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Tennessee School District Sued Over Ties to Evangelistic Crusade
FOX News via AP | 5/12/03 | Unknown

Posted on 05/12/2003 8:37:48 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants

MAYNARDVILLE, Tenn. — Every year, hundreds of Union County students take a field trip for the soul. Children are excused from class, loaded onto school buses with teachers and sent to a three-day Christian revival.

"I am going to ask you a question," an evangelical leader recently yelled to a sea of students ready for their field trip. "If you are glad to be here, say amen!"

With the ardor of a pep rally, the students shouted back: "AAAA-men!"

Not everyone is so enthusiastic.

Fourteen-year-old India Tracy said she was harassed and attacked by classmates for nearly three years after she declined to attend Baptist Pastor Gary Beeler's annual crusade because of her family's pagan religion.

Her family has filed a federal lawsuit against Union County schools, claiming the crusade, prayers over the loudspeaker, a Christmas nativity play, a Bible handout and other proselytizing activities in the rural school system have become so pervasive they are a threat to safety and religious liberty.

Union County officials say the system is neutral when it comes to religious activities, pointing out that the crusade is voluntary, teachers chaperone on their own time and school buses are operated by private contractors.

"We do not endorse, promote or prohibit it," said school spokesman Wayne Goforth.

District officials say the crusade, now in its sixth year, is like any other field trip, with parental permission required to let the children attend for two hours a day over three days. On the crusade's final day this year, April 30, more than 1,300 of the school system's 3,000 students attended.

"All local boards of education have the authority to allow students to voluntarily attend these types of events," said Christy Ballard, legal counsel to the Tennessee Department of Education.

But, she added, "it is very clear in the statute that they can't harass a student or coerce them to participate ... and, of course, they can't be school-sponsored."

Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the Freedom Forum's First Amendment Center in Arlington, Va., said school officials and Christian leaders in Union County need a "crash course on the meaning of the First Amendment -- especially the part that separates church from state."

Beeler, 63, who lives and preaches in Union County, said he has been contacted by communities around the country wanting to set up similar crusades, and sees nothing wrong with children getting time off from school to attend them.

"The principals, the teachers, the bus drivers all have told us that they have less behavior problems after this crusade than they do before. So that tells us the positive effect," he said.

India said she was called "Satan worshipper" and accused of eating babies when it was revealed she was a pagan. She said she was taunted, found slurs painted over her locker and was injured when classmates assaulted her and slammed her head into the locker.

The lawsuit said school officials took no disciplinary action. In a May 2 legal response, school officials said they acted appropriately, denied the attacks happened, or said they were unaware of them.

Paganism is an ancient religious tradition that embraces kinship with nature, positive morality and the idea that there is both a female and male side of Deity.

After Christmas break in early 2002, India said three boys chased her down a hall at Horace Maynard Middle School, grabbed her by the neck and said, "You better change your religion or we'll change it for you."

She broke free and fled into the girls' bathroom. A teacher stopped the boys from following her, the lawsuit said.

"That was pretty much the last straw because she was terrified," said India's father, Greg Tracy.

The Tracys took India out of school on Feb. 26, 2002.

A straight-A student, she belonged to the leadership-service organization Beta Club, chess club, and band. She was the only girl on the middle school football team.

Now she takes Internet courses at home and hopes to transfer to a public school in Knoxville, 25 miles away.

"When was it too hard? I don't know," India said. "On a couple of occasions it was too hard and then it got easier and then it started getting bad again and I would come home bawling my eyes out."


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; Philosophy; US: Tennessee
KEYWORDS: aclu; antichristian; demonworship; education; evangelism; faith; fieldtrip; homeschoollist; pagan; religiousfreedom; teacher; whinecountry
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To: Belial
The right to be a Christian isn't in danger.

Tell it to the kids in public schools. Tell it to the people in communities where they want to pray over the intercom at a football game. The right to be openly Christian is being chipped away little by little.

