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Saving Our Economy
My fetid brain | May 16, 2003 | Harpseal

Posted on 05/16/2003 4:49:38 AM PDT by harpseal

The job market for tech graduates is tight and getting tighter. People with years of technical experience are working at flipping burgers and saying “Welcome to Wal-Mart.” Outsourcing every corporate function except senior management to low wage nations such as India and China has become the latest fashion in the executive suites. There are many reasons why this has become the fad du jour but if the USA is to remain a livable nation it is time for Government policy to change in order to maintain the American economy. Those technical jobs that remain inside the USA are being given to low cost “Guest Workers” under the H1B program or if companies have gotten squeezed by the minor contraction of the H1B program they bring in people under the L1 visa program. In the interim totally qualified Americans are pounding the pavement looking for these same jobs. The means to maintain the American economy as the engine that drives the world are there but there are some government policies that must be changed. I am proposing a ten point program that will put the American economy in the front again.

First, and foremost the H1B visa program should be eliminated today. ALL H1B VISA SHOULD BE ENDED TODAY AND THOSE PEOPLE IN THIS NATION ON THAT PROGRAM SHOULD BE ON THE NEXT FLIGHT OUT OF THE USA. If this causes a hardship for some companies, oh well, the H1B program was based on the supposition there were NO Americans who could do the job. So they lied and they should pay a price for their misrepresentation.

Second, the cost of outsourcing should reflect its true cost to these companies. Revise the tax code so that the investment tax credit does not cover any development done outside the USA unless such development can not be done inside the USA. Fraud in such certification should be considered a felony and prosecuted.

Third, get rid of section 1706 of the IRS code that made it almost impossible for the independent IT consultants to do business directly with companies.

Fourth, the temporary visas for engineers coming into the USA to learn what the jobs of current IT workers are should not be granted.

Fifth, simplify the tax and regulatory environment so that contractors can be employed more readily. (See comments on section 1706).

Sixth, tighten the L1 visa program so that it is not used as way around the H1B program. In short no L1 visas will be issued to facilitate moving American jobs offshore.

Seventh, prosecute anyone who has certified falsely that they were unable to find American workers for a job when all they were doing was trying to save money by bringing in H1B low wage guest workers. A few felony convictions in this realm will do wonders for stopping future false certifications.

Eighth, repeal all government subsidies for foreign investment, and institute tariffs against those nations which only will purchase American products if we build facilities in their nations. Such restrictions by foreign nations are an infringement on the free market and must be fought. More factories in China will do nothing to improve the American economic condition. Now even Mexico is feeling the pinch the investment by American firms in the People’s Republic of China. In short access to the American Market should be dependant upon free access of American firms to the market in other nations. If guest workers from a nation are to be allowed in the USA then Americans must be allowed to work in that nation.

Ninth, the American system of higher education should be focused on Americans first and foremost. If foreign students wish to come to the USA to study that is fine if there is space available, but only on a space available basis. Priority must go to those students who will be graduating as American citizens and the public funding of higher education should not be expended on students from other nations who seek to come here study and take the knowledge back to another nation to compete with the USA.

Tenth, we as a nation must revise our overall tax and regulatory environment. We must get away from the soak the rich formulas. We must no longer have the legal system seek to micro manage every action of every person. Rule of law is important but the law should not concern itself with trivialities. We need to restore balance in our tax laws and regulatory system.

These ten points are based on come very sound principles and are a natural conservative agenda in my opinion. They are based on controlling our borders. They are based on not subsidizing foreign nationals at the expense of the basics of American citizens. They are based on demanding free markets from our competitors. They are based on returning sanity to our tax and regulatory systems. They are based on demanding responsibility and truth from our nation’s companies in their dealings with our immigration policies. They are based on holding companies accountable for their actions.

No, none of this is a giveaway program. They are not based upon taking away a free market but rather on expanding a free market. India and China in fact the entire world has a sound basis to become sound stable and prosperous economies at present. The USA should not experience deflation and depression to subsidize these nations.

The political implications of the above proposals should be clear to everyone. Advocacy of these proposals would appeal to a broad cross section of the American electorate. They could be enough to insure a long term governing plurality for the political party that adopted them. It is my hope that the Republican Party will take them to heart.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government
KEYWORDS: foreigntrade; freemarket; hightech; jobmarket; unemployment
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Some ideas that needed to come out.
1 posted on 05/16/2003 4:49:38 AM PDT by harpseal
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To: bvw; Tauzero; Matchett-PI; Ken H; rohry; headsonpikes; RCW2001; blam; hannosh4LtGovernor; arete; ...
For your comments
2 posted on 05/16/2003 4:55:12 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
One doesn't have to depend on an employer for ones financial security. "Technical" people (or anyone else for that matter) can start their own businesses and create their own jobs.

