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Edward Abbey: "Immigration and Liberal Taboos"
One Life at a Time, Please | 1988 | Edward Abbey

Posted on 05/19/2003 6:41:49 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder

Mondays really suck. Even if they’re busy, they still manage to be boring. Liberals and government goofs tend to lie low on Mondays, as if they know that conservatives are particularly testy on that day and dangerous to provoke. I hate being bored. I’ve tried most of the more popular sins at least once, so tonight I’m taking a shot at what quite a few Freepers would call Heresy.

Introduced for your perusal is a short essay from 1988 by the erstwhile patron saint of environmental extremists, Edward Abbey, author of The Monkey Wrench Gang. I say erstwhile as he seems to have fallen out of favor with that crowd; methinks they finally got around to reading his other works…

Immigration and Liberal Taboos

In the American Southwest, where I happen to live, only sixty miles north of the Mexican border, the subject of illegal aliens is a touchy one. Even the terminology is dangerous: the old word wetback is now considered a racist insult by all good liberals; and the perfectly correct terms illegal alien and illegal immigrant can set off charges of xenophobia, elitism, fascism, and the ever-popular genocide against anyone careless enough to use them. The only acceptable euphemism, it now appears, is something called undocumented worker. Thus the pregnant Mexican woman who appears, in the final stages of labor, at the doors of the emergency ward of an El Paso or San Diego hospital, demanding care for herself and the child she's about to deliver, becomes an "undocumented worker." The child becomes an automatic American citizen by virtue of its place of birth, eligible at once for all of the usual public welfare benefits. And with the child comes not only the mother but the child's family. And the mother's family. And the father's family. Can't break up families can we? They come to stay and they stay to multiply.

What of it? say the documented liberals; ours is a rich and generous nation, we have room for all, let them come. And let them stay, say the conservatives; a large, cheap, frightened, docile, surplus labor force is exactly what the economy needs. Put some fear into the unions: tighten discipline, spur productivity, whip up the competition for jobs. The conservatives love their cheap labor; the liberals love their cheap cause. (Neither group, you will notice, ever invites the immigrants to move into their homes. Not into their homes!) Both factions are supported by the cornucopia economists of the ever-expanding economy, who actually continue to believe that our basic resource is not land, air, water, but human bodies, more and more of them, the more the better in hive upon hive, world without end-ignoring the clear fact that those nations which most avidly practice this belief, such as Haiti, Puerto Rico, Mexico, to name only three, don't seem to be doing well. They look more like explosive slow-motion disasters, in fact, volcanic anthills, than functioning human societies. But that which our academic economists will not see and will not acknowledge is painfully obvious to los latinos: they stream north in ever-growing numbers.

Meanwhile, here at home in the land of endless plenty, we seem still unable to solve our traditional and nagging difficulties. After forty years of the most fantastic economic growth in the history of mankind, the United States remains burdened with mass unemployment, permanent poverty, an overloaded welfare system, violent crime, clogged courts, jam-packed prisons, commercial ("white-collar") crime, rotting cities and a poisoned environment, eroding farmlands and the disappearing family farm all of the usual forms of racial ethnic and sexual conflict (which immigration further intensifies), plus the ongoing destruction of what remains of our forests, fields, mountains, lakes, rivers, and seashores, accompanied by the extermination of whole specie's of plants and animals. To name but a few of our little nagging difficulties.

This being so, it occurs to some of us that perhaps evercontinuing industrial and population growth is not the true road to human happiness, that simple gross quantitative increase of this kind creates only more pain, dislocation, confusion, and misery. In which case it might be wise for us as American citizens to consider calling a halt to the mass influx of even more millions of hungry, ignorant, unskilled, and culturallymorally-generically impoverished people. At least until we have brought our own affairs into order. Especially when these uninvited millions bring with them an alien mode of life which - let us be honest about this - is not appealing to the majority of Americans. Why not? Because we prefer democratic government, for one thing; because we still hope for an open, spacious, uncrowded, and beautiful-yes, beautiful!-society, for another. The alternative, in the squalor, cruelty, and corruption of Latin America, is plain for all to see.

Yes, I know, if the American Indians had enforced such a policy none of us pale-faced honkies would be here. But the Indians were foolish, and divided, and failed to keep our WASP ancestors out. They've regretted it ever since.