101 posted on 05/12/2003 10:55:49 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Forced neutrality of the state, particularly schools in more liberal area, is more anti-religion that truly neutral.

I think hostility towards individual practice of religion in schools has been masked as being neutral. It isn't neutral.

For example, someone wants to pray while in school. Or maybe they want to carry around bibles, maybe even hand them out. If similar practices are allowed (speaking, carrying books), but those are disallowed simply because they're religious then the school isn't neutral, it's hostile and that's a violation of rights.

OTOH, if the school uses tax money to buy bibles for students, or the teacher leads the class in prayer, that isn't neutral either.

I would prefer government stayed truly neutral. Hostility towards free practice of religion is equally as wrong as state promoted religion. Then again, I don't even advocate public school so it would be a moot issue.

Forced neutrality of the state, the teachers, the principals

The state has no right to a religion, or any other right. It is merely an instrument of the people to uphold individuals rights. Teachers and principles, when on the clock are agents of the state. If they want to pray or whatever on their lunch, etc.. that's their right. Leading the class in prayer while on the taxpayer dime and representing the state is way wrong.

and the students.....

That's another story. Their right to practice their religion must be upheld.

102 posted on 05/12/2003 10:55:56 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: jimt
You're getting even more desperate Jimt.

No, clearly the government should be sponsoring religious events

Having the government sponsor something, in the midst of all this paranoia, is actually the one thing that is unconstitutional.

Mandatory prayer at every stoplight and crosswalk

Ditto.

First period in all schools to consist of mandatory prayer

This is getting redundent.

I understand you are attempting to be sarcastic like me. Its funny, but unfortunately that doesn't change the reality that you are still wrong. No one is saying that the government can, or should force a religion. That is not the case with this article. In fact its the opposite, that you are trying to use the government to stop individuals who work for the government from practicing their religion volutarily, without government funds, off of work time. It may not be PC or feel good, but this is a 1st Amendment issue if there ever was one.

The sad truth is, the only one trying to force a religion(Atheism)-through-the-state in this case, is your side.

Leave these people alone.

103 posted on 05/12/2003 11:01:51 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: Tax-chick; Blood of Tyrants; Michael.SF.
I know from my own experience and what I hear from middle school girls today. It's one of the most important of the many reasons my children don't go to school!

You really need to get out more.

104 posted on 05/12/2003 11:04:01 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
You really need to get out more.

So that my daughters can be picked on in school, for their religion, their height, their clothes, their personalities? Puh-leeze!

We get out plenty, but not to schools, thank God!

105 posted on 05/12/2003 11:29:28 AM PDT by Tax-chick (That's right - you're not from Oklahoma ...)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
In fact its the opposite, that you are trying to use the government to stop individuals who work for the government from practicing their religion volutarily, without government funds, off of work time. It may not be PC or feel good, but this is a 1st Amendment issue if there ever was one. The sad truth is, the only one trying to force a religion(Atheism)-through-the-state in this case, is your side. Leave these people alone.

My sarcasm was in response to yours about the 32nd amendment found by Libertarians.

These folks are using a government school to promote a religious event. They are doing it for a particular sect of Christians. They are not doing it for Catholics, or Jews, or Muslims, or...

By doing so they are lending the weight of the government school to a particular sect's teachings. It's hard to imagine a more clear violation of the first amendment, unless they held it on school time and forced everybody to go.

Meetings of this type are often held after school is out for the year. That violates no one's rights, does not lend school authority to the meeting, and is clearly appropriate. If they did it that way, I'd be all for it.

106 posted on 05/12/2003 12:57:04 PM PDT by jimt (Testimony and witnessing in every home room !)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
freedom of religion bump for later reading
107 posted on 05/12/2003 1:07:40 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: jimt
I got your sarcasm. It was good, it just underlied a basic misunderstanding of the points of the pro-posters vs the ney-poster.

