Blair gives religious employers the right to sack gay workers

news.independent.co.uk ^ | May 11, 2003 | Paul Waugh

[Polycarp]

Blair gives religious employers the right to sack gay workers

By Paul Waugh

11 May 2003

Tony Blair was accused of caving in to evangelical Christians last night after it emerged that new government legislation will allow faith schools, churches, hospices and other religious employers to sack lesbian and gay staff.

Equal rights campaigners were furious when they discovered that regulations intended to combat discrimin- ation in the workplace contain wide-ranging exemptions for any employer "with an ethos based on religion or belief".

The Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement said that the move would institutionalise homophobia in a way that "makes Section 28 look like a tea party". Others claimed that the exemptions exposed the "dangerous" influence church groups have over the Prime Minister.

The 2003 Employment Equality Regulations were originally drafted by ministers with the aim of achieving a historic breakthrough in combating harassment and bias in the workplace on grounds of sexuality or religion.

Drawn up to comply with an EU directive on workers' rights, they were meant for the first time to give protection to Muslims and to gays. An employer found to discriminate when hiring, promoting, demoting or training staff would be in breach of the law.

But The Independent on Sunday has learned that the statutory instruments slipped out to Parliament last week were watered down following direct intervention by Downing Street. A Whitehall source said the decision was made "at the highest level" and that Barbara Roche, the equalities minister, had been overruled.

One key clause inserted into the regulations states that an exemption applies when an employer acts "so as to comply with the doctrines of the religion – or so as to avoid conflicting with the strongly held religious convictions of a significant number of the religion's followers".

The wording of the clause is almost identical to that submitted by the Church of England. The Archbishops' Council's submission, which was leaked to the IoS, states that an exemption should apply "to comply with the doctrines of the religion or avoid offending the religious susceptibilities of a significant number of its followers".

Other major changes to the original draft, allowing discrimination against atheists or others who do not share the religious beliefs of their employer, were made following strong lobbying from evangelical groups. One of the biggest loopholes allows an employer to dismiss or fail to hire an individual if he is "not satisfied" that they fit his own "ethos based on religion or belief".

Critics claim that this would allow firms such as Stagecoach, run by Scottish evangelist Brian Souter, or Vardy, the North-east car dealership owned by millionaire Christian Peter Vardy, to discriminate freely.

Evan Harris, the Liberal Democrats' equality spokesman, condemned the new regulations, pointing out that they would actually weaken current employment rights of gay men and lesbians by institutionalising in law justifications for discrimination.

"When faced with pressure from those who wish to continue to harass and discriminate against people on the basis of lawful private behaviour or their sexuality in circumstances where sexuality is patently irrelevant to their ability to do the job, the Government has simply caved in," he said.

Keith Porteous Wood of the National Secular Society said the regulations were a "witch-hunter's dream come true". "Organisations with a 'religious ethos' employ around 200,000 people, most of them in jobs paid for out of the public purse. This includes over 100,000 teaching posts in faith schools," he said. "The Government has given in to religious pressure at every stage of this process."

The Deputy Prime Minister's Office said that religious employers were a special case "as they bring diversity to public life and delivery of services".

"We listened very carefully to responses in the last consultation and on reflection we decided it was right in very limited circumstances that the Government wouldn't interfere in matters of religious doctrine or strongly held religious convictions," said a spokeswoman.

[Polycarp]

What's the situation here in the USA? Does it vary by state?

[Torie]

This law seems rather difficult to apply in application. How does one determine which outfit is "religious" and which is not? What counts as a religious scruple?

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Good move by Tony!

[xm177e2]

Drawn up to comply with an EU directive on workers' rights, they were meant for the first time to give protection to Muslims and to gays. An employer found to discriminate when hiring, promoting, demoting or training staff would be in breach of the law.

