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Europe Returning to Pagan Roots
NewsMax ^ | May 30, 2003 | Fr. Mike Reilly

Posted on 05/30/2003 9:55:54 PM PDT by Hugenot

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1 posted on 05/30/2003 9:55:54 PM PDT by Hugenot
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To: Hugenot
The fact is that it was Christian culture which civilized and united tribal barbarians into what was left of the declining Roman Empire, which would eventually become modern Europe. That is why every modern tyrant has seen the need to attack and suppress Christianity

And now many European countries are voluntarily reliquishing their heritage and future to the tyrant Islam.

2 posted on 05/30/2003 10:02:44 PM PDT by petuniasevan (Some folks are wise; some are otherwise)
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To: Hugenot
Europe has always had an exceedingly tumultuous experience with the imposition of Eastern dogmatic religions (Judeo-Christian-Islamic) atop its Western polyvalent spiritualism (secularist paganism). The authoritarian, ecumenical impulses of the former have been breaking down inexorably for at least four centuries now into a fractured, decentralized patchwork.
3 posted on 05/30/2003 10:08:03 PM PDT by AntiGuv ()
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To: petuniasevan
Why am I not surprised?
4 posted on 05/30/2003 10:27:40 PM PDT by MeekMom ((HUGE Ann Coulter Fan!!!) (Life-long Python Addict))
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To: AntiGuv
"The authoritarian, ecumenical impulses of the former have been breaking down inexorably for at least four centuries now into a fractured, decentralized patchwork."

Exactly, beginning with the fleeing of people from Europe for the new world (America). And why were these people fleeing Europe, to escape the oppressive rule of church and state. So today, we have some people who want to re-create that European model here.

Maybe it is we who still have something to learn and not the EU.

5 posted on 05/30/2003 10:29:15 PM PDT by Kerberos (Ah yes the liberal democrats, united as ever in opportunism and error. Tony Blair 3/18/03)
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To: Hugenot
Europe is toast.

Prepare for war.

China is on the entre menu and the Europeans are ala cart.
6 posted on 05/30/2003 10:31:46 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Defund NPR, PBS and the LSC.)
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To: Hugenot
I don't really see the problem- Christianity is just a neutered, tired religion.

Once, it was like Islam is now, full of fire and passion and global conquest, but now is nothing more than memories.

I don't really mind, either. The glory of European civilization came from the pagan parts- Rome and Greece, and their rebirth and rejection of Christianity in the Renaissance and Enlightenment.
7 posted on 05/30/2003 10:32:44 PM PDT by TheAngryClam (This space for rent.)
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To: Hugenot
SITREP
8 posted on 05/30/2003 10:41:18 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Hugenot
"Sadly, the leaders of Europe lack that insight."

Even more sadly for us, the governmental and intelligentsia leaders in the U.S. lack that knowledge also.

9 posted on 05/30/2003 10:45:33 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: TheAngryClam
And the notion that all virtues came exclusively from Christianity is preposterous. As if the pagans threw out the baby with the bath water.
10 posted on 05/30/2003 10:48:28 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: TheAngryClam
Pre-Christian Europe was a patchwork of barbarian tribes, with perhaps the exception of Greece, and later on Rome. All subsequent development came from the integration of its Christian roots with its ideals, albeit in an undesirable way. For instance, pagans had no compassion whatsoever for weaklings and children who were born with any physical defects were killed at birth. War and oppression were not merely a means to an end, but were seen as the most glorious of human endevours.
Greece and Rome were not half as glorious as modern day armchair historians make them out to be.
11 posted on 05/30/2003 10:51:13 PM PDT by Dat
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To: Hugenot
I thought Germany already tried the return-to-paganism thing in the 1930s and '40s.
12 posted on 05/30/2003 10:55:53 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: TheAngryClam
"I don't really see the problem- Christianity is just a neutered, tired religion."