Meetings of this type are often held after school is out for the year. That violates no one's rights, does not lend school authority to the meeting, and is clearly appropriate. If they did it that way, I'd be all for it.

Well, we seem to be coming to the same conclusion from two different points. I would be against this if it was forced, but don't know where you think this is government endorsing when these are free people being religious on there own time. "Union County officials say the system is neutral when it comes to religious activities, pointing out that the crusade is voluntary, teachers chaperone on their own time and school buses are operated by private contractors."

Sounds independent to me. Where are the 1st Amendment right's violations? Unless, of course, this were banned by the state.

108 posted on 05/12/2003 1:14:55 PM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: Missus
"According to the article, only 1300 of the 3000 kids attended; how does she feel "persecuted" when over half of the students Didn't Go?"

Excellent point. Sounds like just another example of leftist whining.

109 posted on 05/12/2003 2:03:49 PM PDT by MEGoody
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
"Union County officials say the system is neutral when it comes to religious activities, pointing out that the crusade is voluntary, teachers chaperone on their own time and school buses are operated by private contractors."

It's hardly surprising they're justifying their position - but the facts don't bear them out.

1) They close the school for a three day religious event.

2) It's done during the school year.

3) Teachers and school staff participate.

4) The event is held by a single Christian sect. The presentation includes the religious beliefs of that sect only.

5) They don't close the school for other religious groups' meetings.

This is obviously biased behavior, based on religion, in favor of one group's beliefs. This would be entirely appropriate for a private school, but not a public school.

When my daughter attended a private school associated with a Lutheran church, she attended chapel regularly during the school day. That the school considered it part of the curriculum was certainly reasonable.

110 posted on 05/12/2003 2:15:31 PM PDT by jimt
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To: jimt
1) They close the school for a three day religious event.

I must have missed that part. Is that in the article? That's an important detail.

3) Teachers and school staff participate.

If they choose to, that's their right. I don't like the trend that the NEA and ACLU have taken that teachers can't be religious people because they are state employees.

4) The event is held by a single Christian sect. The presentation includes the religious beliefs of that sect only.

Most Christians are of a single religious sect. However, that too, is their right. I was raised a Catholic, I'm sure no one else here would want me saying every other denomenation had to be that! Kids are smart, they know bias when they see it. If 1,300 choose to go, they're going for a reason.

111 posted on 05/12/2003 3:59:18 PM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: Michael.SF.
It shouldn't have anything to do with the kid being harassed.

No matter, it will all come out in court.
112 posted on 05/12/2003 5:26:35 PM PDT by ladylib
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To: ladylib
No matter, it will all come out in court.

As I heave, a deep sigh of frustration;

That, my Lib friend, is one of today's main problems. People are way too willing to go to court instead of addressing the issues on a local level.

The problem is not the fact that some kids go to a Church camp during school hours, nor is the problem this kid's families wacko religion (see my post #60), the problem is the parents refusal to accept that other kids have a right to worship as they see fit, just as they do.

113 posted on 05/12/2003 5:37:52 PM PDT by Michael.SF. (If you cannot win by he rules, you must be a Democrat .)
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To: *Homeschool_list; 2Jedismom; homeschool mama; BallandPowder; ffrancone; WhyisaTexasgirlinPA; ...
ping

and for more lunacy, have a look!

114 posted on 05/12/2003 6:31:06 PM PDT by TxBec (Tag! You're it!)
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To: TxBec
Just one question. Did the revival work? Were the kids that she said picked on her with the group or did they stay behind at school with her?
115 posted on 05/12/2003 7:02:03 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Really? I must ahve a defective copy of the Constitution because mine has absolutely no mention of "seperation of church and state"

Mine must be defective also. It says nothing about freedom FROM religion, which is what all these atheists want.

116 posted on 05/12/2003 7:51:24 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: freeeee
Neutrality would of course constitute atheism.

Christians will NEVER be happy until EVERYONE is a christian.