To everything there is a season, to every wave a limit, to every range an optimum capacity. The United States has been fully settled, and more than full, for at least a century. We have nothing to gain, and everything to lose, by allowing the old boat to be swamped. How many of us, truthfully, would prefer to be submerged in the Caribbean-Latin version of civilization? (Howls of "Racism! Elitism! Xenophobia!" from the Marx brothers and the documented liberals.) Harsh words: but somebody has to say them. We cannot play "let's pretend" much longer, not in the present world.

Therefore-let us close our national borders to any further mass immigration, legal or illegal, from any source, as does every other nation on earth. The means are available, it's a simple technical-military problem. Even our Pentagon should be able to handle it. We've got an army somewhere on this planet, let's bring our soldiers home and station them where they can be of some actual and immediate benefit to the taxpayers who support them. That done, we can begin to concentrate attention on badly neglected internal affairs. Our internal affairs. Everyone would benefit, including the neighbors. Especially the neighbors.

Ah yes. But what about those hungry hundreds of millions, those anxious billions, yearning toward the United States from every dark and desperate corner of the world? Shall we simply ignore them? Reject them? Is such a course possible?

"Poverty," said Samuel Johnson, "is the great enemy of human happiness. It certainly destroys liberty, makes some virtues impracticable, and all virtues extremely difficult."

You can say that again, Sam.

Poverty, injustice, over breeding, overpopulation, suffering, oppression, military rule, squalor, torture, terror, massacre: these ancient evils feed and breed on one another in synergistic symbiosis. To break the cycles of pain at least two new forces are required: social equity-and birth control. Population control. Our Hispanic neighbors are groping toward this discovery. If we truly wish to help them we must stop meddling in their domestic troubles and permit them to carry out the social, political, and moral revolution which is both necessary and inevitable.

Or if we must meddle, as we have always done, let us meddle for a change in a constructive way. Stop every campesino at our southern border, give him a handgun, a good rifle, and a case of ammunition, and send him home. He will know what to do with our gifts and good wishes. The people know who their enemies are.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Mexico; US: Arizona; US: California; US: New Mexico; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: abbey; border; immigation; revolution
Fifteen years later, this reads like it was written last week.

Abbey was neither liberal or conservative. He was a provocateur -- he tested and questioned all beliefs and all logic -- and was only happy when he had a good controversy in progress. I suffered twice from his keen wit -- skewered repeatedly about ten years before he wrote this essay. And yes, we had all been doing some very serious drinking that lasted until nearly dawn.

This essay came from one of his last books, One Life at a Time, Please. Almost the last thing he wrote. Somewhere in the frontal matter of the book (preface, foreword, copyright page -- the stuff nobody reads) he got in one zinger that should have been used as his epitaph.

"If there's anyone still present whom I've failed to insult . . . I apologize."

(My thanks to Milady madfly for finding this online somewhere. Warning: this wench is psychic. I lost my copy of the book years ago and have been trying to find another for months, just for this one essay. Then she emails it to me out of the blue.)

1 posted on 05/19/2003 6:41:50 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder
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To: JackelopeBreeder; KneelBeforeZod
THE Edward Abbey? OMG....this is sooo cool!

I consider myself one of the Green Republicans here, so this is too cool.
2 posted on 05/19/2003 6:46:20 PM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: JackelopeBreeder
bump
3 posted on 05/19/2003 6:46:26 PM PDT by RippleFire
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To: Free the USA; Libertarianize the GOP; B4Ranch; madfly; FITZ; Reaganwuzthebest; hsmomx3; ...
Ping!
4 posted on 05/19/2003 6:47:50 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: JackelopeBreeder
I was sitting in a bar on 4th avenue in Tucson around about winter 1983 (remember the restaurant on the corner of 5th st.?). The well dressed patrons had just heard Abbey quoted in the press as saying that:
"Mexican illegal aliens should be stopped at the border, handed a gun, turned around, they'll know what to do when they get home".
They were all horrified, of course. Saying things like, "is Abbey a Nazi?". I laughed so hard at them, I spat up. They just stared. They thought he was some kind of fuzzy, furry Spotted-Owl hugging GreenMan. Umm, don't think so...

His book of quotations is still at my father's house in Tucson. Which is a good place for it....but the one thing that I have wondered over the last 10 years of this immivasion madness: where are all the people now who listened so fervently to Abbey and others in the 1970's? Collecting a paycheck from Club Sierra? Working deals at the Wilderness Society to get a cheap land deal through a public land trust donation? The silence from them is DEAFENING.