I did, many here also have.
3 posted on 05/16/2003 5:19:17 AM PDT by DB ()
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To: harpseal
Second, the cost of outsourcing should reflect its true cost to these companies. Revise the tax code so that the investment tax credit does not cover any development done outside the USA unless such development can not be done inside the USA. Fraud in such certification should be considered a felony and prosecuted.

Love to see it..... but don't hold your breath.

4 posted on 05/16/2003 5:29:16 AM PDT by YankeeReb
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To: harpseal
The republicans and the democrats both want american factories to be closed and replaced by foreign ones, they both want cheap foreign labor to replace american workers. I dont see how we can avoid disaster in this country. There will be fewer and fewer jobs for americans, and most businesses fail.
5 posted on 05/16/2003 5:35:40 AM PDT by waterstraat
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To: DB
One doesn't have to depend on an employer for ones financial security. "Technical" people (or anyone else for that matter) can start their own businesses and create their own jobs.

Likewise for starting one's own business. However due to section 1706 of the IRS code which specifically covers computer programmers and analysts, electrical and electronic engineers, draftsmen, and several other high tech professions the liability of cutomers for additional taxers makes purchasing these services from small companies very difficult. The repeal of this provision of the tax code that imputes liability for an employer/employee relationship ios one of the provisions I included. I did, many here also have.

6 posted on 05/16/2003 5:41:25 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: waterstraat
The republicans and the democrats both want american factories to be closed and replaced by foreign ones, they both want cheap foreign labor to replace american workers. I dont see how we can avoid disaster in this country. There will be fewer and fewer jobs for americans, and most businesses fail.

I am presuming that one of these parties will see the light for their partisan advantage and winning and or maintaining power.

7 posted on 05/16/2003 5:42:58 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
They are based on demanding free markets from our competitors.

No offense, but how do we demand "free markets" from our competitors while closing our labor market at the same time? I would revise your proposal in some ways: don't end H1B altogether; there are non-IT jobs that rely on foreign workers, notably in health care. Kicking them out of the country will do actual harm to regular Americans.

Demand that IT workers stop blaming external factors for all of their job woes. An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job. An IT worker wanting a job to come to him has no room to complain.

The modern IT worker has much in common with the factory worker of the early 20th century. It is no longer an elite field, untouchable to the masses. Too many people keep flocking to certification programs, recalling the laughable exhortation of the '60's that "plastics" were the future. What is needed is creativity. If you want to be a standard IT worker, you're going to be treated like a textile worker, because you are now a dime a dozen. Create, innovate, do something different: that's what the market will reward.

8 posted on 05/16/2003 5:50:31 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: Mr. Bird
No offense, but how do we demand "free markets" from our competitors while closing our labor market at the same time?

The alternative is we open our market to them while their market is closed to us. that is insanity. we demand free acess to their market or they face a cut off of access to our market it is really simple.

I would revise your proposal in some ways: don't end H1B altogether; there are non-IT jobs that rely on foreign workers, notably in health care.

There are a number of Americans looking for these same jobs. I would suggest a good faith effort at hiring and training and paying a sufficient wage to attract the appropriate talent.

Kicking them out of the country will do actual harm to regular Americans.

This assertion needs proof before we maintain H1B workers in this nation.

Demand that IT workers stop blaming external factors for all of their job woes. An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job. An IT worker wanting a job to come to him has no room to complain.Give me a break. I can cite numerous cases of highly skilled and educated IT workers who are the cream of the crop and were making six figure incomes from consulting less than two years ago who can not now find a position for $40,000/year. yes, tehy are willing to travel and relocate. The big question is why you want Americans out of work so that foreign nationals can be employed? maybe you resent IT professionals or engineers or maybe doctors it really does not matter. You will note my proposal states that free access to our markets would be granted to those nations that in turn give free access to their markets. What you seem to want is only the USA to be subject to an unlimited exploitation by cheap foreign labor.

By the way I, you will note that my proposal include the same principles of free and fair trade for manufacturing as for IT and every othereconomic endevor. The modern IT worker has much in common with the factory worker of the early 20th century. It is no longer an elite field, untouchable to the masses. Too many people keep flocking to certification programs, recalling the laughable exhortation of the '60's that "plastics" were the future. What is needed is creativity. If you want to be a standard IT worker, you're going to be treated like a textile worker, because you are now a dime a dozen. Create, innovate, do something different: that's what the market will reward.