All other religions be damned.

It's their way or the highway, and always has been.

The fact of the matter is, that if the parents of these students want their kids to go to one of these Christian bible camps, then they should do so AFTER school, just as is done with any other extracurricular activities.

The school should not promote or condemn any religious function period. And should NOT allow the students to go to such DURING school hours.

It is not the public schools place, if this had been a PRIVATE christian school, then I would expect this, but not at a public school.

And as far as the Pagan suing the school district, they have every right to do so, if the child is being harassed, has told the school about the harassment and the harassment continues, then they have right to sue because the school district did nothing to stop it. The childs safety is the schools responsibility during school hours.

She has as much right to be a Pagan, as Christians do to be Christians. Christians may not like her religion, but it does not give them the right to persecute her because of it.

117 posted on 05/12/2003 8:10:57 PM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: gore3000
Mine must be defective also. It says nothing about freedom FROM religion, which is what all these atheists want.

Yeah, sounds like you both are using a non-Libertarian Constitution. It happens. See my post #42 for details on some of the "Rights" and "amendments" you obviously didn't know where in there.

118 posted on 05/12/2003 8:54:37 PM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
The Government shall not impose a religion, but it cannot impose no religion either! The is the opposite, there isn't a "freedom" FROM religion, meaning it isn't the governments job to stop religeous activities either. People are litigating because they get offended (boo-hoo, I guess they never picked on anyone as a kid, or they were the ones being picked on.) there is the PERSUIT of happiness, you aren't gauranteed happiness!
119 posted on 05/13/2003 5:31:09 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: jimt
These folks are using a government school to promote a religious event. They are doing it for a particular sect of Christians. They are not doing it for Catholics, or Jews, or Muslims, or...

I thought Catholics were Christian, are you saying they aren't?

I know...I am starting a fire here...

120 posted on 05/13/2003 5:34:17 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: Aric2000
Neutrality would of course constitute atheism. Christians will NEVER be happy until EVERYONE is a christian. All other religions be damned. It's their way or the highway, and always has been.

Uh, excuse me...I have been a Born Again Christian Christian since OCtober 15, 1990. I don't know everything about the bible, but I am constantly learning. I do know I have never been happier, and it has nothing to do with anyone else becoming Christian.

As far as other religions be damned, that is a true statment. Jesus said himself..."I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me." No other "prophet" or religious leader ever made those claims.

Christianity isn't a religion. It is a faith. Jesus didn't come to make a religion.

121 posted on 05/13/2003 5:45:26 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: jimt
4) The event is held by a single Christian sect.

Name the sect. We'll wait patiently.

122 posted on 05/13/2003 5:47:51 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Aric2000
She has as much right to be a Pagan, as Christians do to be Christians. Christians may not like her religion, but it does not give them the right to persecute her because of it.

What gives HER the right to interfere with the religious practices of others? They aren't stopping her from her pagan practices but she IS stopping Christians from their practices.

123 posted on 05/13/2003 5:49:01 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
I'm not opining about what happened in this community, because it isn't clear whether the school day is involved (although I question the wisdom of the "adults" who would encourage this - feels like a lot of teacher and peer pressure to conform to me, and if I were the preacher, I'd certainly question whether all my attendees were there of their own free will). Speaking strictly for myself as an Christian outside the Southern Free Association mold, I can't say that I'd be real happy with my kids being dragged off on things like this, because it isn't the tradition imparted in my home and at out church - the dogma just isn't even close, and revivals are too personality and emotion-of-the-moment driven for my taste (I say that having actually come from that tradition, but certainly can see where someone may prefer that as a matter of personal taste, and they might not appreciate our hierarchial liturgies). A Catholic family would have a reaction very similar to mine.

As far as I'm concerned, the school day is there to be a school day - not an opportunity for proselytization.

124 posted on 05/13/2003 5:59:28 AM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Zavien Doombringer
Of course Catholics are Christian. As are Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, Greek Orthodox, Lutherans, Episcopalians...

