO ONE SHOULD EVER DIE WITHOUT A FIGHTING CHANCE.
Other women who know how Mrs. Price was lied too by the government false statements that 911 will protect you.
*Lois Joyner Cannady died dialing 9-11*
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/697821/posts cut and paste
* Women who defend their sons daughters and husbands *
Cut and paste load to Second Amendment Sisters http://www.sas-aim.org/home.htm
Bad guys don't live by the rules. Here is Mrs. Ruth Price story and I would think that you would agree she disagrees with this leftist extremist, anti-gun views. Here is Mrs. Price story. Another disarmed voice.
Mrs. Price speaks directly to the gun control extremists.
Requires Audio setup, downloads in 30 seconds, however, well worth your wait for this message.
Cut and paste load http://www.geekswithguns.com/audio/911_call_no_address.ram
Next Picture from Mother's of the past, speaking to soccer moms of today.
cut and paste load http://www.guntruths.com/images/1ST_MMM_MARCH.gif
Have we forgotten already.
Women's talk about self defense.
The best news link on the planet for self defense.
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Who needs protection? The women of our lives, and our children, the poor who have little police protection, our grandparents, and parents, our wife, and our daughters need the right to self-defense at home and on the street. 2.2 million felons in jail, 3.5 million felons on probation, and 14 million drug abusers looking for their next fix. Do you think they are living in your city? Guns save lives. Gun free zones are killing zones for criminals. Most anti gun liberals are one mugging away from conservative views.
Dail 911 and die is more than a cute saying. It is life or death.
The actual 911 call is Mrs Price voice. Take this recording to every MMM and anti gun rally in the nation. Perhaps the MMM anti guns will be the next Mrs Price.
Another Mrs Price story in Columbus OHIO -- Dialed 911 and Died.
Mrs. Turner's story. Restraining orders, Killer telling police he was going to kill her, begging for life for several minutes, nor did phone call to 911 save this woman's life.
Cut and paste load http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b28997102ad.htm
What is your self defense plan when the bad guy shows up at your door?
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"Police say a 68-year-old female bartender and five patrons of Junker's Tavern on Langland Avenue were found shot to death shortly after 11 p.m.
Robbery is suspected, but Police have no leads!"
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