9 posted on 05/16/2003 6:05:36 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Mr. Bird
...An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job...

Yes, Calcutta is lovely this time of year. Isn't it almost time for the annual toss the dead into the river day?

What a sight.
And housing is cheap.

10 posted on 05/16/2003 6:07:20 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: harpseal
I can cite numerous cases of highly skilled and educated IT workers who are the cream of the crop and were making six figure incomes from consulting less than two years ago who can not now find a position for $40,000/year.

Very true, but this has less to do with an influx of foreign workers than an overall increase in the supply of qualified native labor. If you go to Monster or CareerBuilder, there are over 4000 jobs listed for programmers, more than any other occupation except maybe sales. The jobs are out there, but there are too many of you fighting for them.

11 posted on 05/16/2003 6:19:24 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
Excuse me Americans are not allowed to work in IT in India one must be an Indian national.
12 posted on 05/16/2003 6:21:49 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Mr. Bird
Very true, but this has less to do with an influx of foreign workers than an overall increase in the supply of qualified native labor. If you go to Monster or CareerBuilder, there are over 4000 jobs listed for programmers, more than any other occupation except maybe sales. The jobs are out there, but there are too many of you fighting for them.

If there are too many Americans fighting for iT jobs why on earth do we keep importing H1B's to increase the competition. You have just undercut your own ccase as to the jobs listed on Monster.com etc. The majority of these are listings for which no American will be hired. Companies in order to import cheap H1b workers must list jobs first. In short I am not buying into your arguing for destroying the Amnerican Middle class in order to subsidize foreign nationals. Why do you hate America?

13 posted on 05/16/2003 6:25:32 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Course not.

14 posted on 05/16/2003 6:26:02 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: harpseal
There is nothing wrong with our economy, it is just readjusting.
15 posted on 05/16/2003 6:27:10 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
That is one of my points that needs to be implemented Americans must be allowed to compete fairly for IT positions outside the USA even in India. If they can come here why can't we go there?
16 posted on 05/16/2003 6:27:53 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Realistically, only a small percentage of people can start and succeed in a small business. When things were going in the right direction, 4 out of 5 failed.

Yet you hear that all the time here. Laid off from the car wash? Start your own Microsoft.
Some people here can only be explained as shills.
17 posted on 05/16/2003 6:30:07 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (stupid isn't enough)
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To: biblewonk
Well it is time to readjust our economy to take care of Americans before taking care of foreign nationals. We have engaged in some specific polices as a nation that have hurt a large number of Americans to subsidize foreign nationals. It is time to stop those subsidies. I am realy quite sick of those who call themselves conservatives who keep defending violations of the free market principles that hurt Ameican interests and telling their fellow Americans to shut and take it. There is an old saying sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. All I am saying is protect our borders enforce our laws prosecute those who have violated our laws and demand equal treatment from foreign nations. What is so extreme about those proposals?
18 posted on 05/16/2003 6:32:14 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Their government is tending to the business of running their country, for the nation of India.

That seems to be the big difference.

I have no ideas for a solution, except remove our entire government and start over.
19 posted on 05/16/2003 6:32:21 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (stupid doesn't explain it but treason does.)
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
In the field of IT how does one maintain customers and start a business when the customers are faced with the IRS demanding that after they have paid their independant contractors as contractors they then pony up all the taxes as though these people were employees. There was a case at Microsoft in the 1990's where this was the situation.
20 posted on 05/16/2003 6:34:38 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Geez, remember my first post? I said don't do away with H1B altogether, because there are non-IT jobs that utilize the program in a fair and necessary way. I have not once said that American companies should be hiring foreign nationals for IT jobs that can be done by ready and willing Americans. If all of those jobs posted go to foreign nationals, pick a company, and sue the s**t out of them. If you speak the truth, you have a great case.

But why am I not seeing any posts from the anti-H1B crowd about the lawsuits they are filing? There is legal recourse for what you are alleging, and yet not once have I seen someone seek redress. Is it easier to just complain, or is there more to the individual stories than people let on? This is an honest question, and not an accusation.

