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Robert E. Lee Boy Scout Council, Richmond, VA, to be Renamed. More PC for the Boy Scouts...
WRVA Radio ^ | 5/13/03 | VMI70

Posted on 05/13/2003 6:17:13 AM PDT by VMI70

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To: Grand Old Partisan
If the Federal government tried to invade my state with force I would have taken up arms against them as well. I support our country and support our troops, but if the wrong person were in power and made our nation into a police state and tried usurp their power to control the people, I would have no problem with US citizens defending their homes and their states.

We encourage other countries to overthrow their governments, would you encourage U.S. citizens to overthrow our government if it ever got corrupt? What if we had Communist leaders running this country? The Democrats are working toward socialism and communism in this country, would you then support the right to stand up against the government?

51 posted on 05/13/2003 7:06:07 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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To: Grand Old Partisan
If you really want to rub it in bring up the fact that Robert E. Lee was not an American citizen.
52 posted on 05/13/2003 7:06:12 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: SCDogPapa
Lee did a lot of track covering. Consider these two statements:

"The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom and forebearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for 'perpetual union' so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled. It is idle to talk of secession." January 23, 1861

"All the South has ever desired is that the union, as formed by our founding fathers, should be preserved." Jan 5. 1866

They are pretty inconsistent.

Walt

53 posted on 05/13/2003 7:06:46 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: SCDogPapa
Thank you sir. What great words from our beloved Marse Robert. Lee is a great role model for our sons.
54 posted on 05/13/2003 7:07:49 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Whatever the movie version, Lee signed a renewal of his loyalty oath upon accepting promotion to Colonel in the United States Army, while he was already working with the rebels.
55 posted on 05/13/2003 7:08:22 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: VMI70; P8riot; jla; iceskater; AdSimp; cherry_bomb88; Twodees; yankhater
OK. I'll cast my vote for Stonewall Jackson.
56 posted on 05/13/2003 7:09:46 AM PDT by sultan88 ("But after I've been cryin' all night, the sun is cold and the new day seems old")
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To: jgrubbs
now,now--the South fired the first shots.
57 posted on 05/13/2003 7:10:16 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Huck
How about George Washington?

The public has supported the BSA in it's efforts to keep Gay Scoutmasters out, now BSA caves to this kind of crap.

Just name it after some Sodomite for all I care.

58 posted on 05/13/2003 7:12:09 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Soddom has left the bunker.)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Was he not a citizen of the southern states at that time?
59 posted on 05/13/2003 7:12:28 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: jgrubbs
The rebels fought for slavery, an abomination as bad as Communisim.
60 posted on 05/13/2003 7:12:47 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: putupon
As well as he treated them with respect before he died as well. There was always ample food, heat and a roof over their head while they were in his care.
61 posted on 05/13/2003 7:13:36 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: VMI70
Thanks for the ping Brother Rat. It's very, very sad, but what can you expect these days. Even in Richmond!

Anyway, my best for New Market Day on Thursday! In my heart, I'll be marching down Letcher Avenue playing Dixie as we pass Virginia Mourning Her Dead.

62 posted on 05/13/2003 7:13:39 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Mesopotamia Delenda Est)
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To: samuel_adams_us
He was a citizen of the United States and of Virginia.
63 posted on 05/13/2003 7:13:50 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: SCDogPapa
Thank you! This is excellent! I am sending it around.
64 posted on 05/13/2003 7:14:08 AM PDT by annyokie (provacative yet educational reading alert)
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To: Investment Biker
Apologies if I took your comment wrong. The meddling Yankee leftists have been rattling our cages with more frequency as the the PC jihad increases in intensity and our nerves are a bit on edge.

putpon

Robt. E Lee Council Troop 713

65 posted on 05/13/2003 7:15:23 AM PDT by putupon (There is nothing here to read right now)
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To: Huck
How about Robert E. Lee?
66 posted on 05/13/2003 7:15:34 AM PDT by HELLRAISER II
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To: sultan88
As long as they don't name it after some of our "stellar lights" like Sa'ad El Amin, Chuck Richardson, Joe Morrissey - I could go on and on....
67 posted on 05/13/2003 7:15:52 AM PDT by iceskater
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To: Grand Old Partisan
I guess you forget the south set up their own government? Do you remember a president by the name of Jefferson Davis, How about one with the last name of Stephens?
68 posted on 05/13/2003 7:16:18 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: CatoRenasci
Good Old New Market, Woodstock, Strasburg, and Winchester. Our family drug store shut down there in Winchester back about 15 years ago after being in business for 227 years.
69 posted on 05/13/2003 7:17:16 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: VMI70
How about Meriwether Lewis (1774 - 1809) and William Clark (1770 - 1838) Led a famous expedition to the Pacific ocean; both born in Virginia. Personally, I think they represent the spirit of the Boy Scouts better than General Lee. From a humble member of the Simon Kenton Council in Ohio.