6 posted on 05/19/2003 7:06:19 PM PDT by Regulator
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Jackelope Breeder wouldn't happen to be Chilton Williamson Jr., would he? I was raised in Idaho and it was common knowledge that Jackelopes were most often seen in Wyoming --a spot where Mr. Williamson has been known to hang his Stetson.

I attended the U. of New Mexico a year or two after Ed Abbey had departed the campus. A poster attributed to him was still decorating a few spots around the school. It read (approximately):

"There will be no peace until the last dictator is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

Yes, he was a provacateur.
7 posted on 05/19/2003 7:13:36 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: JackelopeBreeder
I agree with you about Abbey - He defied labels, and was the iconclast's iconoclast.

My favorite Abbey quote was one on welfare; Abbey, who had actually worked at one time as a social worker, stated that we should offer all single women on welfare the option of sterilization, in exchange for a brand new Mustang convertible. He added "Not only would this cut down on welfare expenditures, but it would have the added benefit of eliminating from the gene pool anyone foolish enough to accept such a deal."
8 posted on 05/19/2003 7:19:06 PM PDT by LouD
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Edward Abbey, patron saint of the extremist radical environmentalists and author of Ecotopia, their holy scripture
9 posted on 05/19/2003 7:20:55 PM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Bernard Marx
I'm afraid not. Uncle JB spent most of his so-called adult life wearing Army green and collecting data on the bars and saloons of the Far East.

Been to Idaho a couple of times, though.
10 posted on 05/19/2003 7:21:48 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
Ernest Callenbach wrote Ecotopia.
11 posted on 05/19/2003 7:24:36 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Oh, you're right. But I know that Abbey is very highly regarded by the radical environmentalists
12 posted on 05/19/2003 7:26:14 PM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Your reference to getting drunk with Abbey caused me to think of Williamson, the paleo-con Senior Editor, Books, for "Chronicles." He also authors "The Hundredth Meridian" column which deals with the present and future of the West.

He's a great admirer of Abbey and they apparently were pals at one time. One of his columns a year or two ago was about a trip he made into the wilderness trying to find Abbey's grave on the anniversary of his passing. Williamson and his friends didn't find the gravesite but they had a rather drunken ceremony in Abbey's honor anyhow.

I agree with you that the eco-fascists who worship Abbey don't really know their man.
13 posted on 05/19/2003 7:34:26 PM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Brilliant essay. Thanks for sharing it with us. Yes, it reads like it was written last week.
14 posted on 05/19/2003 7:44:43 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: Bernard Marx
Most everyone got drunk with Abbey if the hour was late enough. I met him about a year after The Monkey Wrench Gang came out in paperback. He was still a bit unsure of what to do about the sudden notoriety, but enjoying it at the same time. ("But why don't I get the groupies like the rock stars do?")

He wrote the book as a reaction to a lot of questionable development issues here in the Southwest at the time. This place was about as corrupt as Mexico. Glen Canyon Dam just happened to be his pet peeve, and provided a good story line. He was first and last a writer.
15 posted on 05/19/2003 7:50:27 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: LouD
I agree with you about Abbey - He defied labels, and was the iconclast's iconoclast.

And these days, it's hard for an iconoclast to keep up his image.

<]B^)

16 posted on 05/19/2003 8:26:05 PM PDT by Erasmus
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To: JackelopeBreeder
I had forgotten I sent that to you. Well,that does it, you are my new Psychic Friend, lol. Can't wait for your next wish, sir!

I have a dusty old copy of MonkeyWrench Gang next to a 1915 copy of Zane Grey's "Rainbow Trail".

You, my friend, are a born story teller, with an interesting past and a good memory! Keep 'em coming.

17 posted on 05/19/2003 8:29:26 PM PDT by madfly (Feeling discouraged and burnt out. . . . .)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Edward Abbey really hits the mark with this.....

"Especially when these uninvited millions bring with them an alien mode of life which - let us be honest about this - is not appealing to the majority of Americans. Why not? Because we prefer democratic government, for one thing; because we still hope for an open, spacious, uncrowded, and beautiful-yes, beautiful!-society, for another. The alternative, in the squalor, cruelty, and corruption of Latin America, is plain for all to see."

15 years later, the final sentence of this passage appears to be the destiny for America.

18 posted on 05/19/2003 8:57:06 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: JackelopeBreeder
...culturallymorally-generically impoverished people.

I agree with much of this but the above line in idiotic and racist.

