Value of space science questioned

Associated Press ^ | Tuesday, May 27, 2003

[presidio9]

Some experts say microgravity research conducted by astronauts in space doesn't appear to produce much value for scientists.

Academics and scientists on both sides of the debate over scientific value of human spaceflight have disagreed for decades.

Differing opinions have erupted in the aftermath of space shuttle Columbia's disintegration over Texas on February 1, leaving seven astronauts dead.

[Frank_Discussion]

Over a TWENTY-PLUS Year Life Span!!! Not only is the 100 Billion figure inflated, it's misleading! An average of $5 billion a year to maintain a foothold in space is pretty frickin' cheap, considering it is a government program.

Folks, don't get wrong here: Private enterprise will and MUST bust down the gates to the settlement and use of space. However, the ISS-bashing is about as inane as it gets.

NASA has been forced to run on vapors for a decade - it still built a space station. The program has had to suffer the deadweight of international cooperation and the batterings from Dan Goldin who regarded it his own person political football.

[RightWhale]

It is true, though. Science is not just the space-related activities. The science that is creating our future is staring us in the eye and offering all kinds of psychotropic medications, genetic surgery, GM food, organ replacements, superior babies [eugenics, whatever they call it these days,] scientific systems of government and management, and entertainment of any kind desired. It's here, and more is coming. They've got us 7 ways from Sunday. Most of us.

[RightWhale]

specifically 1967

One of the changes I would make. For starters. Dump the 1967 Treaty.

[Frank_Discussion]

"If the government chunked out cars by the million at a loss, Henry Ford couldn't compete."

Now, that's an analogy I can understand and agree with. Ask Andrew Beal: launch subsidies killed his launcher business, despite re-creating an engine that matched the old Saturn V beasts in performance. And his rockets would have been very cheap.

"Space tourism is a possibility, but such a business would be tiny when fully developed compared to most economic sectors. Lots of glamour, though."

And, hence my advocacy of private lunar businesses. But when the lunar tourism and settlement hurdle is cleared, Mars will fall quickly, IMHO.

"The monopoly won't be broken unless gov't opens the door. You may choose your flavor, but the meal is the controlled economy. I wish it were otherwise."

Humanity will not be contained, it never has been, not for long, anyway. Private interests will break down the door held so firmly by the governments.

[Frank_Discussion]

Easy. Take ownership of a piece of extraterrestrial property, then dare a nation to evict you. The treaty would die from lack of political oxygen.

[Jeff Gordon]

Please- China can barely tie her shoes.

Meet me here at this time next year.

[Paul Ross]

ping

[RightWhale]

Take ownership of a piece of extraterrestrial property, then dare a nation to evict you.

If you are in business as the world economy stands today and will be for the next period of time, you might indeed fly out and stand on the moon or on Mars, or even on an asteroid and the gov't or gov'ts wouldn't bother you OUT THERE. They have the low ground and you will dry up and blow away without trade. They won't have to lift a collective finger to watch the 'Survivor - None' show. Call it the Cuba technique.

[RightWhale]

China can barely tie her shoes.

Yes, China wants to play and is doing the things necessary to get into the game. Could happen.

[LiteKeeper]

I am a retired Army officer (artillery, MI, and chaplain). I have the privilege of teaching several classes in Colorado Springs to high school, college, and adults on comparative worldviews (biblical vs secular). As I read the various threads, some impress me as good for illustrating different worldviews. So, I mark "incidents" as "SPOTREPS" (spot report) and "descriptions of the current world scene" as "SITREPs" (situation reports). When I get home, I download these SPOTREPs and SITREPs to a database for future use.

Does that help?

[Moonman62]

The real experiments have not started flying.

How do we tell the real experiments from the not real experiments -- by how many tax dollars they chew up?

[jimt]

Of course the main thing of value is studying new and better ways to deliver welfare in its various forms.

I'll agree to private funding of space science if the communists will agree to private funding of all the giveaway welfare programs. Deal?

[Frank_Discussion]

"...watch the 'Survivor - None' show."

LOL!! Pretty Good! And you're right, at the moment, a person doing what I describe would just dry up, I suppose. But the economy won't always be this way, and when launch costs drive down, resupply will be easier.

If lunar or any other space tourism takes off in a big way, the customers will drive those costs down. At that point, unless the governments start shooting down private craft, or impounding earthly launch sites, then the viable land grabs will begin.

Will this all fall into place next week? Of course not. But there are some folks (hopfully not you) who think that only the magical NASA and its ilk can go into space, ever. It is simply not true.

[RightWhale]

SPOTREPs and SITREPs

Sounds scientific. Analysis of data, critique of existing theories, synthesis of new model. There is a shortage of practitioners of this science at all levels from lab tech to cosmologist. Do you see anything falling out of the data that we might find interesting?

[gcruse]

Thanks. I can't have been the only one wondering.

[Frank_Discussion]

Oh, one more thing on this subtopic: Success of the space squatters notwithstanding, it would still kill the treaty, since it would establish no desire and/or ability of the signatories to enforce it.

[RightWhale]

How do we tell the real experiments from the not real experiments

It's a matter of scale. So far the experiments flown have been the small drawer- or cabinet-sized modules. They draw little power and measure one or two things in a small volume. Real experiments would come later when entire ISS lab modules are attached to the station. Minor league versus Major League. Correct, real experiments = serious dollars. To those who are operating the small experiments: stick with it, you may get to the Big Show eventually.

[Frank_Discussion]

"To those who are operating the small experiments: stick with it, you may get to the Big Show eventually."

Exactly. The theory of relativity started when a young Austrian patent clerk thought about a couple trains moving at different speeds.

[MarketR]

They won't have to lift a collective finger to watch the 'Survivor - None' show. Call it the Cuba technique.

You are right on the mark with this....but, because of this, your previous comment to "junk" this treaty is mute. The same would happen.

It's a jealous world out there and they are not going to stand by while the US takes advantage of our lead in space exploration.

[RightWhale]

it would still kill the treaty, since it would establish no desire and/or ability of the signatories to enforce it.

The 1967 Treaty was born of the nukes in orbit fears back in the late 50s. The weaponization of outer space. The collectivists at the UN and in seems like most of the 2nd and 3rd, and probably 1st world, too, have this idea of our societal evolution, like Pres Clinton, that does not encourage individual initiative to the extent of any one company or capitalist getting a monopoly in space. The entire world is painfully aware that America is so far ahead of everyone else in continental shelf development technology [outer space for most countries] that America could run away with everything, pick all the plums. So they extrapolated to actual outer space and there is the Treaty. America signed it mostly to stop the Russians from orbiting nukes. But the Treaty has to go, now, so we can bust out into outer space. Others are gearing up to develop celestial resources, treaty or no treaty. Others being China, ESA, NASDA, Russia [maybe, but they have a lot of undeveloped resources already], and last and still not least, NASA. Toss in some others who will follow along as soon as possible such as Brazil and India, and you will see that the private entrepreneur will easily get overwhelmed and become insignificant and may be safely ignored ast the Hitchhiker's Guide says.