21 posted on 05/16/2003 6:35:38 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: harpseal
The whole spectrum of labor and market is very complex. I believe this list of 10 things is very 1 sided. I work as an engineer in avionics and we subcontract some of our less exciting work to the Chinese. They do good engineering for about a dollar or two an hour. That sounds pretty free market to me.
22 posted on 05/16/2003 6:39:33 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: Mr. Bird
There is legal recourse for what you are alleging, and yet not once have I seen someone seek redress.

There are some civil cases pending including one's against SUN and Microsoft. In general most IT professionals do not wish to file such suits because after filing such a suit one is completely unemployable in the industry an dmost of these people do not hold to the "Class action" lawsuit ideal. Further there is a problem with standing to bring actions. Since the primary transaction for getting in an H1B worker is between the employer and the INS there is no standing for a job applicant to bring suit.

Now as to those companies that are supposedly using the H1B program in a fair and necessary way I say they should prove that is the case. In short the burden of proof must be on the company. They are the one's who wish to import a non-citizen to work in this nation. They should prove the absolute need. We can then reinstitute a very limited program to address those needs. If we are to have hardships endured by Americans let it be by those who wish to import foreign nationals rather than by Americans who seek to work.

23 posted on 05/16/2003 6:47:09 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Now as to those companies that are supposedly using the H1B program in a fair and necessary way I say they should prove that is the case. In short the burden of proof must be on the company

My company is one, and a simple FOIA to the INS will reveal everything to be above board. The "burden of proof" is borne through the process. The proof itself is on file. Again, these are non-IT positions.

24 posted on 05/16/2003 6:55:48 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: biblewonk
The whole spectrum of labor and market is very complex. I believe this list of 10 things is very 1 sided. I work as an engineer in avionics and we subcontract some of our less exciting work to the Chinese. They do good engineering for about a dollar or two an hour. That sounds pretty free market to me.

I would agree that it was free market if the USA avionics industry had full access to market in China without the demand that goods and service be actually produced in China. Further, the lower level experience in engineering that you are getting for a dollar or two an hour would also be an excellent entry level engineering position for an American engineer. Does that dollar or two an hour count the write off of expenses for engineering development? Who will be doing the advanced avionics engineeriong in a few years?

If it is a free and fair market situation then there is no negative impact from my points. If it is not then you are taking tax dollars to subsidize foreign nations and their nationals.

The fact that you are employed and are presumably making money off this situation really should not be all that significant. Clearly you could be employed and making more money with a fully free market for American goods and services.

In short a free market wirks both ways. now if Chinese companies were subcontracting or contracting their major deveopment to your company without restrictionbs on what subcontractors you use then I would state we had a free market situation. so far all you have described is a flow of dollars jobs and engineering experience and expertise to China in return for scut work product at low cost. You have described this without teh requisite free access of American companies to sell their product without resrtictions.

25 posted on 05/16/2003 6:56:37 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Mr. Bird
My company is one, and a simple FOIA to the INS will reveal everything to be above board. The "burden of proof" is borne through the process. The proof itself is on file. Again, these are non-IT positions.

I presuming you are being accurate and truthful so I merely ask for my own edification what positions you can not find Americans to work at what qualifications do you require that Americans do not have? Certainly it can not be Doctors, or Nurses. These positions require liscenses.

26 posted on 05/16/2003 6:59:45 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
It is most certainly nurses, more than any. You cannot just truck in loads of nurses from just anywhere, of course. They must be from a country which provides an education that is at least equivalent to that of U.S. nursing schools. The Phillipines is a good example. They must pass the requisite U.S. exams and be eligible for licensure in the respective state, as well.

Believe me, if you started deporting foreign nurses, you'd see hospitals closing beds by the dozen, which would not be good for anyone. And I can guarantee you that there are no U.S. nurses sitting around without a job, unless that's the way they like it.

27 posted on 05/16/2003 7:06:58 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: harpseal
There is nothing extreme about your proposals, as a starting point.

The job listings on monster, dice, hotjobs, et.al., are more often preliminary requirements for visa certifications, rather than sincere solicitations for applicants.

It's curious how some on this board insist that everyone should "relocate" when foreigners are being imported to take their jobs. Many IT workers have for years traveled and/or relocated for new jobs and projects, and mostly at their own expense. The difference today is that Americans are not being hired, regardless of their qualifications or their willingness to relocate.

The 1706 rule gave rise to a plague of "recruiting firms" whose sole purpose was to keep IT wages out of the hands of the people actually doing the work. That started even before the H-1B program spun completely out of control under Clinton. The recruiters even laughingly call themselves "pimps". Normally recruiting/contracting firms abscond with half to two thirds of the money paid for IT work, and provide little for their cut. Repealing the 1706 rule would eliminate that waste immediately.

