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Europe Returning to Pagan Roots
NewsMax ^ | May 30, 2003 | Fr. Mike Reilly

Posted on 05/30/2003 9:55:54 PM PDT by Hugenot

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To: ffusco
Yeah, go down to any local house of worship tomorrow morning and feel the oppression and vice. He's projecting his corruption of ethos and honor outward.
101 posted on 05/31/2003 4:58:13 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: ArneFufkin
Sorry, the killing scrum is moving toward the Nile Crocodile "RiverDance" meet and greet.

You could ghost write for Bob Geldoff!
"and now, South American meat-packing glitterati......"
Momentary Lapse of Reason
102 posted on 05/31/2003 4:58:56 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ArneFufkin
He is suffering all right. Just trying to understand.
103 posted on 05/31/2003 5:01:02 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
I just have this vision of Chirac and Schroeder sitting at a table with Aznar, Burlesconi, Kwasinewski and Persson saying "We have nothing if we have no trust in our motives and honor and openness. Despite the scheming of Prime Minister Blair and President Putin."
104 posted on 05/31/2003 5:08:39 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: ffusco
"As Christianity was adopted by many Romans , and later made the state religeon AD300? its followers became increasingly unpatriotic and docile."

How then do you explain the culture of the Byzantines, which was entirely Christian? The truth is the decadence and decay of the west in Europe had begun long before the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. Furthermore, what we know of pagans and the prechristian era is available to us only because the early church kept learning and law alive in the face of repeated incursions by barbarian (ie pagan) hordes whose only use for books was as kindling.

Those in Europe, and here on this board, whose single creative faculty is to denegrate and misrepresent our priceless Christian hertiage resemble, more than anything else, those 4th & 5th century (pagan) Romans who had so lost faith in their own history and culture that they allowed it to whither and die.

Christ Jesus is alive today in the life and souls of BILLIONS. Today! Christ is the watershed event of human history. Modern Europe misreads its own history and in doing so jeopardizes its own future.

That's not going to happen in America.

105 posted on 05/31/2003 5:22:27 AM PDT by Pietro
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To: TheAngryClam
"I'm a young man, and it's sad to think of the state that my nation will be in within my lifetime"

Here's an idea, why don't you crawl back into your mommy's womb and leave life to those w/ the courage to confront it.

106 posted on 05/31/2003 5:27:03 AM PDT by Pietro
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To: Pietro
Our Christian heritage and spiritual power is why "Old Europeans" in and the Liberal American elite fear and hate us so. There's no powerful force of nature like Americas Christian heritage and sublime Constitutional framework. The Poles, Czechs, Baltics, Danes, Italians and Warsaw Pact liberated and loving it understand completely. They want in.
107 posted on 05/31/2003 5:31:28 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: TheAngryClam
Yes, but then the bible foretells of this in it's prophecies of the end times. Europe will unite under one religion again, one presented by the anti-Christ who will worship the "god of forces" or another translation, the "god of fortresses", which turns out to be himself.

There is nothing tired about Christianity, there are just more people falling asleep and falling prey to the "strong delusion" that is already transpiring. For the Christian, observing all these things, times are just heating up and getting exciting.

108 posted on 05/31/2003 5:39:11 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: ArneFufkin
"Our Christian heritage and spiritual power...."

Agreed. The world has never seen a force like the vast American middle class rooted in liberty and wholesome Christianity.

Those who choose to disregard our powerful patrimony resemble nothing so much as the petulant chidren of rich parents intent on squandering the wealth built up by generations of their forebearers. They cannot create, they have only enough imagination to deconstruct.

Happily, out here in the fields of America, a potent spirit breates still and regenerates itself through hard work and creative energy. All of the world marvels at our accomplishments and yearns to be a part of it.

And all are welcome because our God is the God of love.

109 posted on 05/31/2003 5:49:28 AM PDT by Pietro
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To: MissAmericanPie
My brother in law teaches in a middle school, and when I join them at their Parish for mass there are dozens of his current and former students in attendance. They come with their friends, their folks aren't dragging them along.

America has never been stronger. That secular nihilist Vietnam trash are fading away. The kids don't buy their crap anymore, they saw the Towers come down, they saw young men and women their age fight and die for them. They see an honest man sitting in the Oval Office. A man who actually worships God, and understands His blessing to us. They can't be cowered by threats and lies. They want to be inspired and happy.