But what if a devout Muslim doesn't want to hire a gay man (the throne of Allah shakes every time a man mounts another man, you know--sodomy is completely forbidden in Islam) or a gay man doesn't want to hire a devout Muslim who thinks homosexuality is evil? This law isn't going to protect Muslims and gays, it's just going to give them new problems.

[Asclepius]

Tony Blair was accused of caving in to evangelical Christians last night after it emerged that new government legislation will allow faith schools, churches, hospices and other religious employers to sack lesbian and gay staff.

Everyone has the right to fire gay employees. Especially if they are incompetent or unqualified etc. So what? Even a gay person would fire another gay person if he or she or s/he were incompetent. What would really be interesting is if Blair gave quasi-holy religioniods the right to sack ugly people, or short people, or people who can't parallel park, or people who stand to close to you when they talk etc.

Now that would require political courage. And Christians would love him for it, because they like to pick and choose who gets to participate in the Kingdom etc. Church for them is like an exclusive country club or something. Where are sinners supposed to go anymore? It's really sort of depressing.

[RAT Patrol]

Thank you Tony! No one should be forced to violate their own conscience.

[ZULU]

I believe that sexual orientation is not considered in the same category as race and religion on the Federal Level, although steps are being taken in COngress to protect the rights of Sodomites.

In some "enlightened" states, there ARE laws providing equal protection to Sodomites - like in the People's Republic of New Jersey, possibly Kalipornia, New York, Taxachusetts and Faryland.

[GoLightly]

You could start with churches, specifically church run schools. In the US, the right wings argument against vouchers had to do with the state injecting secularism, humanism & atheism into faith based education because of "public" funding.

[cookcounty]

If Tony keeps this up, I'm going to join his socialist Labour Party!

[TheCrusader]

Ain't "homophobia" a lovely word? I especially enjoy how it veils the real gamut of people's feelings regarding homosexuality. Such as disgust, revulsion, moral indignation, psychic shock, sadness, religious scandal, and infuriation. Just about everything but fear or phobia. But then again, those who would force the vast majority of heterosexuals into embracing this human debauchery must act quite cleverly to hide the truth.

[cookcounty]

"Where are sinners supposed to go anymore?

They can go to church tomorrow and ask for help in turning away from sinful acts.

....turning away from sin is pretty important, right?

[cookcounty]

"Ain't "homophobia" a lovely word?"

I say we coin a few new o-phobias ourselves:

How about Truth-o-phobes, or AIDS-o-phobes, or Paul-o-phobes, or New Testament-o-phobes or church-o-phobes?

[Asclepius]

They can go to church tomorrow and ask for help in turning away from sinful acts.

... Yikes. Church as service provider. I wonder how the Nazerene would feel were He to see what had become of his legacy ...

[TheCrusader]

"if Blair gave quasi-holy religioniods the right to sack ugly people, or short people, or people who can't parallel park, or people who stand to close to you when they talk etc. Now that would require political courage. And Christians would love him for it, because they like to pick and choose who gets to participate in the Kingdom etc".

The bitterness of the homosexual. My, how angry these people are underneath the facade of their carefully crafted description of "gay". But then, any group of people who commit suicide at the highest rate, and suffer the greatest degree of alcoholism, and who have the highest rate of "partner abuse", must be a wee bit angry under the surface. Perhaps the perverts of the world should take a look at the perversions they practice as the reason for their self hatred, and stop blaming the disgust they receive from the normal people who use their bodies according to their design.

[AKA Elena]

I recently was struck by a few paragraphs from Dean Koontz's novel, Fear Nothing.

I become so frustrated in trying to state and to condemn what is accepted as "normal" in societal mores, and which strangles our own good conscience by LAW and can be portrayed by a flat horizontal line of black which now has become a misshapen jagged line penetrated by shades of gray and becoming less clear every day because of todays' "degraded standards" so far into the gray in definition that the clarity of that straight black line being blurred has made all modalities of life acceptable no matter that they are various stages of depravity or commonplace sinfulness, and are now protected in the concept of Liberty, as opposed to our once having laws which kept us in cotton batting and lack of worry about such drastic shifts in the public conscience. I resent being called an extremist or fanatical about my beliefs in the correctness of Natural Law, even though that is the Foundation of Catholicism and many other religions and IS UNDENIABLY the law of Our Maker.