28 posted on 05/16/2003 7:30:00 AM PDT by meadsjn
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To: harpseal
http://www.recallgraydavis.com/Petition.asp
29 posted on 05/16/2003 7:30:59 AM PDT by jetson
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To: Mr. Bird
Ah nursing as the profession where we have supposedly insufficient people to fill the needs. I note that the wages of Nurses have not jumped to magnificent levels. I note there are many nurses who are out of the profession who say it is not economic to go back to work. Within the past year I know of MSN who were out of work for a fairly long period.

I do not buy it. If your documentation shows you have increased the compensation for Nurses to the point where the compensation is better than the CEO of your health care organization then I will buy it as valid. A good nurse should be getting paid at a professional level if you are providing that level of compensation then

30 posted on 05/16/2003 8:17:10 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Mr. Bird
Believe me, if you started deporting foreign nurses, you'd see hospitals closing beds by the dozen, which would not be good for anyone.

That is a business decision they would make in the regulatory envirornment they face. alternatively they could attract more nurses by increasing the compensation and benefits and improving working conditions.

And I can guarantee you that there are no U.S. nurses sitting around without a job, unless that's the way they like it.

Once more I can guarantee there are more people who would be willing to return to the nursing job market if the pay, benefits and conditions were better.

31 posted on 05/16/2003 8:26:29 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: meadsjn
Repeal of the 1706 rule would benefit everyone in the IT and engineering fields and get the US government more tax money. It was enacted as a favor to the then Big eight accounting firms and snuck through in the middle of the night and never repealed.
32 posted on 05/16/2003 8:28:20 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
I would agree that it was free market if the USA avionics industry had full access to market in China without the demand that goods and service be actually produced in China. Further, the lower level experience in engineering that you are getting for a dollar or two an hour would also be an excellent entry level engineering position for an American engineer. Does that dollar or two an hour count the write off of expenses for engineering development? Who will be doing the advanced avionics engineeriong in a few years?

We do the advanced engineering, they do the sh*t work known as verification. In that they only do the grunt work, we do the final verification. We hate doing it and the cost of an engineer + support is about 200,000 per year here. The product we make goes into boeing commercial aircraft which only has one competitor. That whole equation is handled as far up the chain as washington. This may be the first year that Airbus ever outsells Boeing. Washington can pull a couple of strings and change that at anytime and they probably will. That's how things work which is why I disagree with the premise of the 10 points.

The fact that you are employed and are presumably making money off this situation really should not be all that significant. Clearly you could be employed and making more money with a fully free market for American goods and services.

Not true. That same thinking is what fuels unions who think they can isolate themselves from the fact that there are people willing and able to do their job for a small fraction of the money. You can't live in that kind of a vacuum(sp), that's what causes entire companies to leave or relocate their operations.


33 posted on 05/16/2003 8:29:21 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: harpseal
A new graduate nurse with no experience and merely an AA degree is currently making over $40,000/year without overtime (in Baltimore). Their wages are increasing at faster than a 7% rate annually. There are more nursing positions in this country than there are licensed nurses. If I raised wages by 50%, the number of nurses would not necessarily increase, but your medical bills would. And then the government would force me to lower them, and then I would go out of business, and then no nurses would be working, and you and I would fall ill and die.
34 posted on 05/16/2003 8:29:26 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: harpseal
The point being that health care is NOT your average supply and demand operation. In many respects, it's not even qualitative competition that drives the market. Because of this, it is impossible to simply raise wages and/or benefits (which are really just dollars in another form) to address shortages, because we cannot offset those expenses with price increases.

One thing that can be done, and it will be, is to restructure the care delivery model to reduce the role of nurses. Many people, including myself, believe that this is the wrong move for the long term, but we don't mint money here in health care. The H1B program helps alleviate some of these market pressures.

35 posted on 05/16/2003 8:39:36 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: Mr. Bird
A new graduate nurse with no experience and merely an AA degree is currently making over $40,000/year without overtime (in Baltimore).

Perhaps when that number is $85,000/year I admit that there is a definite need.

Their wages are increasing at faster than a 7% rate annually.

There is nothing sacred about such a rate of increase in a profession that is traditionally one of the lower paid professions nationally.

There are more nursing positions in this country than there are licensed nurses. If I raised wages by 50%, the number of nurses would not necessarily increase, but your medical bills would.