19 posted on 05/19/2003 8:58:57 PM PDT by PRND21
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Yes, I know, if the American Indians had enforced such a policy none of us pale-faced honkies would be here. But the Indians were foolish, and divided, and failed to keep our WASP ancestors out. They've regretted it ever since.

At this point in American History I'd like to know how we are any different as a people than the American Indians were when it comes to being "Foolish" and "Divided". What's that they say about divide and conquer?

20 posted on 05/19/2003 9:04:58 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: JackelopeBreeder
In which case it might be wise for us as American citizens to consider calling a halt to the mass influx of even more millions of hungry, ignorant, unskilled, and culturallymorally-generically impoverished people.

Wouldn't matter if they were fat, educated, skilled, and culturallymorally-generically advanced; we are out of room.

At least until we have brought our own affairs into order.

No, not until, but never. We are full-up.

because we still hope for an open, spacious, uncrowded, and beautiful-yes, beautiful!-society

Well, you're hoping for something already lost to us.

21 posted on 05/19/2003 9:06:04 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Here's the link for the Abbey piece , at Sonoran News
22 posted on 05/19/2003 9:08:00 PM PDT by madfly (Feeling discouraged and burnt out. . . . .)
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To: WRhine
Especially when these uninvited millions bring with them an alien mode of life

It doesn't matter.

As crowding from populaton growth (which is primarily from immigration, legal and otherwise) and rationing continue, our way of life will change--is changing--like it or not.

23 posted on 05/19/2003 9:11:33 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: JackelopeBreeder
"Therefore-let us close our national borders to any further mass immigration, legal or illegal, from any source, as does every other nation on earth. The means are available, it's a simple technical-military problem. Even our Pentagon should be able to handle it. We've got an army somewhere on this planet, let's bring our soldiers home and station them where they can be of some actual and immediate benefit to the taxpayers who support them. That done, we can begin to concentrate attention on badly neglected internal affairs. Our internal affairs. Everyone would benefit, including the neighbors. Especially the neighbors."

This guy was truly ahead of his time. Still, 15 years later the immigration madness continues and anything resembling the above remains a far off dream.

24 posted on 05/19/2003 9:14:22 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Outstanding post! I consider myself a crunchy conservative, or, as Rod Dreher, formerly from NR, has said, a "Burkenstocked Burkean" - one who favors BOTH small government AND small capitalism.

Edward Abbey was certainly on the mark regarding immigration.
25 posted on 05/19/2003 9:17:31 PM PDT by usmc_chris (extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice...)
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To: Age of Reason
As crowding from populaton growth (which is primarily from immigration, legal and otherwise) and rationing continue, our way of life will change--is changing--like it or not.

Can't argue with you there.

26 posted on 05/19/2003 9:21:44 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: JackelopeBreeder
The United States has been fully settled, and more than full, for at least a century.

It's was full for longer than that--North America was full long before Columbus discovered America.

27 posted on 05/19/2003 9:22:39 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: WRhine
Can't argue with you there.

I haven't hunted with my brother in New York State for many years now.

I was horrified to learn from my brother how everytime he visits his hunting lodge, he notices more and more new houses being built on the way to the lodge.

Pretty soon, he says, they'll be making that a shotgun county. (Meaning, hunting with rifles will no longer be allowed.)

And another freedom lost.

But I'll take it further: If that growth continues--and continue it will unless immigration of all kinds is halted--they'll eventually be no hunting at all.

And a few years after that, the gun laws will be as restrictive as those in densely populated New York City.

The right to bear arms and other BASIC freedoms are slowly being eroded by crowding from population growth from immigration.

28 posted on 05/19/2003 9:31:46 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: Age of Reason
I was horrified to learn from my brother how everytime he visits his hunting lodge, he notices more and more new houses being built on the way to the lodge.

You too Uh? I spend a lot of my free time in Upper Wisconsin. When I was a kid the WI North Woods was truly a wilderness to behold. Today, it is carved up with homes and developments through and through, especially around the lakes. Back home in the outlying areas NW of Chicago where I grew up and went hunting as a kid there are ten of thousands of new homes and town houses that now occupy the fields, woods and farmland I used to roam and thousands more are being built every year.

It is Sad what is happening to America's Open Spaces. I'll never understand the wacky notion that economic growth and prosperity rests with an ever-greater number of warm bodies in the country. Do we want to be like China or India? It's like the Open Border Cabal believe that capitalism can only work if there is a population explosion. Tell that to Switzerland! We as a nation won't know what we have lost until we have totally lost it.