I have thought to make a separate post on this matter, starting with the ORIGINAL Hippocratic Oath taken by doctors:

"The Hippocratic Oath"

I SWEAR by Apollo the physician and Aesculapius, and Hygiea, and Panacea, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgment, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation.
To consider him who taught me this Art as dear to me as my parent, to share my substance with him, and to relieve his necessities if required; to look upon his offspring as equivalent to my own brothers, and to teach them this Art, if they wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation.
And that by precept, lecture, and every other form of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according to the law of medicine, but to none others.
I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients and abstain from whatever is harmful and mischievous.
I will give no deadly medicine to anyone if asked, nor suggest any such advice; likewise, I will not give a pessary to a woman to induce abortion.
I will live my life and practice my art with purity and holiness.
I will not cut persons suffering from 'the stone', but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this skill.
Whatever houses I enter, I will enter for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption, and especially from the seduction of females or males, of free persons or slaves.
Whatever I see or hear in connection with my professional practice or not in the life of men, which should not be made public, I will not divulge, considering that all such knowledge should remain secret.
As long as I continue to keep this Oath inviolate, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the Art, respected by all men, at all times. But if I should trespass and violate this Oath, may the opposite be my lot.

This is an astounding look into common correctness in centuries before Christianity and in days of beliefs in gods and godesses (sheer paganism).

To get back to the words from the Dean Koontz book, these paragraphs say a great deal, while only being one small portion of one chapter within the book, and struck me as a word for today:

Prior to the erection of this monument, a simple bronze statue of Junipero Serra stood on the plinth at the center of the fountain for over a hunderd years. He was a Spanish missionary to the Indians of California, two and a half centuries ago: the man who established the network of missions that are now landmark buildings, public treasures, and magnets for history minded tourists.

Bobby's parents and a group of like-minded citizens had formed a committee to press for the banishment of the Junipero Serra statue on the grounds that a monument to a religious figure did not belong in a park created and maintained with public funds. Separation of Church and State. The United States Constitution, they said, was clear on this issue.

Wisteria Jane (Milbury) Snow -- "Wissy" to her friends, "Mom" to me -- in spite of being a scientist and rationalist, led the opposing committee that wished to preserve the statue of Serra. "When a society erases its past, for whatever reason," she said, "it cannot have a future."

This simple quotation from the book is that which I think upon in a dozen or more forms every day and ponder and am stumped as how to step back out of the quicksand.

[Asclepius]

The bitterness of the homosexual. My, how angry these people are underneath the facade of their carefully crafted description of "gay". But then, any group of people who commit suicide at the highest rate, and suffer the greatest degree of alcoholism, and who have the highest rate of "partner abuse", must be a wee bit angry under the surface. Perhaps the perverts of the world should take a look at the perversions they practice as the reason for their self hatred, and stop blaming the disgust they receive from the normal people who use their bodies according to their design.

This must be that Christian love you hear Christians talk about. How it inspires me--nay, how it drives me into the indissoluable embrace of my Lord and savior. /sarcasm

The Nazerene did not rebuke Thomas, oh you who know so little about your own faith. Rather, he simply, and lovingly, showed him His wounds. Yet you would chastise the admittedly faithless for their lack of faith! Learn to discern, angry one. Learn to discern.

[TheCrusader]

"Yikes. Church as service provider. I wonder how the Nazerene would feel were He to see what had become of his legacy ..."

The "Nazarene" founded a church: "Thou art Peter the rock, and on this rock I found my church." (Mathew 16:18). The Church grew: "When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, (Acts 15:4).

