Robert E. Lee Boy Scout Council, Richmond, VA, to be Renamed. More PC for the Boy Scouts...

WRVA Radio ^ | 5/13/03 | VMI70

[VMI70]

This past weekend, my son and I went on his troop's annual father-son hike. His troop is one of many in the Robert E. Lee Council of the Boy Scouts of America, which is headquartered in Richmond, VA.

On Sunday, during the church service at the end of the hike, it was announced that the Council directors had voted to change its name from The Robert E. Lee Council, which has been in use for many decades, to something else.

This morning, the news broke on the local radio station: WRVA 1140 AM, Richmond's Morning News with Jimmy Barrett.

[VMI70]

Click on "Richmond's Morning News with Jimmy Barrett" which is on the upper left hand side of the page, and there you will find a small story and a poll(hint).

Scout Executive Director, Robert A. Tuggle 804-204-2611 atuggle@relcbsa.org (another hint)

Tuggle was interviewed this morning by Jimmy Barret, and judging by his responses to Barrett's questions, Tuggle gives a whole new meaning to the term "jellyfish".

They are soliciting suggestions for new names. I am sure many FReepers would have some great suggestions, so be sure to email them to Mr. Tuggle: atuggle@relcbsa.org

I guess mine will be "Ulysses S. Grant"

Below is the Scout Law. I wonder how the Robert E. Lee Council Directors who voted for the change measure up:

A Scout Director is:

trustworthy? - not very

loyal? - not

helpful? - not

friendly? - maybe

courteous? - maybe

kind? - not

obedient? - not

cheerful? - maybe

thrifty? - maybe

brave? - definitely not

clean? - maybe

reverent? - not

It's a sad commentary, isn't it?

[Huck]

How about George Washington?

[jgrubbs]

The Christian General Bump!

[TomServo]

Dixie Ping!

[Mister Baredog]

How about George Washington?

NO he's out too, slave owner you know. I guess if some are bothered by history they think they can just rewrite it, How about Soupy Sales! I don't know why this scout troop cares, don't they know they are all bigoted homophobes anyway?

[RonF]

Has the Robert E. Lee Council been involved in a Council merger? The BSA has been merging together it's smaller local Councils into larger ones to consolidate staffs and save money (or to enable them to increase the number of lower-level staff to provide more service). It's common to give the new Council a different name from the either of the older ones. Is that the case here?

[WhiskeyPapa]

Lee wrote in an 1865 letter that the best relation of white and black was that of master and slave. He really gets a much better press than he deserves.

Walt

[Tax-chick]

How about George Washington?

Another slaveholding Dead White Man? Forget it! I'll bet they either choose a black person, or something bland like "Richmond Council."

What a bunch of wimps. If they were ever Boy Scouts, they obviously didn't learn anything important!

[Huck]

NO he's out too, slave owner you know.

GW did free all of his slaves though. That counts for something.

[stainlessbanner]

Help out

[stainlessbanner]

The Governor of Virginia was asked by General Lee, “What will they think of the country?” (after the implied surrender).

The Governor replied, “My God, General Lee, you are the country to these men.”

[jgrubbs]

Walt, we have had many discussions on these issues. I can never change your way of thinking and you can never change mine. This is an issue that we will have to just agree to disagree about, there are many other issues that we probably agree with each other 100%. I am proud to have the portraits of Robert E. Lee and Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson hanging in my office at home.

[VMI70]

No.
It's a comparatively large council and has been around for a very long time. My son's troop was originally Troop 5, before they changed the numbering system.

[putupon]

Naw, the PC leftist Yankees just came down here and shoved that stinkin' Linkin' statue up our arses at Trededgar, they'll find some court somewhere to make them change the name to Linkin Scouts too.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Walt, we have had many discussions on these issues. I can never change your way of thinking and you can never change mine.

I'm not trying to change your way of thinking.

As long as you don't post the complete claptrap nonsense/nazi-like propaganda that makes up the bulk of "southern heritage", you probably won't hear from me.

Walt

[Yardstick]

My mother went to Robert E. Lee Elementary School in Baton Rouge (1950's). I wonder how many southern schools were given General Lee's name, and I wonder how many have kept it.