70 posted on 05/13/2003 7:17:37 AM PDT by drq
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To: drq
I can agree with that myself. Did you know that Merriweather Lewis was a cousin of Thomas Jefferson? Both related through their mothers? Merriweather was also related to Washington as well.
71 posted on 05/13/2003 7:18:44 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: HELLRAISER II
How about Robert E. Lee?

Well, now, you see I think they want to change the name to something else.

72 posted on 05/13/2003 7:19:06 AM PDT by Huck
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Whatever the movie version, Lee signed a renewal of his loyalty oath upon accepting promotion to Colonel in the United States Army, while he was already working with the rebels.

No record of Lee's oath as colonel exists, but he definitely pee'd all over this one:

"I, Robert E. Lee, appointed a Lieutenant Colonel of the Second Regt. of Cavalry in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever; and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the Officers appointed over me, according to the Rules and Articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."

Some of the neo-rebs will doubtless be along to muddy the waters, but it an historical fact that Lee took up arms for the rebel government while still under oath to the United States.

"According to paragraph 24 of the Regulations of the United States Army, 'No officer will be considered out of service on the tender of his resignation, until it shall have been duly accepted by the proper authority.' Paragraph 28 states that "in time of war, or with an army in the field, resignations shall take effect within thirty days of from the order of acceptance.' But Lee disregarded these restrictions. Between the posting of his resignation on April 20 and its acceptance on April 25, Lee drew his sword with remarkable alacrity." ("Lee Considered" by Alan Nolan, p. 39)

Lee met with rebel officials on April 20, well before his resignation was accepted.

Walt

73 posted on 05/13/2003 7:19:21 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: Destro
When Edmond Ruffin pulled the lanyard on one of the columbiads off Morris Island at 4:30 A.M. on Friday April 12, 1861, the "First Shot" of the War between the States.

You have to look at the events leading up to April 12, 1861. On Dec. 19, 1860, a convention of delegates were called to St. Andrew’s Hall in Charleston, S.C., to vote on secession. On that day, many issues were brought to the floor to be settled before the actual vote could occur. Among these issues were what to do with the federal military installations in South Carolina, particularly Forts Moultrie and Sumter. It was agreed that all federal property would have to be handed over to the government of South Carolina. Finally, on Dec. 20, 1860, the delegates voted by a count of 169-0 in favor of secession, and the union between South Carolina and other states of the United States was "hereby dissolved."

The South fired the first shot on a fort that was agreed to be handed over to the government of South Carolina almost 4 moths prior to the "First Shot".
74 posted on 05/13/2003 7:19:55 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Whether it was right or wrong we have to remember that that's just how people thought back then. In the North and the South Walt, not just the South. It burns me up to see you and your crew alway's preaching about the South even though the North was just as guilty. I guess what bothers me most is the way they go about changing history to fit their P.C. conspiracy's.
75 posted on 05/13/2003 7:20:15 AM PDT by HELLRAISER II
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To: sultan88
Stonewall is a good in-yer-face replacement.
76 posted on 05/13/2003 7:20:15 AM PDT by AdSimp
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To: Mister Baredog
it's just a matter of time till we no longer teach our youth about those "evil men"

It's moving that way already. Ask a public school third or fourth grader who Martin Luther King was, then ask them about Jackson, Lee, Davis (or Grant or McClellan, for that matter) - Guess which one out of the above that they can identify.

You may find some high school kids who are sufficiently well read to be able to identify all of them, but not many. I'm not saying that they should ignore black history, because it is important - but it is important in the overall context of American history. By the time they are in middle school, every American child should be able to identify all of the above (and Du Sable, DuBois, and Sojourner Truth, for that matter) - but unfortunately many kids are getting a revisionist history that fails to place historical figures, events, and beliefs in historical context, and ignores important aspects of American history, to focus on historical trivia.

My daughter's third grade social(ist) studies text is a good example: They spent months talking about interesting, but ultimately historically irrelevant tribes of hunter-gatherers, and limited time talking about the Revolution or the Civil War. Needless to say, the curriculum gets lots of home augmentation to provide a more balanced view.