[Asclepius]

The "Nazarene" founded a church: "Thou art Peter the rock, and on this rock I found my church." (Mathew 16:18). The Church grew: "When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, (Acts 15:4).

Yes? So? Satan can recite scripture, angry one. The scriptures say as much--because like any good rabbi disputing with another, he does. My point is simply that in this era, the most benighted, most backward, most heathen mission field imaginable is the Church, or what's left of it because of people like, say, you. Church as service provider indeed.

[TheCrusader]

"The Nazerene did not rebuke Thomas, oh you who know so little about your own faith. Rather, he simply, and lovingly, showed him His wounds. Yet you would chastise the admittedly faithless for their lack of faith! Learn to discern, angry one. Learn to discern".

I chastise nobody for their faithlessness, I simply am repulsed by those who pervert their nature in filthy, disgusting acts of sexual debauchery, and then try to turn the issue around into one of faith rather than immorality and debauchery. But turn the issue around you must, lest you lose all credibility in the obvious filth that you wallow in. If you want to know what Jesus said about sinners, and not about Thomas' faith, He said: "But I tell you NO! Unless you repent you will all likewise perish". (Luke 13:5). Jesus affirmed the eternal damnation of Sodom & Gomorah: "Likewise as it was in the days of Lot--they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all-- " (Luke 17:29). What was the sin of Sodom that brought about eternal damnation? Homosexual perversion: "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire". (Jude 7).

[B Knotts]

Sounds to me as if the rumors are true (about Mr. Blair wanting to convert to the Catholic Church).

This is a great and courageous move, as freedom of religion is no longer in vogue in much of Western Europe (or in Canada, for that matter).

[Polycarp]

Don't feed the Trolls.

[Polycarp]

I think his meeting with the Pope had a profound effect upon him.

[TheCrusader]

"Yes? So? Satan can recite scripture, angry one. The scriptures say as much--because like any good rabbi disputing with another, he does. My point is simply that in this era, the most benighted, most backward, most heathen mission field imaginable is the Church, or what's left of it because of people like, say, you. Church as service provider indeed".

Satan perverted Scripture, just as homosexuals pervert human nature. Jesus never debated with men, he spoke from the express authority of God, and he condemend men who spoke on human authority: "About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught. The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?" So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; (John 7: 14-18).

[gcruse]

But then, any group of people who commit suicide at the highest rate, and suffer the greatest degree of alcoholism, and who have the highest rate of "partner abuse", must be a wee bit angry under the surface.

And yet there are bible-thumpers who think someone would choose to live a life
so depraved and scorned.  How do you explain taking on misery like this if it isn't
something deeper than choice?

[DLfromthedesert]

Heed the words of Polycarp: STOP feeding the troll. It gets nowhere; just a waste of energy.

[DLfromthedesert]

It is sometimes deeper than choice. The women I know who have participated in that lifestyle were abused as children (several have been healed and are now happily married).

Some of the men I know were, likewise, abused; so sometimes the choice takes place deep in the psyche.

I pray for these people and love them. It's the people who are advancing an agenda that will sicken the whole society are the ones I abhor.

[Clint N. Suhks]

How do you explain taking on misery like this if it isn't something deeper than choice?

Because paraphilic disorders make people have irrational behaviors.

[Clint N. Suhks]

My point is simply that in this era, the most benighted, most backward, most heathen mission field imaginable is the Church

Oh really? Is that why they "the Church" are trying to help homosexuals out of their disorder? Do you say the same when “the Church” tries to help the homeless, alcoholics, incestuals, drug addicts…or are you just a hypocrite protecting your pet perversion?

[AmericanVictory]

The situation is that the homosexual propagandists and agenda drivers want to take away the right of any believing person of faith in any major religion (and most minor ones) to believe and say that homosexual practices are sinful.

[AmericanVictory]

It's hard to think of anything less difficult. Must people know a religion when they see or experience one and those who believe are known by their faith, which is not hard to observe at all.

