Key to Getting in Hall of Fame? Hitting 500 Balls out of the Park

THE WALL STREET JOURNAL ^ | Friday, May 16, 2003 | ALLEN ST. JOHN

[circles]

I think 220 was being charitable. That gut had to reach all the way to 240.

[Alberta's Child]

LOL.

Then I'll concede that Cobb deserves to be in the Boxing Hall of Fame more than either of those guys does.

[dfwgator]

Babe Ruth would have hit a lot more home runs if only he'd cut down on the smoking, the drinking, and the sex....especially between innings.

[circles]

I think there was a Coach's poll in the 40s that voted Cobb the best player of all time, ahead of even Ruth. He also invested very well amassing a considerable fortune. He was a jerk who thought he was better than everybody else, even though in many ways he was.

He died alone and bitter despite all this. I guess there's a life's lesson to be learned here...

[Chi-townChief]

Hammerin' Hank is pretty high on my disliked athlete list. It was probably back in '65 or '66 when a couple of other kids and myself were at a Cubs / Braves game at Wrigley Field. We were down by the foul line getting autographs (this was long before they became the big business that they are now) before the game - I got pitcher Pat Jarvis', shortstop Woody Woodward's, and the great pinch-hitter Rico Carty's. Aaron came strolling by and we were all shouting "Hank, HANK!!" and he wouldn't even acknowledge us with a wave or a smile. Never cared too much for old Henry after that - great ballplayer but ...

[AuH2ORepublican]

"I remember when Carney Landsford won the batting title in Oakland. A lot of people said it was more impressive than when Boggs won in Boston the year before."

---

Carney actually won his only batting title while playing for the Red Sox in 1981 (he lost his 3B job to Wade Boggs late in the 1982 season, and was traded to the A's during the off-season). You must be thinking about 1989, when Carney finished second in batting to Kirby Puckett's. While the extra foul territory in Oakland made Carney's .336 average in 1989 more impressive, I don't think the difference in foul territory between Oakland and Fenway cost Carney 30 points in his BA (Boggs hit .366---with a .476 OBP!---when he led league in batting in 1988).

I think a more interesting study of the respective batting average effects of Fenway and Oakland is to compare the home and road batting averages of Carl Yastrzemski and Reggie Jackson. Yaz hit .285 lifetime, but I believe his career BA at Fenway was over .300 and that he hit below .260 on the road. Reggie's career BA was .262, but I think he hit .275 on the road and just .250 at home.

[jpl]

I think there was a Coach's poll in the 40s that voted Cobb the best player of all time, ahead of even Ruth.

Cobb, incredible as he was, was definitely not a better player than Ruth, I don't care how the coaches voted. Bill James has him ranked second behind Ruth and ahead of Honus Wagner, and I can certainly live with that.

[WaveThatFlag]

My bad. But the point still holds.

Dimaggo's home run numbers at the old Yankee Stadium were similiarly terrible because righties couldn't homer there.

[AuH2ORepublican]

I grew up as a huge Ty Cobb fan, and always considered him to be better than Ruth. But after looking at the big picture and understanding offensive stats better, there is no way that Cobb was as good as Ruth. When Cobb was voted as the best of all time, it was because mostly people considered batting average to be the most important offensive stat, and Ruth's dominance in On-Base Percentage and Slugging Percentage were overlooked. Babe Ruth is the greatest player of all time, followed by Honus Wagner, with Cobb and Willie Mays fighting it out for third place.

[Alberta's Child]

I never knew much about Aaron's personality and how he dealt with the fans.

Contrast that with Don Mattingly of the Yankees, who was basically thrown off the baseball card show circuit after a while when he retired. After spending a couple of hours signing autographs at a card show, he would then walk outside and see all the kids who couldn't get into the show -- and he'd sign autographs for them, too.

Despite his bad reputation, Reggie Jackson often went out of his way to accommdate fans at the ballpark. He signed a copy of his book for me at Yankee Stadium when he was playing for the Angels.