29 posted on 05/19/2003 10:01:27 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: WRhine
You too Uh? I spend a lot of my free time in Upper Wisconsin. When I was a kid the WI North Woods was truly a wilderness to behold. Today, it is carved up with homes and developments through and through, especially around the lakes. Back home in the outlying areas NW of Chicago where I grew up and went hunting as a kid there are ten of thousands of new homes and town houses that now occupy the fields, woods and farmland I used to roam and thousands more are being built every year.

So many people don't understand how quickly population growth can change their way of life.

And fewer are the people who understand how quickly population growth liberalizes thinking: In a world of shortages, people must share and ration to get along, and they must turn to government to referee the countless conflicts that come with crowding.

Conflicts like who can own a firearm or who can smoke a cigarette where.

It is Sad what is happening to America's Open Spaces. I'll never understand the wacky notion that economic growth and prosperity rests with an ever-greater number of warm bodies in the country. Do we want to be like China or India? It's like the Open Border Cabal believe that capitalism can only work if there is a population explosion. Tell that to Switzerland! We as a nation won't know what we have lost until we have totally lost it.

The greatest luxury is the enjoyment of freedom--not the enjoyment of consumer products produced by a society teeming with smokestacks where hordes of people live in human anthills.

Like New Jersey, whose population density surpasses that of India or Japan; good old liberal New Jersey.

Nothing--not Bach, not Rembrandt--no art, architecture, or music can substitute for the sights and sounds and smells and touch and taste of nature.

30 posted on 05/19/2003 10:21:05 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: JackelopeBreeder
I love Edward Abbey. Got turned onto him in '91 by a couple of friends in Tuscon.

I love his quote, in I think, "A Voice Crying in the Wilderness"....

(I'll paraphrase it if I don't have it right)

"If more people carried guns, there would be a lot better manners around here..."

31 posted on 05/19/2003 10:38:42 PM PDT by kstewskis (Where's Seldom Seen?)
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To: Age of Reason
And fewer are the people who understand how quickly population growth liberalizes thinking: In a world of shortages, people must share and ration to get along, and they must turn to government to referee the countless conflicts that come with crowding.

This is one of the reasons why I see conservatism in America dying. As the population growth in America rises exponentially and well past our ability to manage in an orderly fashion more government will be looked upon by the masses to solve the problems you mention that come with overpopulation. In 1965 America had roughly half of today's population and it's interesting to note that Both Political Parties were MUCH MORE Conservative than they are today. At some point the house of cards we have built for ourselves will come tumbling down.

32 posted on 05/19/2003 11:01:36 PM PDT by WRhine
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To: PRND21
In some respects, yes, but it's classic Abbey in-your-face confrontation. He would have stared down Cesar Chavez and called him a greasy wetback taco-bender or publicly called Jesse Jackson a white wench chasing nigger. Then he would have waited for a logical rebuttal. No personal offense meant on his part, but no remorse either. You were either in the game to defend your arguments, or you were just a useless spectator.

I sorta think of him as Socrates with hemmorhoids and a bad attitude. He certainly tore me a couple of new a$$holes.
33 posted on 05/19/2003 11:30:09 PM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Let me try to capture a few errant memories while they are semi-fresh. I believe this took place in early 1977.

Maybe five or six of us are sitting at a table with Ed in a Mexican restaurant/bar in Globe, Arizona. The beer has been flowing quite freely for hours. It is maybe 3:00 am and Ed is still conducting the grand inquisition. The latest additions to the party are two Maricopa County sheriff's deputies who came in to end the party at 1:30.

Ed has just exposed a young JackelopeBreeder as an intellectual light-weight and is waiting for a reply. Half of an expensive cigar is poking out of the left side of his face. He has his arms crossed over his chest with a beer mug in his right hand and a cheap felt hat pushed back to expose most of his bald spot. The Cheshire Cat never had a grin that big.
34 posted on 05/20/2003 12:06:20 AM PDT by JackelopeBreeder ("Push to test." < Click! > "Release to detonate." Oops...)
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To: PRND21
>...culturallymorally-generically impoverished people.

agree with much of this but the above line in idiotic and racist.

Racist? Against which race, exactly?

35 posted on 05/20/2003 7:12:48 AM PDT by Spiff
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To: Age of Reason
No, not until, but never. We are full-up.