[NYFriend]

Washington and Lee have a lot in common. The slavery issue is what is probably driving this issue. But, also (I'm not saying more, less or equal) both could very easily be considered traitors to their nation. With Lee we get into the state vs. nation issue, and in modern times this is harder for us to understand but was probably a fair argument in 1860. With Washington there are more complicated issues relating to international law that basically end up with him being ok because his side won, an answer that is generally rejected by non-classical thinkers in internaitonal relations. I'd be interested in any thoughts about this.

I'm willing to bet that the debate will come down to personal feelings about the role of the federal government. While I might say that Washington fought for the United States, and Lee against it, others may argue that Lee fought for the Unites States that Washington fought for, and against a nation that was simply called the United States. I happen to disagree on the underlying issue in this argument (related to the legitimate role of the federal government), but I understand it.

Thoughts?

[Corin Stormhands]

Shut up Wlat.

[Mister Baredog]

NO he's out too, slave owner you know.
GW did free all of his slaves though. That counts for something.

It should but it doesn't in liberal PC circles, it's just a matter of time till we no longer teach our youth about those "evil men", the founding fathers(a term which is currently being exorcized from textbooks).

[Corin Stormhands]

I heard this yesterday and am dismayed. They say it's for "marketing" purposes, but they have caved to political correctness.

My oldest son is no longer in scouting. My youngest will probably do the scouting program our church has. But I'll hang on to my den leader's uniform and my R.E. Lee Council patches...

[steplock]

Well, in that case we cannot have the name of ANY black person since blacks were the ones that CAPTURED slaves, SOLD, slaves, and STILL OWN SLAVES!

So there put your PC cr*P up where it came out of.

[UPcrawfish]

Another PC stake in the heart of History !
Councils are named for a significant event / person / geographic uniqueness. Go to the website and read Tuggles fluff on his pride in Scouting..

Robert E. Lee Council website
http://www.relcbsa.org/

[stainlessbanner]

LEE's DEFINITION OF A GENTLEMAN

"The forbearing use of power does not only form a touchstone, but the manner in which an individual enjoys certain advantages over others is a test of a true gentleman.

The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly-the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light.

The gentleman does not needlessly and unnecessarily remind an offender of a wrong he may have committed against him. He cannot only forgive, he can forget; and he strives for that nobleness of self and mildness of character which impart sufficient strength to let the past be but the past. A true man of honor feels humbled himself when he cannot help humbling others."

--Robert E. Lee

[WhiskeyPapa]

Shut up Wlat.

What could you possibly take issue with in a free exchange of ideas?

Walt

[VMI70]

After the war, during a church service at St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Richmond, a black man came to the rail to receive Holy Communion. No one else would come forward to join him in communion save one, Robert E. Lee.

[davisfh]

"Robert E. Lee Boy Scout Council, Richmond, VA, to be Renamed. More PC for the Boy Scouts..."

I've got it! Why not rename it "Pewee Herman Boy Scout Council?"

[Pete]

As long as you don't post the complete claptrap nonsense/nazi-like propaganda that makes up the bulk of "southern heritage", you probably won't hear from me.

Geez. Did someone from Georgia run over your dog or something?

[Investment Biker]

Not only was Washington a slave owner but there are CSA graves at Mt. Vernon and one of his wife's kids married Lee. Also Washington frequently visited the Lee home when Lee was a child. There are also CSA graves at Jefferson's home. So they all are out. If you really want to understand the civil war/war between the states then study the life of RF Lee not the life of Abe, visit his home over looking the capital (Arlington National Cemetery).

Investment Biker, Ohio Native

[Corin Stormhands]

Perhaps it's because we know your ideas, along with your hero Beelzebubba.

[jgrubbs]

As long as you don't post the complete claptrap nonsense/nazi-like propaganda that makes up the bulk of "southern heritage", you probably won't hear from me.

I posted a picture of General Lee reading the Bible to a child, and I heard from you. That was not "claptrap nonsense/nazi-like propaganda".

[WSGilcrest]

My suggestion:

The Ernest Thompson Seton Council of the Boy Scouts of America.