More's the tragedy. The only Christianity you see may be as you describe, I can't deny that, but Christianity isn't really a "religion" at all in the true definition of the word. It has only become (falsely) represented as such in this last century.

13 posted on 05/30/2003 10:59:01 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: ffusco
The pagans usually burned the babies.
14 posted on 05/30/2003 11:03:44 PM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
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To: Pelham
I thought Germany already tried the return-to-paganism thing in the 1930s and '40s.

Well, many did, but when I was there, (80 to 84) I thought, for the most part, they were still pretty much a bunch of pagans, but that is just my opinion.

15 posted on 05/30/2003 11:12:43 PM PDT by Mark17
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To: Dat
"pagans had no compassion whatsoever for weaklings and children who were born with any physical defects were killed at birth."

It was legal for a Father to kill a only a horribly deformed child in the witness of 5 neighbors. Infant mortality rates wre high and medicine was crude. A mercy killing was often the best solution.

War and oppression were not merely a means to an end, but were seen as the most glorious of human endevours.
The Romans didn' see it that way:
 
Vergil's Aeneid
"Roman, remember by your strength to rule
Earth's peoples - for your arts are to be these:
to pacify, to impose the rule of law,
to spare the conquered, battle down the proud."

They thought it was their mission to civilize the world-and they did, just as we did with Manifest Destiny and our latest foray into Iraq.

Greece and Rome were not half as glorious as modern day armchair historians make them out to be.
The water in some aquaeducts still flows as well as echoes of Cicero and Plato in our laws and customs.
16 posted on 05/30/2003 11:13:52 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: philetus
Riiight.
17 posted on 05/30/2003 11:14:57 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: nutmeg
read later bump
18 posted on 05/30/2003 11:35:10 PM PDT by nutmeg (USA: Land of the Free - Thanks to the Brave)
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To: Dat
I'm a bit more than an armchair historian.

And "with the exception of Rome" at it's height was essentially all of Europe except for Germany and the lands more east. It also included all of northern Africa and the Levant.

Christianity was a disaster for Europe. It was only through turning to the traditions of pagan Rome, such as the Roman Catholic Church and most of the early kingdoms (for example, the Goths that ended the Western Roman Empire were more "Roman" in their habits than the Eastern Empire soldiers that came to retake Italy), that civilization survived.
19 posted on 05/30/2003 11:43:19 PM PDT by TheAngryClam (This space for rent.)
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To: philetus
Actually, they usually stuck them out on the hillside/local trashheap to die or passed them on to another family (adoption was far, far more prevalent in ancient Rome than today).

That hillside was where the poor went to pick up new slaves.

Actual death of children wasn't as common in ancient pagan Europe as you make it out.
20 posted on 05/30/2003 11:45:12 PM PDT by TheAngryClam (This space for rent.)
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To: Mark17
It is but a short step from the worship of Hegel to the worship of the Erdgeist, albeit a backward one.
21 posted on 05/30/2003 11:46:08 PM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: ffusco
Not to mention the laws of Europe (the civil code is a direct descendant from Roman Law) and well, in a good part, those of America.
22 posted on 05/30/2003 11:48:21 PM PDT by TheAngryClam (This space for rent.)
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To: TheAngryClam
Even such quaint traditions as the wedding ring and carrying a bride over the threshold are Roman customs.


ROMA INVICTA!
23 posted on 05/30/2003 11:51:03 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: TheAngryClam
"Christianity was a disaster for Europe."

I would really like to know your basis for saying that. Could you be a bit more specific?

24 posted on 05/30/2003 11:54:58 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: TheAngryClam
"The Tophet, the sacred precinct in Carthage. Here, from the eighth century B.C. until the second century B.C., mothers and fathers of Carthage buried the bones of their children sacrificed to the god Ba'al Hammon and to the goddess Tanit. By the fourth century B.C. the Tophet may have been as large as 64,800 square feet (6,000 square meters), with nine levels of burials. Archaeologists today group these levels into three periods designated Tanit l, ll, and lll."