There are more nursing positions that do not actually need nurses in them but that could use such people as paramedics and former military medics than one can count. If you raised wages by 50% and improved working conditions you would have all the nurses you need unless and until someone else came up with competeing bids. Now the fact you would have to raise your charges does not particularly disturb me. The government forcing you to lower them does. These higher wages would certainly attract a large number of nursing students and rapidly the supply of fully qualified people would fully meet demand.

And then the government would force me to lower them, and then I would go out of business, and then no nurses would be working, and you and I would fall ill and die.Socialism is hell. The big problem is the government regulation and subsidy. You just want a little to benefit you when what I am proposing is merely regulating our bordersand ensuring free market access for American businesses. I presume that H1B Visa's may make sense for a brief period for the health care industry but by using the free market within the USA all those needs can be filled.

36 posted on 05/16/2003 8:50:14 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: biblewonk
That whole equation is handled as far up the chain as washington.

Certainly this describes the situation in your industry precisely. I note that Boeing in order to sell to the Chinese government had to transfer significant technology and build a factory in China. This is clearly a violation of free market principles.

I gather you think that Boeing does not make a product that can effectively compete with Airbus if you do not wish a free market. I actually have a more faith in Boeing than you seem to. Now the economics of the verification are really impressive to me but how much technology had to be given to China to get that? That should be included in the overall cost of this work but it is not.

I favor a free markety without the free flow of foreign nationals into the USA. My problem is why must the factory have been built in China when clearly the existing factories here in the USA would have been able to do the job if we had free access to their market the way their products have free access to ours.

37 posted on 05/16/2003 8:57:26 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Certainly this describes the situation in your industry precisely. I note that Boeing in order to sell to the Chinese government had to transfer significant technology and build a factory in China. This is clearly a violation of free market principles.

I gather you think that Boeing does not make a product that can effectively compete with Airbus if you do not wish a free market. I actually have a more faith in Boeing than you seem to. Now the economics of the verification are really impressive to me but how much technology had to be given to China to get that? That should be included in the overall cost of this work but it is not.

I favor a free markety without the free flow of foreign nationals into the USA. My problem is why must the factory have been built in China when clearly the existing factories here in the USA would have been able to do the job if we had free access to their market the way their products have free access to ours.

It's really very simple. They wouldn't have bought the planes if we didn't do that. That is how business works. If you think they will simply buy our planes without getting some piece of the action you don't know how business works. That will never change and calling for a change is silly. A small example of Boeing happened right here in CR Ia. Hy-Vee wanted to build a new grocery store where there oldest one stood. It was a 4 million dollar project. In your overly simplistic model they would simply have done that but that's now how it happened. They turned it into a political thing where the store was needed by the poor people who live close by. They don't have cars you see. So through advertising and politicing they squoze a million dollars out of the city to build the new store. That's just how the world works sir, welcome.

38 posted on 05/16/2003 9:03:01 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
I note that the critics of my proposal work in two of the most regulated subsidized industries, health care and areospace. They are complaining about so called government largess to factiry wiorkers and IT people when they are suckling on the government teat.
39 posted on 05/16/2003 9:05:39 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Once more I can guarantee there are more people who would be willing to return to the nursing job market if the pay, benefits and conditions were better.

You hit the nail on the head!! I've always been of the opinion that you can get any type of work done whether it be nursing, I.T. or cutting grass if you pay people enough to do it so that they can live. Look at most fast food places, they're always crying that they depend on the labor of illegal immigrants because americans are too lazy to do the work, or feel that it's beneath them. Then you compare what they're willing to pay now vs what they paid in 1980, and it's minimum wage or thereabouts. The only way anyone can afford to work in that kind of environment is if they live 20 people to a house. Sorry but americans shouldn't be forced to live that way.

If you cut off the flow of cheap labor, the work would still get done, but either the wages would rise or productivity would rise so you have 1 $20.00/hr worker doing the work of four $5.00 /hr workers. This would happen by pure economics, no government forcing a rise in wages.

40 posted on 05/16/2003 9:06:07 AM PDT by YankeeReb
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To: biblewonk
I have no illusions about how the world actually works but for someone getting largess from the government for one's industry to say to thers root hog or die is rather hypocritcal to say the least. In the long run were the plane orders from the Peoiple's Republic of China a net gain or loss for Boeing? Perhaps if we closed a portion of our market to the Chinese say engineering services until they opened a larger portion of their market to our businesses we would be better off after all as you say that is the way business is done. They need to sell their products here so they had better go along with us right? It is just the way business is done. unions argue against the free market and I am arguing for a free market becuase it is most efficient but unless and until the market is free for everyone there will be major advantages accfruing to those who have government restricting access to their markets. I am proposing using the same tactics used against us and am being questioned for it by beneficiaries of those tactics.