[circles]

Ruth's dominance ...Slugging Percentage

Did you know that Cobb led the American League something like 8 times in slugging percentage despite his lack of home runs?

[WaveThatFlag]

I might could argue that Ruth was the second greatest player of all time - to Ty Cobb

You could, but you'd be showing your ignorance:

Career slugging %:

Cobb: .512

Ruth: .690

next?

[Colonel_Flagg]

Not knowing how to use the inside part of the strike zone is mainly the result of the use of aluminum bats until professional baseball.

You don't find many guys willing to work inside nowadays, even fewer umpires who are willing to call the inside part of the plate, and more batters who charge the mound if you put one too close to their pearly whites. You're 100 percent right in this statement.

Let's put it this way .. if Barry Bonds had done any of the crap he pulls with Bob Gibson pitching, his next at-bat he'd deal with a fastball that would go in one ear and out the other. It's a different game.

[Colonel_Flagg]

next?

Since the object of baseball is to get on base, I submit the following:

Ruth's career OBP - .474
Theodore S. Williams' career OBP - .483

And since Williams essentially gave up five of his peak years to honorable military service, there's no telling what kind of career numbers he could have posted.

For my money, I'd still take Ruth, but slugging percentage alone does not a great player make.

[Alberta's Child]

This isn't a great indicator of a player's abilities, but I often like to see how many times a player has been on a winning team in his career.

I think Joe DiMaggio played in 10 World Series in his 13-year career. He was also on those 1936-39 Yankee teams that never seem to get mentioned among the greatest teams of all time, but were probably the greates dynasty in the history of major league baseball.

[WaveThatFlag]

Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Bo Jackson might have been the greatest player ever if he hadn't gotten injured. Archibald "Moonlight" Grahm (yes, he was a real person) might have become the greatest player if he hadn't decided to become a doctor.

All we can go by is the numbers we have. Ruth and Williams had essentially the same average and OBP. Ruth's SLG avg is 60 points (!!!) higher. Neither was a great defender. Ruth was also one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived.

Next?

[Ditto]

If expansion has diluted the quality of pitching, why shouldn't it also have diluted the quality of hitting and fielding?

It has. It evens out with the exception of when a guy who should be pitching in AA comes up against a serious major leaue hitter like those mentioned in the article. Their numbers go crazy then.

[Ditto]

I'm not sure about places like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia -- but I do know that the Astrodome and Busch Stadium in St. Louis were always considered the worst parks in the league for power hitters.

3 Rivers was much more home-run friendly than Forbes Field. Forbes had a 60' high scoreboard in left, a 40' high screen an right and measured 456' to left center with a 12' high wall. Home runs there were real shots. With such a big outfield, it was a great hitters park, but it was not a homerun hitters park.

[Alberta's Child]

Was the screen in right field put there to make up for a short porch? Wasn't that where "Kiner's Korner" was?

[AuH2ORepublican]

"Did you know that Cobb led the American League something like 8 times in slugging percentage despite his lack of home runs?"

---

Yes, Cobb led the AL in slugging 8 times and OBP 7 times---all before the Dead Ball Era ended in 1920 (when a certain Mr. Ruth began leading the league every year). The fact that Cobb would hit around 5 fewer homers than the AL home run leader (who usually hit between 11 and 15 homers) meant nothing because Cobb would outhit the guy by 50 points and hit more doubles and triples than him. But there is no comparison to Ruth's slugging and on-base marks. Ruth led the AL in slugging 13 times and in OBP 10 times, and usually led by substantial amounts. Even if Ruth hadn't pitched a day in the majors, I think one would have to consider him a better player than Cobb. And Ruth won an ERA title, won 20 games twice, had 2 years in the top-5 in strikeouts and had a career .671 winning percentage.

Oh, and Bill James wrote that most observers at the time believed that Ruth in his prime was a better defensive outfielder than Cobb in his prime. I don't necessarily believe this, but there it is.