[Destro]

That's what happenes to a conquered people.

[stainlessbanner]

"When I was a kid growing up in rural Georgia, we didn't have a soda shop or a boy's club. But we did have Scouting. Scouting was as important to me as church and school. I learned about honesty, gained skills that helped build my self-confidence, and gained even more - a set of core values and beliefs that have helped me make good decisions my whole life.

It's easy to talk about the reason for values. Scouting is one of the few remaining programs that teaches values to young people and demonstrates values in action. Where else does a boy pledge his duty to God and country? Where else does a boy make a weekly commitment to 'keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight'?"

-Robert A. Tuggle, Scout Executive

[Huck]

For me it breaks down like this: Washington fought for self-government. Lee fought on one side of a dispute between parties to the compact that Washington helped create. Indeed, without Washington there is no Constitution, possibly no liberty in America. Without Lee, there is some other General leading the Army of N. Va.

The proper place for disputes between states to be settled under our system is in Congress, or in the courts. Secession is illegitimate.

[WhiskeyPapa]

I posted a picture of General Lee reading the Bible to a child, and I heard from you. That was not "claptrap nonsense/nazi-like propaganda".

I responded to #15, which did not contain any pictures.

Walt

[jgrubbs]

I responded to #15, which did not contain any pictures. Actually your post was #15, and was To: jgrubbs. Your first post was #7 which was also To: jgrubbs, in response to my first post #3 which was the post of the picture. Your post about "claptrap nonsense/nazi-like propaganda" was #15 was To: jgrubbs in response to my post #12 about me and you just having to agree to disagree.

[Shooter 2.5]

What's the big deal?

Name the council after someone who did something for Scouting and be done with it.

[azcap]

[LouD]

"I am now considered such a monster, that I hesitate to darken with my shadow, the doors of those I love, lest I should bring upon them misfortune."

- Robert E. Lee, after his surrender at Appomattox in 1865.

Too bad the climate of political correctness run amuck has left us unable to appreciate Lee's qualities, simply because, by accident of birth, he owed his allegiance to Virginia and the Confederacy. The revisionist evaluation of historical figures using contemporary standards is appalling - and far too many people lack sufficient historical knowledge to evaluate a complex figure like Lee in historical context.

[Grand Old Partisan]

Robert Lee violated his soldier's oath to defend the Government and Constitution of the United States of America. He even renewed his oath of loyalty to the United States while already collaborating with the rebels.

Was his behavior trustworthy and loyal?

[putupon]

Not only was Washington a slave owner

Your hate Dead Whitey Washington diatribe left out that he freed his slaves at death.

[mass55th]

I say call it the Taliban Chapter or the Saddam Hussein Chapter. Either way, the people who pushed to get the name changed were more than likely against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and like the Taliban and Saddam, are out to destroy the heritage of a group of people.

[VMI70]

Ping

[Grand Old Partisan]

Washington willed that his slaves be freed upon Martha's death, but good point.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Robert Lee violated his soldier's oath to defend the Government and Constitution of the United States of America. He even renewed his oath of loyalty to the United States while already collaborating with the rebels.

In the "Gods and Generals" movie, Lee is shown accepting a commission from the rebel government in the uniform of a full colonel of the UNITED STATES Army. If not for the magnaminity of the Yankees he would surely have hung.

Walt

[SCDogPapa]

There is some great advise here. I wish I had seen this 30 years ago.

ROBERT E. LEE ON CHILD REARING

"In its broad and comprehensive sense, education embraces the physical, moral, and intellectual instruction of a child from infancy to manhood. Any system is imperfect which does not combine them all; and that is best which, while it thoroughly develops them, abases the coarse animal emotions of human nature and exalts the higher faculties and feelings. A child has everything to learn, and is more readily taught by having before it good examples to imitate, than by simple precepts. He should, therefore, as far as circumstances will permit, be encouraged to associate with his parents; for his heart must be affected, his feelings moved, as well as his mind expanded. He may be taught that it is criminal to steal, and sinful to lie, and yet be unable to apply this knowledge to the government of himself; and it will therefore be of no value to him unless the principle is confirmed into a habit.