Biblical Archaeology Review.
January/February 1984, Vol. X,#1.P-32
Biblical Archaeology Society-Washington , D.C.

"Firstborn sons and daughters were offered by Carthaginian parents as living sacrifices in times of great calamities-war, famine, drought and plague. On a moonlight night, ancient writers say, a priest placed a child mercifully killed moments earlier, on the outstretched arms of a statue of Baal. As the infant's body rolled into a flaming pit-entering the company of the gods- flutes,tambourines, and lyres drowned out the parents' cries. Later the ashes and bones were collected in a small urn and placed with thousands of others in the sacrificial precinct, or tophet, of the goddess Tanit at Carthage... Archaeologists have found evidence of human sacrifice also in Sardina and Sicily."

National Geographic Magazine
August 1974. P-166.

"Out of reverence for Kronos ( Baal), the Phoenicians, and especially the Carthaginians, whenever they seek to obtain some great favor, vow one of their children, burning it as a sacrifice to the deity, if they are especially eager to gain success...When the flames fall on the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing, until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier."

Source: Dr. John Currid, Archaeologist
Associate Professor of Old Testament.
Reformed Theological Seminary
5422 Clinton Ave.,
Jackson, Ms. 39056

NOTE: THIS RITUAL BURNING OF CHILDREN WAS CALLED "THE ACT OF LAUGHING."



25 posted on 05/31/2003 12:01:50 AM PDT by philetus (Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
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To: philetus
Rome destroyed Carthage, after it lost 2 wars and broke a treaty. Subsequently cannibalism and human sacrifice were outlawed. This occured in Roman Britian as Druidic sacrifice was discouraged-But as a concession Condemmed criminals were made available to them.


Table IX: Public Law of Rome
6. Putting to death of any man, whosoever he might be, unconvicted is forbidden.

26 posted on 05/31/2003 12:14:03 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: TheAngryClam
Christianity was a disaster for Europe.

That is a highly simplistic statement. Modern custom and culture is dictated to a far greater extent from the Judeo-Christian tradition than the Roman model, which is not to belittle the influence of Rome (although Rome itself was primarily responsible for the spread of Christianity both directly and indirectly), but to highlight the importance of the other traditions.

27 posted on 05/31/2003 12:17:16 AM PDT by Dat
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To: nightdriver
Many pagan rituals were acts of patriotism in Rome- like our Pledge of Allegience, and refering to the signers as The Founding Fathers.

As Christianity was adopted by many Romans , and later made the state religeon AD300? its followers became increasingly unpatriotic and docile. Not only was the "Eternal Flame" of Rome allowed to be extiguished (legend says it burned continuosly for centuries) but the very infrastructure of civilization was allowed to deteriorate.

Of course there were numerous factors that led to Romes fall including: Immigration, a lazy middle class, a foreign army, high taxes, massive public asistance, and the tyranny of corrupt military leaders.
28 posted on 05/31/2003 12:26:03 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: Dat
I enjoyed the subtext of Ben Hur- that God worked through the Roman Empire and through the actions of good men. Rome also allowed Jesus to fulfill his destiny by his matrydom.
29 posted on 05/31/2003 12:30:39 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: petuniasevan
And now many European countries are voluntarily reliquishing their heritage and future to the tyrant Islam.

Someone who knew nothing about Europe, say, an alien from another planet or a typical American public school student, would believe that Wiccan and Islam are the main--indeed only--religions that were ever practiced in Europe.

30 posted on 05/31/2003 12:32:10 AM PDT by Wilhelm Tell (Lurking since 1997!)
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To: Hugenot
"Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, which, nourished first by the civilizations of Greece and Rome, characterized by spiritual impulse always present in its heritage and later by the philosophical currents of the Enlightenment, has embedded within the life of society its perception of the central role of the human person and his inviolable and inalienable rights, and of respect for law. ..."