77 posted on 05/13/2003 7:20:28 AM PDT by LouD
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To: samuel_adams_us
Jefferson Davis and Alexander Stephens were rebels. Sorry, I'm not going to help you re-fight the Civil War on this thread.
78 posted on 05/13/2003 7:20:43 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: drq
Good one!
79 posted on 05/13/2003 7:21:12 AM PDT by Huck
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To: Grand Old Partisan
I am not fighting the civil war again and since I am related to the stephens character I just though I would bring him up.
80 posted on 05/13/2003 7:22:14 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: sultan88
My vote is for Thomas J Jackson also. How many Yanks know that he started the first Black Sunday school in Lexington Va and supported it through his army pay ?
81 posted on 05/13/2003 7:22:15 AM PDT by let us cross over the river
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Do you honestly believe that all Southernors are Nazi like if they don't wish to change history or names of historical land marks or change the names of our schools and buildings just because you think that's the way suppose to be?
82 posted on 05/13/2003 7:23:18 AM PDT by HELLRAISER II
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To: HELLRAISER II
WP is obsessed with the Civil War. He loves to refight it whenever possible. Just ignore him. He's stuck in the past.
83 posted on 05/13/2003 7:23:32 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Huck
Well let's see, tell him to kiss our grits and leave the damn name the way it is.
84 posted on 05/13/2003 7:24:37 AM PDT by HELLRAISER II
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To: HELLRAISER II
Well let's see, tell him to kiss our grits and leave the damn name the way it is.

Tell em yerself. Seems to me the council directors get to say so or not.

85 posted on 05/13/2003 7:25:28 AM PDT by Huck
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To: jgrubbs
Why don't you and your neighbors get together and vote that it is agreed that the federal government is to turn over some nearby instalation to you? Sounds simple, and legal too -- LOL!
86 posted on 05/13/2003 7:25:55 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: let us cross over the river
They don't want to think that Jackson actually cared about the slaves, that he saw the slaves as a missions field for him to reach with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is just too politically incorrect!
87 posted on 05/13/2003 7:25:59 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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To: VMI70
How about the "Stonewall Jackson Council?"
88 posted on 05/13/2003 7:26:28 AM PDT by HIDEK6
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To: Huck
And they should show a little backbone and tell them that they're going to leave it just like it is. If they don't they're a bunch of panzies.
89 posted on 05/13/2003 7:27:41 AM PDT by HELLRAISER II
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To: HELLRAISER II
Do you honestly believe that all Southernors are Nazi like if they don't wish to change history or names of historical land marks or change the names of our schools and buildings just because you think that's the way suppose to be?

The neo-confederate or "southern" heritage movement is nazi-like in its use of propaganda. Their whole canto is based on lies, half truths and easily acceptable buzz phrases like "Heritage, not hate." This is Newspeak worthy of the best "1984" propagandist. The -heritage- WAS hate.

Walt

90 posted on 05/13/2003 7:27:48 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: HIDEK6
That would be a good name. This past weekend was the anniversary of Stonewall's death. Jackson died on May 10, 1863.
91 posted on 05/13/2003 7:27:51 AM PDT by jgrubbs
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To: HELLRAISER II
It burns me up to see you and your crew alway's preaching about the South even though the North was just as guilty.

Certainly President Lincoln thought the north and south equally guilty. See his second inaugural address.

What I take issue with is the sanitization of the history of these events by the "heritage" neo-reb fringe element, and their shills like DiLorenzo and Williams and the bums at the League of the South and Sons of Confederate veterans.

Walt

92 posted on 05/13/2003 7:31:13 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: VMI70
Setting aside whether it was correct or not to change the Council name, your analysis of how how the Council Directors measure up against the twelve points of the Scout Law simply based on their vote to change the name is nonsense.

How does that vote deem them not "kind" or "reverent"?

Perhaps one or more believed that the change was right -- but knew it would be met with objection. Wouldn't that make him "brave"?

In short, personal attacks on the Council Directors based on a decision that has valid arguments on both sides is neither helpful to the discussion, nor Scout-like.

93 posted on 05/13/2003 7:31:48 AM PDT by Scoutmaster
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To: HELLRAISER II
Some people are politically correct freaks. Same kind of people whom our founding fathers spat upon.
94 posted on 05/13/2003 7:32:21 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: WhiskeyPapa
A terrific old book, "The Rewards of Patriotism" by Lucy Stewart, goes over this in detail.
95 posted on 05/13/2003 7:32:38 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: HELLRAISER II
Do you honestly believe that all Southernors are Nazi like if they don't wish to change history or names of historical land marks or change the names of our schools and buildings just because you think that's the way suppose to be?

Me?