"Obedience is the first requisite in family training. It should be made sincere and perfect, and to proceed as much from affection as a conviction of its necessity. To accomplish this, great prudence and the exercise of much patience are necessary. By firmness mixed with kindness, the child by repeated experience will learn that he is not to follow his first impulse, and that self-control, which even an infant can understand, is necessary to his comfort. Neither violence nor harshness should ever be used, and the parent must bear constantly in mind, that to govern his child, he must show him that he can control himself. One of the most common errors in the management of children is irregularity of behavior towards them. They are as skillful as pertinacious in their attempts to gratify their self will; at one time trying to evade authority, at another, to oppose it. If they once succeed, they are encouraged to persevere; and it is necessary for the parent to meet the first attempt with firmness, and not permit himself to be baffled either by evasion or resistance. Although a child may not yield to threats and may defy punishment, he cannot resist patient kindness and gentle admonition.

"The love of truth is equal in importance to habitual obedience. Every encouragement, even to the pardoning of offenses, should be given to its cultivation. Children are naturally truthful, and they should be accustomed to hear the truth always spoken; and candor, integrity, and confession of error, with a detestation of falsehood, dishonesty, and equivocation should be sedulously inculcated. A strict adherence to promises made to them is of the utmost importance as well as the removal of all temptation to misconduct. They should also be prepared and warned against its attacks.

"Sentiments of religion should be early impressed upon the minds of children by personal explanation and systematic instruction. As the intellect expands, its sacred truths will be comprehended and felt, and its motives and principles be strengthened and confirmed by practice and habit. An essential part of the education of youth is to teach them to serve themselves, and to impress upon them the fact that nothing good can be acquired in this world without labor, and that the very necessaries and comforts of life must be procured by earnest and regular exertion. They should also be taught to know that after having been reared and educated by their parents they should not expect them to further provide for them, and that their future subsistence and advancement must depend upon themselves.

"Parents sometimes commit the mistake of allowing their children after having reached the period of life when they ought to be engaged in making a livelihood, to rely upon them for support. This encourages them in injurious idleness, destroys that Spirit of self dependence which is necessary for their advancement in life, and causes them to appear so unreasonable as to depend upon them, after, having arrived at the age of being able to think and act for themselves.

"The choice of a profession is not of so much consequence as the manner in which it is pursued. If habits of self-control and self-denial have been acquired during education, the great object has been accomplished. Diligence and integrity in any useful pursuit of life will be sure to secure and will result from engaging in that business in which the generality of mankind are interested.

"What I have written is derived from my reflection and experience."

Robert E. Lee, 1867

[Investment Biker]

The revisionist evaluation of historical figures using contemporary standards is appalling - and far too many people lack sufficient historical knowledge to evaluate a complex figure like Lee in historical context.

What bothers me more than anything is the way politically correct decisions are made without knowledge. I think Walter Williams has a Confederate flag behind his desk, good for him. For me it stands for states rights, something destroyed in the 1860's, slavery would have disappeared without the violence as it did in most of the rest of the world.

[WhiskeyPapa]

The revisionist evaluation of historical figures using contemporary standards is appalling - and far too many people lack sufficient historical knowledge to evaluate a complex figure like Lee in historical context.

Lee was called a traitor at the time and he was a traitor.

What is amazing and unique about the American experience of insurrection and rebellion is that the losers could get such favorable treatment for such inexcusable actions.

Walt

[samuel_adams_us]

My Great-Great Grandmother Rebecca Henkel, Lebanon Church Virginia, once remarked that General Robert E Lee was the most handsome man she ever saw. She wrote in our family bible that the late general had character, integrity, and was fearless. To bad the trash trying to change the boy scouts will never be able to say the same thing about themselves.

[Investment Biker]

I never said I hated Washington. And yes I did, unfortunately, leave out the fact he freed his slaves. I admire Washington, Lee, Jefferson, and Lincoln. My comment was only meant as a historical observation. You ass/u/me that I was on a hate rant and you sir were in error. Do not be so quick to judgement.

Investment Biker