[Torie]

Sort of like porn eh? One knows it when one sees it? In any event, if such a law were passed in the US, it would be litigation city. Lawyers would love it to death.

[AmericanVictory]

You could not be more completely wrong. Christ came into the world to save sinners. All that is required is that they profess their faith and a willingness to turn from sin and live in Him. And in fact there are whole ministries of former homosexuals, many now happily married with children and living out of that sinful behavior.

[Jorge]

While I generally believe in equals rights under the law for all people, including homosexuals I tend to agree with Tony Blair's decision.

I don't believe it is right to force Religious employers to hire people who are opposed to their beliefs, or claim an identity that contradicts their faith.

That would be like the Govt telling the NAACP that they must hire KKK members to be on their staff.

[AmericanVictory]

Well, not quite the same. Most churches, temples and mosques are right out in the open and very observable. You can only "not see" them if you don't look or don't want to see. It's kind of like the council and the blind man who was healed at the pool.

[Criminal Number 18F]

the throne of Allah shakes every time a man mounts another man, you know--sodomy is completely forbidden in Islam

Yeah, well that might be what they say they believe, but it sure as hell isn't what they do. Buggery is all but institutionalised in many places in the mideast, including Kuwait, Arabia, Afghanistan.

Our docs had some statistic that the typical Afghan male had his first sexual experience between 10 and 12 -- with an adult male relative.

No wonder their country is a mess.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[American in Israel]

And Christians would love him for it, because they like to pick and choose who gets to participate in the Kingdom etc. Church for them is like an exclusive country club or something. Where are sinners supposed to go anymore? It's really sort of depressing.

Perhaps it is because you have no idea what you are talking about, but hey, don't let that stop you.

[American in Israel]

One key clause inserted into the regulations states that an exemption applies when an employer acts "so as to comply with the doctrines of the religion – or so as to avoid conflicting with the strongly held religious convictions of a significant number of the religion's followers".

Yeah, it would be pretty hard to get the parishiners to come back to church after the new "Pastor" decided to teach on fisting instead of fasting on sunday.

[American in Israel]

One key clause inserted into the regulations states that an exemption applies when an employer acts "so as to comply with the doctrines of the religion – or so as to avoid conflicting with the strongly held religious convictions of a significant number of the religion's followers".

Yeah, it would be pretty hard to get the parishiners to come back to church after the new "Pastor" decided to teach on fisting instead of fasting on sunday.

Imagine the outcry if Homosexual clubs were required to hire Christians. Hey if we are going to regulate quotas, 25% of all homosexual business's employees should be Christians.

[longtermmemmory]

try moralphobia for those who fear having deviant behavior labeled wrong.

[xm177e2]

Well, you know what the gay Muslims say: "If the Throne is a-rockin', don't come a-knockin'!"

[American in Israel]

The Nazerene did not rebuke Thomas, oh you who know so little about your own faith. Rather, he simply, and lovingly, showed him His wounds.

Then let me show you your errors, lovingly, right from the Bible.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spriit of our God.

So, feel better now? It seems that all of the above are welcomed into the Church, contrare to your statement that they are not. The Church IS X-homos, X-fornicators, X-thieves ect...

It also shows that homosexuality and transvestism, along with all of the other vices are choices, not a genetic dispostion. So the choice is left to you, homosexuality, or Jesus. An easy choice I would think, unless of course, you are a God-0-phobe. If you detest the turn or burn approach, as I do, perhaps you should try the repent and be set free version that this scripture clearly shows?

Learn to discern, angry one. Learn to discern.

Learn to read angry one, learn to read.

[American in Israel]

Great post!

[American in Israel]

How do you explain taking on misery like this if it isn't something deeper than choice?

How can you explain addiction to heroin or kleptomania? Perversion, (sin in old english speak), is addicting just like most other insanitys. The road from Homosexuality is not as hard as the road from heroin, but there are many who have made it.