You were not born a seniort engineer. you had to study and work hard to get there. You had to do the scut work of verification and that was where I am sure you started out. By farming out this scut work of verification to the Chinese your company is depriving itself of the future engineers it needs. It can then eventually farm out the senior engineering work to China but then the Chinese will be in the drivers seat but you will be retired so you will not care but your children will be serving the visiting masters.

41 posted on 05/16/2003 9:15:37 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
Socialism has become so ingrained in our country that it's no longer ecognized as such.
There is little to no free enterprise in either health care or aerospace.
42 posted on 05/16/2003 9:23:24 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (Stupid doesn't explain it but treason does.)
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To: YankeeReb
I find it significant that the ones who are complaining the loudest about my proposal are the ones working in regulated industries that are living off the government. Health Care is so addicted to medicare funding it is ridiculous. Aerospace is also government funded to the extreme andf these are our people who wish to deny others a decent standard of living. Would I flib burgers for McDonalds for $50/hr. You bet your butt I would. I would gladly haul garbage for that or numerous other jobs.

We live in a nation where CEO's who run companies into the ground work in the easiest working conditions are compensated in the millions for what can only be described a gross incompetence. this is the same nation where those who are willing to deliver honest value for the dollar are unpaid and not able to meet their obligations due to government policy that is against our nation's priciples.

43 posted on 05/16/2003 9:24:03 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
they are suckling on the government teat.

You clearly have a limited comprehension of how the health care industry is financed. Rather than suckling at the government teat, health care providers must acquiesce to government price controls, regardless of who is paying the bill. Federal and state laws also limit institutional recourse when a "customer" lacks the funds to pay. In other words, we are probably the only industry that is required by law to give our services away. Medicare and Medicaid reimbursment schedules are lower than any free-market could possibly allow, so the teat you speak of often leaves us hungrier than we were before meal time.

Yes, if we decided to pay nurses a million dollars a year, yippee, no more shortage. But where in the hell do you think the money to pay them that would come from? Believe me, my organization would love to compete head to head with other providers out there, no-holds-barred. But because so much of the electorate believes quality health care is a "right" and not something that should be compensated for based on value, we have the system we do. That's why the next time you have to go the emergency room (heaven forbid), you'll likely be in line behind some destitute child with a hangnail, who will use $1000 in time and resources for free.

44 posted on 05/16/2003 9:25:20 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
Yet these benficiaries of Socialism want the "Free Market" that is not a Free Market to grind down others.
46 posted on 05/16/2003 9:28:39 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: harpseal
I have no illusions about how the world actually works but for someone getting largess from the government for one's industry to say to thers root hog or die is rather hypocritcal to say the least. In the long run were the plane orders from the Peoiple's Republic of China a net gain or loss for Boeing? Perhaps if we closed a portion of our market to the Chinese say engineering services until they opened a larger portion of their market to our businesses we would be better off after all as you say that is the way business is done. They need to sell their products here so they had better go along with us right? It is just the way business is done. unions argue against the free market and I am arguing for a free market becuase it is most efficient but unless and until the market is free for everyone there will be major advantages accfruing to those who have government restricting access to their markets. I am proposing using the same tactics used against us and am being questioned for it by beneficiaries of those tactics.

You were not born a seniort engineer. you had to study and work hard to get there. You had to do the scut work of verification and that was where I am sure you started out. By farming out this scut work of verification to the Chinese your company is depriving itself of the future engineers it needs. It can then eventually farm out the senior engineering work to China but then the Chinese will be in the drivers seat but you will be retired so you will not care but your children will be serving the visiting masters

I find no more fault with my company than with you or I choosing to buy a Tool Shop tool from Menards rather than a Snap On tool. Obviously labor is part of the free market too. My company management realizes it needs a percentage of inhouse machining and engineering and that it can also farm out a percentage to cheaper job houses. I guess none of these things register as unfair short sighted to me.

In Boeings competition with Airbus we have an American company totally home grown and a free enterprise driven by the Market. Airbus is the product of Euro governments that saw they were missing out on a market and wanted it. They built the industry, not free enterprise. They forked over billions and like the Japanese steel industry after WW2, they learned from our mistakes and do the same job more efficiently. Obviously our government would be foolish to let Boeing go out and work in such an obviously unfree market environment and they don't. The overriding point to this is that in both cases, governments are trying to do what is best for it's people's financially. "Money takes care of itself" in the long run it but it is such a complex system only God understands it.