Language is so revealing, isn't it? Compare the above monstrosity (from the preamble to the new Euro constitution) to the clear, straightforward phrasing of the United States' Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

31 posted on 05/31/2003 12:38:59 AM PDT by tictoc (On FreeRepublic, discussion is a contact sport.)
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To: ffusco
If I remember correctly, as areas became Romanized the number of soldiers recruited from those areas declined remarkably. I believe that by the time of the empire most soldiers were from the provinces and then later on from areas outside the empire. I don't know whether patriotism was a factor in most of Rome in the time just before the rise of Christianty as most of the population were not really citizens in the modern sense of the word.

I think most of the institutions and attitudes we (as conservatives) admire in the Romans were pretty much tied to the Republican era, and as far as I know any Republican sentiment died out by the time of Tiberius (although I don't know, do you know when Romans finally gave up on the idea of the Republic, as it was in the time of the consuls?)
32 posted on 05/31/2003 12:45:52 AM PDT by Dat
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To: ffusco
Of course there were numerous factors that led to Romes fall including: Immigration, a lazy middle class, a foreign army, high taxes, massive public asistance, and the tyranny of corrupt military leaders.

With the exception of the two allusions to the military, all the factors you list are present in our society today (of course, with generals around like Wesley Clark, you may be able to include that one too).

As for Christianity, I think the negative impact on European culture was due more to the governing buracracy that the Catholic Chruch built up around Chistianity than Christianity itself; things like promoting ignorance and illiteracy through the Latin translation of the Bible, and then only allowing the clergy to learn Latin.

33 posted on 05/31/2003 1:00:35 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: Dat
As Roman provinces became civilized the people became lazy prefering a bourgeois lifestyle to that of a farmer/soldier which was a 26 year career. Rome prefered to "nation build" and when a people were Romanized they were expected to guard their own land with native troops. Rome couln't have a standing army throughout its empire so instead built raods in order to send rapid response to any border conflict.
This was evident in Roman Britain where native Britons defended their northern outpost for 200? years after the Romans left. Britain continually asked Rome for help, but Rome was busy fighting the Goths who were flowing into the Empire from Romania through Germany.
I think you are correct about conservative admiration for republican Rome, although the Golden age was under the Ceasers and a period of so-called good Emperors. Many orators were critical , particularly Cicero, and many Romans were aware their civilization was in decline- as today we complain about illegal immigration and corruption. Even under the Empire many republican traditions continued at the local levels of government.
34 posted on 05/31/2003 1:19:23 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: Hugenot
A return to the actual pagan pantheon of Europe would bode ill for Islam. What jihadist would venture his paradise against a Nordic warrior bent on Valhalla? Or face the devotees of Apollo Far Striker again in the narrow passes of Greece? As if that were any better meeting Britons smeared with woad longing for the Far Isles.

No, the paganism that modern Europeans long for goes no further than healing crystals and aromatherapy. Europe's forgetfullness of its Christian past is misnamed. The true word is senescence.
35 posted on 05/31/2003 1:19:40 AM PDT by wretchard
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To: GaConfed
I couldn't agree more.
36 posted on 05/31/2003 1:21:04 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: GaConfed
"With the exception of the two allusions to the military, all the factors you list are present in our society today"
Ominous isn't it?

I think we are in our Golden Age NOW. At the equivalent time In Rome, the satirist Juvenal compains of the corruption in Rome, the abundance of lawyers, the endless fads, the disrespect for authority and traditions, lewdness, the high rents, the noise of traffic, inflation, lying politicians, dirty foreigners..........
37 posted on 05/31/2003 1:34:24 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
Many orators were critical , particularly Cicero, and many Romans were aware their civilization was in decline- as today we complain about illegal immigration and corruption. Even under the Empire many republican traditions continued at the local levels of government.

I think the same could be said where it concerns Plato's critical anaylisis of Athenian Democracy. He saw the handwriting on the wall and told the truth about it, and the rusult was his demise..........and the demise of Athenian influence. Of course, Alexander the Great's decadent multiculturalism brought down Athens and everyone else. Just take a look at art during the Hellenistic period (the agransdisment of the common), and that of the height of Greek civilization (the worship of the ideal).