[restornu]

Thank you Tony! No one should be forced to violate their own conscience.

That is the heart of it!

No one should be forced to violate their own conscience.

This is what these PC groups are doing! They are forceing upon those who love their God anxiety to live according to their government PC and violate what their Lord commands.

Praise the Lord that Tony Blair gets it!

The Lord said to "Love One Another!" NOT to "Submit to Another!"

[Asclepius]

Satan perverted Scripture,

How odd that gospel accounts disagree with you. Rabbi Jesus answered the accuser respectfully, thoughtfully, saying yes, but it is also written--it reads like Talmud, the midrash of Rabbis Jesus and Satan, one might say.

The adversary is also a creature of Hashem, oh you who needs to actually read his bible. He even appears before His throne (Job); Hashem himself addresses him respectfully.

Satan is far older than you are, smarter than you are, and he can read. You would do well to consider this and pray for the Lord's protection and mercy.

just as homosexuals pervert human nature.

How do they do this? And how does this license you to usurp the throne of Hashem to sit in jugdment of us all? You would do better to pray for mercy for us all rather than seek to exclude any element of the divine plan; you simply do not want to find yourself opposing the Lord of this universe.

Jesus never debated with men,

What did he call the scribes and pharasees? What was the nature of his dispute with John the Babtist (Yachanon the Immerser)? What did he say about the essenes (the so-called sons of light)? Apparently you read a very different bible than the rest of us.

he spoke from the express authority of God,

Yes? So?

and he condemend men who spoke on human authority:

This alone should give you pause, you human who presumes to speak for Hashem. Your own words convict you, yet again.

"About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught. The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?" So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; (John 7: 14-18).

This is relevant how, precisely?

[Asclepius]

It also shows that homosexuality and transvestism, along with all of the other vices are choices, not a genetic dispostion. So the choice is left to you, homosexuality, or Jesus. An easy choice I would think, unless of course, you are a God-0-phobe. If you detest the turn or burn approach, as I do, perhaps you should try the repent and be set free version that this scripture clearly shows?

You honestly believe that these texts you cite license you to behave in un-Christ-like ways to the people of this world? You believe that to be a Christian, a Christian must be like you, as opposed to like Christ? This is a fascinating interpretation, don't you think?

[American in Israel]

You honestly believe that you are in a position to interpret what I do in Christianity? I have presented you with a choice that can lead to freedom. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't dislike you for your choice. One of my friends is an X-homosexual. You are looking at the world with hate colored glasses my friend and are projecting.

I just chose a scripture that answered both your false accusation and your path to freedom, while addressing your acusations of Christians not knowing their own scriptures. I figured three for one was a efficient choice. Now you can hate that path, that is your choice. But to accuse me of being un-Christ like by quoting scripture that does not condemn, but shows you the way to freedom? You do not understand Christ at all. Christ died that you might have the freedom of that choice. How you choose is up to you, you just have to eat the fruit from the tree you pick.

Blessings. Have fun in life for as long as it lasts, then your choice is eternal.

[Asclepius]

Oh really? Is that why they "the Church" are trying to help homosexuals out of their disorder? Do you say the same when ?the Church? tries to help the homeless, alcoholics, incestuals, drug addicts?or are you just a hypocrite protecting your pet perversion?

I'm not talking about homosexuals. I'm talking about this fallen, backward, human institution that calls itself the Church. You say it helps the homeless, provides services for the community. Yeah? Fine. So does the Lion's Club and the Shriners.

Where, however, is Christ? Where is the Spirit? All that's left is this wasteland of the soul where once stood the Apostle's rock.

The salt has lost its savor. The light has gone out. The Spirit has left the building because all that's left is a building, a building in ruins. Our homosexual brothers and sisters would do well to seek elsewhere for their salvation.

[Asclepius]

You do not understand Christ at all.

One of us doesn't, to be sure.

Perhaps you should consider well the parable of the wheat and the tares.