When this school starts holding events including the religions of ALL students, including the complaining pagan, and the odd atheist or two, they'll be legitimate.

Meanwhile, they're using government to promote religion, which is wrong.

125 posted on 05/13/2003 6:01:11 AM PDT by jimt
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To: AppyPappy
Keep waiting.
126 posted on 05/13/2003 6:01:36 AM PDT by jimt
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
As far as I'm concerned, the school day is there to be a school day - not an opportunity for proselytization.

I would agree with you on the premiss that the students were "dragged" to the event. They weren't. It was strictly voluntary. Permission slips and payment by parents, those that didn't object. I don't really see this "feild Trip" any different than going to the local amusement park, which our schools do frequently in our area, during the school day.

1 entry found for proselytization. pros·e·ly·tize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prs-l-tz) v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es v. intr. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine. v. tr. To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.

As far as the article mentions just a feild trip, I do not suspect Proselytizing is being done here.

127 posted on 05/13/2003 6:27:07 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: jimt
Of course Catholics are Christian. As are Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, Greek Orthodox, Lutherans, Episcopalians...

When this school starts holding events including the religions of ALL students, including the complaining pagan, and the odd atheist or two, they'll be legitimate.

Meanwhile, they're using government to promote religion, which is wrong.

The Government wasn't used to promote religion, secondly Christianity isn't a religion, it is a faith. Religions institute dogma and legalistic view that those parrishoners must follow to ensure sanctification! Jesus wasn't legalistic, nor did he induce any dogma (mans traditions) into God's word. He even rebuked the traditional Pharisee.

As far as the Field Trip went, all were invited to go, not all accepted. Just like Jesus said, many are called, few are (have) Chosen....Take it anyway you want. The School isn't in the wrong because 1 person is offended!

128 posted on 05/13/2003 6:32:56 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
If it involves a permission slip and time out of an instruction day, then it interferes, and becomes officially sanctioned (especially if the kids are getting attendance credit). If the preacher is making comments about souls available to him, then it is proselytization, especially if those kids who are in attendance aren't regular members of his congregation.

And frankly, if he is driving a wedge and driving those children away from their normal congregations and drawing them to his church through peer and authority pressure, then what he is doing is reprehensible.

129 posted on 05/13/2003 6:40:19 AM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
It is appearant that you have never been to a revival, or a Billy Graham Crusade...There isn't any "Proselytizing". It is ONE KINGDOM under God. I don't kow about "making souls available to him" thing, Revivals I have been to do not promote ones religion, but promotes a faith in Christ. Revivals have all types of denominations attending, and not one is singled out. Again, there is only one Kingdom of God. What wedge are you alledgeing is being driven between churches caused by this revival. You are assuming damage has occured. That is proposterous! Schools are STATE Sponsored, not FEDERALY! The First Admendment applies to Congress! The state can do these things.
130 posted on 05/13/2003 6:53:33 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
As far as the Field Trip went, all were invited to go, not all accepted. Just like Jesus said, many are called, few are (have) Chosen....Take it anyway you want. The School isn't in the wrong because 1 person is offended!

The are none so blind as those that will not see.

When it's the Satanists shutting down schools for sabbats somehow I don't think you'll feel quite the same. Or the Moonies. Or the Hari Krishnas.

Remember when the Hari Krishnas took over that town in Oregon? What if they'd done the same?

131 posted on 05/13/2003 7:43:01 AM PDT by jimt
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To: AppyPappy
As I saic Appy, if it was AFTER school, that would be fine with me, but to do this during school hours is unacceptable.

They can do whatever they want AFTER school, but religious gatherings should NOT be done during school hours.

That is a time for learning the 3 r's, not bouncing around and singing to god.
132 posted on 05/13/2003 8:52:13 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: Aric2000
but religious gatherings should NOT be done during school hours.