47 posted on 05/16/2003 9:30:13 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: harpseal
I've no strong opinion on point one.

Point 2: I'd prefer removing the credit entirely, combined with lowering the tax rate.

Point 3: Fine by me.

Point 4: Fine.

Point 5: Yes.

Point 6: "no L1 visas will be issued to facilitate moving American jobs offshore.", would be extremely difficult to empirically measure and enforce. I'd prefer a vast simplification: The US will issue up to X Visas per year, for purposes A,B,C, for time periods D,E,F, applications processed on a first come, first-serve basis.

Point 7: That would also be very difficult to measure and enforce, either uniformly or justly, and would quickly become just another tool for extortion by the state.

The main problem with our laws is not that they are not detailed enough, or that we need more laws to address the unintended consequences of the ones in place, like H1-B. We have a surfeit of laws, all in far too much detail, going far beyond the state's capacity to uniformly enforce them. Because the state's resources are finite, each agent of the executive *must* choose to prosecute some violators, and let others be. He is naturally going to make choices that serve the interests of himself and his faction.

Point 8: I am opposed to this. I am in favor of a uniform tariff.

Point 9: Once again, this addresses a problem that would not exist we're it not for socialism. The problem would disappear if the government stopped issuing and backing student loans. This would have several good effects: It would lower the cost of higher education, reduce the number of Americans seeking college degrees, and restore the value of a college education (that value having degraded over the last few decades, in terms of the actual learning and earning power of the graduate.)

Point 10: Of course. :)





48 posted on 05/16/2003 9:30:58 AM PDT by Tauzero
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To: Mr. Bird
You clearly have a limited comprehension of how the health care industry is financed. Rather than suckling at the government teat, health care providers must acquiesce to government price controls, regardless of who is paying the bill. Federal and state laws also limit institutional recourse when a "customer" lacks the funds to pay. In other words, we are probably the only industry that is required by law to give our services away. Medicare and Medicaid reimbursment schedules are lower than any free-market could possibly allow, so the teat you speak of often leaves us hungrier than we were before meal time.

I did not say the government was generous or even fair but due to that regulation you speak of and the fact that medicare, medicaid and private insurance covers most of the health care costs in the USA I stand by my staement taht it is a government financed and controlled industry.

Yes, if we decided to pay nurses a million dollars a year, yippee, no more shortage. But where in the hell do you think the money to pay them that would come from? Believe me, my organization would love to compete head to head with other providers out there, no-holds-barred. But because so much of the electorate believes quality health care is a "right" and not something that should be compensated for based on value, we have the system we do. That's why the next time you have to go the emergency room (heaven forbid), you'll likely be in line behind some destitute child with a hangnail, who will use $1000 in time and resources for free.

Actually you are a victim of socialism and I will conceed that as long as we have government price controlls on medical care we will have problems providing adequate care. Such has long been recognized as a problemand should be addressed seprately. So perhaps we should only have H1B visas for the health care industry. The problem is that will suprress the long term supply of labor in that field. You state dyou would love to compete head to head in a free market envirornment. I most certainly would love for you to be able to do so. The simple fact is your pricing should reflect your costs including your reasonable labor cvosts for nursing staff without having to recruit outside the USA. You will note that i have no qualms about legal immigrants working in the field. One of the problems facing you and others in the field of Medical administration is that the reguilation is so extreme. I have already had that emergency room wait you talk about. I personally really wish I cvould be treated at a vetrinary hospital. I think my dog gets better medical care than I do but that is just my personal view. I realize taht it is the government regulations that cause this. I suggest you re-read my points with particular emphasis on the changes to the regulatory envirornment.

49 posted on 05/16/2003 9:40:01 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Tauzero
Regarding point 7 the prosecution for perjury of those who perjured themmselves seems to me to be a fair thing to do. we could either pick a specific target number or go for some of the worst offendors first. We have had crimes committed but no prosecutions. I generally do not like excess laws but in this case we had the law and it was violated and great harm has resulted from that violation.

Regarding point 8 it is in order to open up markets for US goods and service that tarriffs have their most effect. I see no reason for a uniform tarriff if some nations are open to the free access of American businesses and others restrict our right to do business there.
50 posted on 05/16/2003 9:45:54 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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