"That the general satisfaction with the surrender of Lee should beget a kind feeling for the rebel General is not unnatural. But it is a great folly to invest him with any romance. Robert E. Lee may be an honest man, as doubtless many of the rebels were, but beyond that he has no claim of any kind whatever upon the regard of the American people.

His story is very briefly told. Educated an army officer, he acknowledged the doctrine of State sovereignty, and, honestly holding it, he followed his State when she seceded. Now even if a man believed that his State had a right to secede at her pleasure, if he thought the occasion insufficient, as Lee confessed he did, he would silently acquiesce, and no more. But if the occasion were infamous, if the object of the exercise of State sovereignty at such enormous peril to the lives and happiness of his fellow-citizens were nothing but the perpetuity of human slavery, a noble and generous man would have protested with all his heart. Robert E. Lee offered his sword.

From that moment he has been an active soldier. His military skill has been much overrated. Stonewall Jackson, his Lieutenant, achieved his most famous successes, and Lee's two aggressive campaigns were ignominious failures. No man can be held guilty of a want of genius. But will those who are so eager in extolling General Lee inform us why this Christian hero had not a word to say in regard to the atrocious treatment of our prisoners in rebel hands, especially at Belle Isle, under his eyes? Will the flatterers of this Virginian gentleman explain why his reports of operations in the field were so unfair and deceptive? Will the friends of this simple-hearted soldier say why he tried a trick of words in his final correspondence with General Grant?

There is no act known to us during his long career as a rebel in arms which should favorably signalize Robert E. Lee among hundreds of his fellow-rebels. Why does not Johnston, or Ewell, or Longstreet, or Hill deserve the same praise? What excellence of character or excuse for conduct has he which they had not? Do those who speak so softly of his crimes feel as gently about Jefferson Davis? Yet Davis at least heartily believed in his cause, and it was Lee, at the head of the army, who made Davis's crime so prolonged and bloody.

We have no emotion of vengeance against General Lee. We would not hang him -- not because he has not deserved hanging, but from motives of state policy. Neither are we inaccessible to admiration for a foe. Major André we can pity, but General Arnold we despise. Robert E. Lee was an American citizen educated by his country, who, from a mistaken sense of duty, deserted his flag. Had his story ended there it would have been sorrowful. But he drew his sword against that flag not because of any oppression or outrage, but because by peaceful and lawful means it bade fair to become the symbol of justice and equal rights; and he drew it, thank God! in vain. There his story ends, and it is infamous."

--HARPER'S WEEKLY. A JOURNAL OF CIVILIZATION. / Volume IX, Issue 434

Lee was a bum, and not just because I say so.

Walt

96 posted on 05/13/2003 7:35:19 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
And I bet you think Grant wasn't right, even though he was a complete drunk and a loser before the war started.
97 posted on 05/13/2003 7:36:44 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Let me ask you a question Walt, go back to the last Presidential election and pretend just for a moment that the U.S. split into two sides because of the Election fiasco. One side is Bush supporters the other side Gore supporters, the next thing you know there's a war. Which side is right, which side is wrong? Which side is Traitor, which side is Patriot? You know what it doesn't even matter because the winner will alway's rewrite history regardless of the facts, that's just the way it is and I just get pissed when P.C. nutcase's continually assault our heritage & history. They're changing history and haven't even fought anyone yet or is that exactly what they're doing now? Assaulting us, fighting us and finally conquering us. I got news for you America is next, Old Glory is the next target and some of ya'll can't even see it happening.
98 posted on 05/13/2003 7:36:44 AM PDT by HELLRAISER II
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To: VMI70
As a southerner and a Scoutmaster, I have a deep abiding respect for the honor, dignity and heritage of the South regarding the states rights issues brought forth by the Confederacy.

The slavery component of the Confederate platform was it's immoral underbelly and will continue to haunt it for years....

Most BSA Council's are named after the area (ie: Atlanta Area Council) and not a individual.

Most of us could agree, regardless of our viewpoint, that Robert E. Lee was both inspirational and divisive in many ways.

The purpose of Scouting is not to make a politcal statement but to grow young boys into good, moral men and future leaders.

If the council felt a name change was appropriate, so be it, heritage supporters should pick and choose their battles wisely regarding heritage.....

Scouting is a great program for young boys....

NeverGore

99 posted on 05/13/2003 7:37:24 AM PDT by nevergore (If stupidity hurt, Frenchmen would be writhing in pain....)
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To: nevergore
Is being politically correct teaching these young men to be moral and just? Or is it teaching them to bend over to authority?
100 posted on 05/13/2003 7:38:52 AM PDT by samuel_adams_us
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