Sorry but if you allow ANY gatherings, you have to allow religious gatherings. Otherwise, it is discriminatory.

133 posted on 05/13/2003 8:55:11 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
Christianity is a religion, yes, it's a faith too, but above all it is a religion.

Christians will not be happy until every one is a christian.

I am glad that it makes you happy, but my answers are not found in your "faith". I have found my answers elsewhere.

To say that your faith has the only answers is the highest form of arrogance that I have ever seen, and the more Christians I talk to, the more arrogance I see.

Just because Christianity has the answers that you seek, does not mean that it has the answers for everyone.

The government should be neutral in regards to religion, The field trips should have been done AFTER school, not during school hours.

Other then that I have no problem with the "crusade" or whatever they call them.

Also, someone should NOT be persecuted by Christians because they do not share your faith, and those people should be protected from that persecution.

Remember, Christians were persecuted for centuries, to have Christians persecuting another is rather sickening.
134 posted on 05/13/2003 9:12:26 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: jimt; Zavien Doombringer
When it's the Satanists shutting down schools for sabbats somehow I don't think you'll feel quite the same. Or the Moonies. Or the Hari Krishnas.

We're back to the Satanists canard from yesterday.

Sigh.... Hear you nothing that I say? The boy has no patience, I cannot train him.</Master Yoda>

135 posted on 05/13/2003 9:15:08 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: AppyPappy
Baloney, if it has to do with the interschool activities, such as homecoming, if it has to do with having a politician speak to the student body, if it has anything to do with the working of the school, perhaps an award ceremony for scholarly achievement, but religious activities should NOT be done DURING school hours.

The school should not be paying for religious activities by cutting into the school day for them.

If the parents wish to pull their children out of school, put together this thing themselves, and truck those children off to the crusade themselves, I have no problem with it either.

The school must be NEUTRAL on ALL religious activities, PERIOD, otherwise what's next, you gonna have an earthday celebration? How would you feel if they invited devil worshippers to make it fair, or perhaps Pagans, or Buddhists, or even hindus into speak with the student body during class time.

You'd change your tune in a heartbeat, Well, if it's OK for you to do it as a Christian, then it had better be OK for other religions to do it as well. And then where does it stop?

Yeah, I got your number, it's OK for Christians to do it, but not other religions.
136 posted on 05/13/2003 9:19:32 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: Aric2000; Zavien Doombringer
the more Christians I talk to, the more arrogance I see.

No pun intended, but Good Lord!

Can you read this? You accusing the Christians of being arrogant with your excessively arrogant rant? Just because Christianity has the answers that you seek, does not mean that it has the answers for everyone. Are you trying to be ridiculous? When did this born again guy ever say that it was for you, you HAD to be born again, or even imply that you were lesser for not agreeing with his choice? I am glad that it makes you happy, but my answers are not found in your "faith". I have found my answers elsewhere. So unnecessarily defensive, typical. Well whoop-dee-doo, who cares? I'm glad for you too, you get a cookie!

You anti-Christians, and don't waffle-its ok to be anti-Christian but you have to be honest, are the biggest bunch of whiners this side of the Democratic party. Always claiming victimhood and persecution. someone should NOT be persecuted by Christians because they do not share your faith Chill out, Madam Hillary! Everythings going to be all right if you stop being so shrill.

137 posted on 05/13/2003 9:54:42 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
You need to get a grip.

Christians are at my doorstep every other day pitching their religion at me, do I feel a little persecuted, your damn right.

The fact of the matter is, I said that the SCHOOL should NOT be involved in religious activities PERIOD!!

And the Pagan girl, SHOULD NOT be persecuted by Christians in her school for having a different faith, Don't think it happened, sorry, I know it happens, so it is NOT that far a stretch for me to believe that it happened to her.

If you want your child involved in Religious sctivities AT and DURING school, then send them to private school.

You are the one that is whining, trying to change the subject AGAIN, I was responding to AppyPappy, NOT you.