No, we're not. Lots and lots of empty square miles to fill and exploit. Perhaps if the government stopped taking land out of circulation, we'd have more room. What have we got now? Cities both restricting land use to maximize "open space" and complaining that they need to control rent because there isn't enough housing.

We're not full up. But I'm certainly fed up with government restrictions and giveaways. The John Smith Rule should be the guide on limiting factor to immigration: "if you don't work, you don't eat". No freebies. No handouts. No coddling. No bilingualism. If they want to be part of America, they need to be willing to play the game our way, and not expect us to help them.

36 posted on 05/20/2003 12:36:13 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: JackelopeBreeder
I'm astonished that I could agree with Edward Abbey about anything.

Make no mistake, though: Edward Abbey was a extremist liberal.

Abbey was the original environmentalist wack-job. He was also an alcoholic, a mysogynist (& I don't throw that term around lightly) and was probably manic/depressive.

.......which means he was a PERFECT DEMOCRAT--LOL!

37 posted on 05/20/2003 12:39:08 PM PDT by RooRoobird14
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
We have too many people.

In fact, there's been too many people here even before Columbus showed up, even before the Vikings showed up.

If there weren't too many people even then, why was it Eskimos had to live in igloos wiping their butts with icicles?
38 posted on 05/20/2003 2:27:47 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: JackelopeBreeder
The latest additions to the (Globe) party are two Maricopa County sheriff's deputies who came in to end the party at 1:30.

Either you or they are out of place. Globe is in Pinal County. ;>)

A good read, as is Desert Solitaire. I remember reading that by the UofA pool an hour or so every afternoon one summer. I had just come back from Viet Nam and the war protests had reached the campus. I went to class in the a.m. and had the p.m. to relax and delve into a quieter place. It engendered a love of the desert and the Colorado Plateau that remains with me to this day. In the early 70's I joined with others in hiking many of the slickrock areas in Northern Arizona and Southern Utah. My one regret was that I never got to hike the Glen Canyon before it was buried forever by Lake Powell. It was a rape of the land, and well worth preservation. These days, the Sierra Club is more interested in political agendas than anything. However, I would have joined them in that fight if I had known.

39 posted on 05/21/2003 2:50:34 PM PDT by CedarDave (The number of Saddam (non)sightings is rapidly approaching those of Elvis!)
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To: JackelopeBreeder
Then he would have waited for a logical rebuttal

Fair enough.

40 posted on 05/21/2003 10:29:00 PM PDT by PRND21
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To: Spiff
Against which race, exactly?

Take your pick.

41 posted on 05/21/2003 10:29:56 PM PDT by PRND21
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To: PRND21
>Against which race, exactly?

Take your pick.

No. You made the accusation of racism. Which race is Edward Abbey being racist against?

42 posted on 05/21/2003 10:34:38 PM PDT by Spiff
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To: Spiff
All but his, it seems.
Care to rank some races based on culture and morality?
43 posted on 05/21/2003 10:38:57 PM PDT by PRND21
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To: PRND21
All but his, it seems. Care to rank some races based on culture and morality?

He mentioned culture and morality. You mentioned race, not him. So, if Abbey denigrated the culture and morality of the only the French, would that merit an accusation of racism?

44 posted on 05/21/2003 11:40:00 PM PDT by Spiff
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To: Spiff
Again...Care to rank some races based on culture and morality?
45 posted on 05/21/2003 11:51:31 PM PDT by PRND21
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To: PRND21
Again...Care to rank some races based on culture and morality?

Cut the crap - you brought up race. You interjected, and continue to interject, the false notion that culture and morality are tied to race somehow. That one's skin melanin content somehow determines which culture to which one will subscribe or how moral one will be. Neither I nor Abbey espoused any such nonsense.

I asked first - against which specific race(s) was/were Abbey's comments racist?

46 posted on 05/22/2003 12:06:36 AM PDT by Spiff
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To: Spiff
You can't answer my question because you know it would be racist.

Neither I nor Abbey espoused any such nonsense.

False.

47 posted on 05/22/2003 9:02:06 PM PDT by PRND21
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To: PRND21
No, true. Spiff's entirely correct. Abbey mentioned nothing about race.

(He didn't say genetically impoverished, if that was the source of your confusion. He said generically impoverished. World of difference)

48 posted on 05/23/2003 9:48:21 AM PDT by inquest
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To: inquest
Abbey mentioned nothing about race.

I didn't say he did. And yes, I can read.

49 posted on 05/23/2003 10:03:35 PM PDT by PRND21
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