38 posted on 05/31/2003 1:36:40 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: tictoc
Its absolutely Victorian in its convolution as contrasted to our elegant "plains-spoken" preamble.
39 posted on 05/31/2003 1:38:05 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: GaConfed
I meant Socrates, not Plato. Scuse me!!
40 posted on 05/31/2003 1:42:11 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: tictoc
It's a common ruse for would be tyrants to head for the cover of the pedantic tall weeds when they are in danger of being exposed for what they are.
41 posted on 05/31/2003 1:46:23 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: ffusco
BTT
42 posted on 05/31/2003 1:48:37 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: GaConfed
I gotta brush up on the classics!

Have you seen Titus? Thee doth recommend it though it be not ( hehe) historically accurate. I love Taymor's ability to contemporize the story .
43 posted on 05/31/2003 1:49:50 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: nopardons
I forgot to add Plague to Juvenal's rant list.
44 posted on 05/31/2003 1:54:35 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
And I have to read further about Juvenal. We brushed over him in a class I had a while back, but in a very superficial manner. Have just started reading Tacitus for the first time since being a student at St. John's College. Had forgotten what a good story teller he was and able to stick to the truth as he knew it at the same time.

Haven't seen Titus yet, but will very soon. Did you see Gods and Generals? If so, what did you think?

45 posted on 05/31/2003 2:02:07 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: ffusco
Yes, you did. LOL

You've also managed to leave out Augustus' laws on marriage and office holding.

Ovid's chatty little tome " THE ART OF LOVE "...a cross between Playboy's advice columns ( though his was MUCH less purile and obscene ! )and today's self-help books, is well written, funny, full of some much needed grooming tips for men (wash and brush your teeth before a date, have clean fingernails, etc. ), and still usefull today.

46 posted on 05/31/2003 2:03:39 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: GaConfed
Fratre,
It's on my list. I'll ping ya.
47 posted on 05/31/2003 2:10:12 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: philetus
Carthage was a Phoenician (Middle Eastern) city in North Africa.

Stick to the European pagans.
48 posted on 05/31/2003 2:28:57 AM PDT by TheAngryClam (This space for rent.)
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To: Dat
It fell off as areas became more urbane and sophisticated.

Take a look at the coasts of the U.S. and the leftist control of most of our cities and you'll see a similar thing.

There is nothing new under the sun.
49 posted on 05/31/2003 2:31:58 AM PDT by TheAngryClam (This space for rent.)
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To: TheAngryClam
I don't really see the problem- Christianity is just a neutered, tired religion.

For a "neutered, tired religion", it sure seems to be breeding prolifically. It is the fastest growing religion on earth currently and is taking China and Russia by storm.

Once, it was like Islam is now, full of fire and passion and global conquest, but now is nothing more than memories.

You mistake Government with Religion. The conquest of Christianity you refer to was the use of the religion as a shield for mans conquest. When the Bible was printed for all to read, that put a stop to it.

I don't really mind, either. The glory of European civilization came from the pagan parts- Rome and Greece, and their rebirth and rejection of Christianity in the Renaissance and Enlightenment .

Perhaps Christianity has been neutered in your heart, but as Aristotle said, "The function of the brain is to lubricate the nose." Romanticizing the past has it’s place, but reality is a concept too. I kinda think America and Modern Europe, built on the foundation of Christianity has surpassed the toga party and the mad max entertainment business of the ancient world.

What is actually going on is the drawing up of the sides of the battle of Armageddon. You wish to hang with the tree worshipers and the child sacrifice types, I want to hang with the Almighty God. So be it. A man has to do what a man has to do, and eat the consequences of his choices.

50 posted on 05/31/2003 2:32:26 AM PDT by American in Israel (Right beats wrong)
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