Oh, and what about the other religions, what wold you do if the Pagans decided to have a celebration that cut into 2 hours of the day at school, used school busses, and teachers volunteered to go? You'd have a coniption fit, don't deny it, you would, you would have a fit.

Yeah, I find the Christian religion arrogant, just as I find the Muslim religion arrogant. ANY religion that states that it is FOR EVERYBODY, and persecutes those that are not believers, is arrogant in the extreme. Yeah, I have a problem with arrogance in Religion, especially when it's believers are about as fanatical as they come.

Do I believe that the Pagan was chased around and threatened by Christians, yeah, I believe it, I lived it. Although, I was not Pagan.
138 posted on 05/13/2003 10:03:54 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: Aric2000
Yeah, I got your number, it's OK for Christians to do it, but not other religions

You are a liar. I bet you are a libertarian. I can tell because you make up an opinion for someone to hold and then you attack it.

139 posted on 05/13/2003 10:12:07 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
Sorry, since it seemed that it was OK for christians to do it, but you never responded to my what if's, then I assumed you wished to ignore that in order not to appear a hypocrite.

My apologies if I was wrong, but I doubt that I am.
140 posted on 05/13/2003 10:13:50 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
Obviously, desiring freedom = arrogance.
141 posted on 05/13/2003 10:14:08 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Aric2000
If you had READ what I said, you would know that my kids attend Buddhist functions, Muslim functions, Jewish functions and others at their school. I think it is a good idea.
142 posted on 05/13/2003 10:15:31 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
Then you have my apologies.

Wow, I am impressed, yes, you have my apologies.

I am sorry that I jumped you like that.
143 posted on 05/13/2003 10:24:21 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: jimt
When it's the Satanists shutting down schools for sabbats somehow I don't think you'll feel quite the same. Or the Moonies. Or the Hari Krishnas.

I am sorry you feel that way, next time you are offered time off with pay for a Christian Holiday, say, "no thanks".

As far as shutting down a school, it never happened. And I do remember there are sanctions for different religions. It just so happens that this was a "Christian" Field trip that has everyone swooning, if it were a New-age seminar, would you even care?

144 posted on 05/13/2003 10:31:56 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
I would care.

Anything that Smacks of ANY religion, should not be DURING school hours, and SHOULD NOT be organized by the public school.

PERIOD
145 posted on 05/13/2003 10:50:43 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: Aric2000; Zavien Doombringer; AppyPappy
I had you confused with someone who might be emotional basket case concerning Christianity. I'm sorry.

There's no "might" about it, you are a basket case.

Christians are at my doorstep every other day pitching their religion at me, do I feel a little persecuted, your damn right. Aaahhhhh, I'm tearin' up over here. If you start crying, I'm going to start crying. Quick suggestion, listen to Nancy & just say "no"

The fact of the matter is, I said that the SCHOOL should NOT be involved in religious activities PERIOD!!

Wrong again, the fact of the matter is that the TEACHERS are freely involved, and its not your business working through the state PERIOD!!

And the Pagan girl, SHOULD NOT be persecuted by Christians in her school for having a different faith, Don't think it happened, sorry, I know it happens, so it is NOT that far a stretch for me to believe that it happened to her. So you "know" it happen exactly like she said, emotional one? Well we know pagans do have commandments against lying so I'm sold. In that case, you're 100% right taking a bold stand against persecution, you get a second cookie.

If you want your child involved in Religious sctivities AT and DURING school, then send them to private school.What a canard. There are so many things wrong with this charge. Most importantly, tell that to the poor kids who the NEA has stopped school vouchers for.

You are the one that is whining, trying to change the subject AGAIN, I was responding to AppyPappy, NOT you.

Ah the mark of the truly desperate FR poster losing an argument. Technically it was Zavien, but you are right. If you think I'm going to let you stereotype Christians as being arrogant in your rant than you're even dumber than your poor spelling indicates.

Oh, and what about the other religions, what wold you do if the Pagans decided to have a celebration that cut into 2 hours of the day at school, used school busses, and teachers volunteered to go? You'd have a coniption fit, don't deny it, you would, you would have a fit.

LOL!! Settle down SHrillary, you're the one having another conniption fit. Enhance your calm. If the pagens had enough of a majority to voluntarily pull that off there's nothing I could whine to the state about, its still a religiously free country (except for people like you) but I would pull my kids out of that school I assure you.

Yeah, I find the Christian religion arrogant, just as I find the Muslim religion arrogant. ANY religion that states that it is FOR EVERYBODY, and persecutes those that are not believers, is arrogant in the extreme. Yeah, I have a problem with arrogance in Religion, especially when it's believers are about as fanatical as they come.

I assume you are referring to the Christian terrorists? Perhaps it’s the one-religion laws in Saudi? The state controlled by religion is built into Islam through Sharia, Christianity is unique how Jesus said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar" If that's your best shot as to why Christians are arrogant, linking them to Islam, you have a lamer case than I thought.

Do I believe that the Pagan was chased around and threatened by Christians, yeah, I believe it, I lived it. Although, I was not Pagan.

Again with the unnecessary defensiveness, why in the world would I care if you are a Pagan, why add that? You've obviously been exposed to some intolerant Christians (or you are just a complete psycho, a distinct possiblity) that's their bad if they wounded you, it’s not a part of the religion and they are wrong. But don't you dare stereotype "Christians" as being arrogant; you're the one who is clearly arrogant passing such hypocritical "judgement" upon them all.

146 posted on 05/13/2003 10:58:08 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: Aric2000
I would care.

Anything that Smacks of ANY religion, should not be DURING school hours, and SHOULD NOT be organized by the public school.

PERIOD

Why do you care, what is it hurting? It is because the lack of religion we have the problems we do. Religion teaches man being inherently evil, where humanist teach man is inherently good. Revivals do not cause a person to regress to an evil state, it actually progresses those to another spiritual level. That is of thier own choice, and it isn't coerced!

You need to deal with your own convictions and leave this school alone that doesn't have a problem with it!

147 posted on 05/13/2003 10:59:42 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If I keep my eyes on Jesus, I could walk on water - Audio Adrenaline)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
As far as shutting down a school, it never happened.

You are absolutely correct and I was wrong. What happened was worse.

From the article.

Every year, hundreds of Union County students take a field trip for the soul. Children are excused from class, loaded onto school buses with teachers and sent to a three-day Christian revival.

So while other kids are required by law to go to school, these kids get excused absences to attend a revival.

The pagan kid ought to set up her own 3 day meeting and ask for an excused absence as well.

Bet she doesn't get it.

Meanwhile some teachers and support staff take three days off (vacation, personal days, paid holiday?) while the remainder go to work as usual.

And I do remember there are sanctions for different religions. It just so happens that this was a "Christian" Field trip that has everyone swooning, if it were a New-age seminar, would you even care?

I am not "swooning". I simply think it's not appropriate for a government school. I'd feel the same if they were trying to peddle New Age stuff, or Zoroastrianism, or Islam.

148 posted on 05/13/2003 11:11:21 AM PDT by jimt
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To: Zavien Doombringer
You want your children to go to a relgious function during schhol hours, then send them to private school.

It is NOT the schools place to teach morality, it is the parents job to do that.

It is the schools job to give knowledge to students, it is the parents job to instill morality.

The public school has NO place in the religious studies of students unless it is AFTER school hours, or at a private school.
149 posted on 05/13/2003 11:12:07 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
I'm emotional, hmm, OK, well at least I got one response from you.

If it had happened with another religion, then you would pull your child out of that school.

How..... hypocritical of you....

Am I surprised? Not a bit.
150 posted on 05/13/2003 11:13:49 AM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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