George W. Bush is forcing Americas vermin into the light of day. They don't survive there, Americans reject their mantra. It's coming together.

We

110 posted on 05/31/2003 5:51:35 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Pietro
The philosophical foundation that our individual rights and essence is gifted by God and protected and nurtured by our carefully designed political state is uniquely powerful, enduring and enriching. That's an operational model that is inimitably American and spectacularly human.
111 posted on 05/31/2003 6:04:16 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Pietro
I'm always jazzed about our prospects, but it's not deluded. I see what is happening here in Minnesota. Minnesotans saw the Wellstone funeral ... they didn't like what they saw. The Minnesota Independent Repbublican Party is organized, professional and winning the marketplace of ideology. The DFL plys their power ONLY in Hennepin County and the urban centers these days. And they are failing miserably there. The Star Tribune will NOT cover Hennepin County business, they know information about liberals means opposition.

This is Minnesota, home of the Socialist Ice people. Folks are seeing the Democrats for what they are ... bagmen and mobsters. The old lies and tactics are empty and transparent. Democrats have no plan of growth and prosperity. Across the board.

As we slowly defund the kickback and patronage theft ... they will have nothing to offer at all.

112 posted on 05/31/2003 6:30:06 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: The Grammarian
"What exactly is the "true" definition to which you are referring?"

This is the best that I have:

"religion" = to be bound again, from "re" - again, and "ligo" - to bind. (from the Greek, I'm told)

"Religion" has always meant "doing" stuff, whether rituals, offerings, or showing submission to some hierarchy.

Christianity is the acceptance of God doing something for us in the person of Himself becoming a man, Jesus Christ, living amongst us, and dying in our place under the curse of our sin so that he is justified in redeemning us for His own forever.

Hence, "Christianity," or "the party of Christ" is not a really reigion at all.

113 posted on 05/31/2003 6:52:46 AM PDT by nightdriver
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To: Pietro
Agreed. The world has never seen a force like the vast American middle class rooted in liberty and wholesome Christianity.

The mojo of the Muslim world is reeling and careening right now. Every lie they've believed, every sacrifice they've made, every despot they've endured has been revealed as a fraud.

The Muslim oppressed have been fed a story about Americas corrupt and soulless heart. Americans are weak, we are venal and we are powerful through our crimes as a group ... but as individuals, the faith and purity of the Muslim man gave him strength and power and dominance over the American man.

That little delusion was blown of the water. America IS strong, her sons and daughters are the most lethal warriors in human history, and the most feared and admired military force and entrenched strongman in the Muslim World was obliterated in three weeks.

The oppressed Arab people were enduring their lives by believing a lie. The fraud is revealed.

That level of self-denial and acceptance of injury cannot sustain itself in the absence of force or fraud. When the walls come tumblin' down ... get out of the way.

114 posted on 05/31/2003 6:53:01 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Pietro
And all are welcome because our God is the God of love.

We worship a God who came to earth as Christ his son and offered eternal life by DYING FOR US.

The Islamist element worships a God who offers eternal life to those who KILL AND DIE FOR HIM.

Nuff said. Columbo is not needed.

115 posted on 05/31/2003 7:10:08 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Hugenot
Europe going back to paganism? They are already there, and we (in the US) seem to be following close behind.
116 posted on 05/31/2003 7:18:58 AM PDT by Gal.5:1
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To: TheAngryClam
we simply need a good Cornelius Sulla to set us right

Heads on pikes on the Washington Mall.

When the proscribed lists come out, I want Ted Turner's ranches.

117 posted on 05/31/2003 7:20:52 AM PDT by razorback-bert
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To: petuniasevan
Europe is dead as far as Christians are concerned, They have surrendered themselves at last to the hordes of Islam.
Charles Martel would turn over in his grave if he could see the state of Europe today.
118 posted on 05/31/2003 7:22:07 AM PDT by Vote 4 Nixon
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To: TheAngryClam
I don't really see the problem- Christianity is just a neutered, tired religion. Once, it was like Islam is now, full of fire and passion and global conquest, but now is nothing more than memories.

You must be unfamiliar with the situation in the 3rd world. See Jenkins, The Next Christendom

119 posted on 05/31/2003 7:29:07 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: tictoc
Compare the above montrosity (the preamble to the new Euro constitution) to the clear, straightforward phrasing of the United States' Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

Exactly! What a wordy, incomprehensible mess.

120 posted on 05/31/2003 7:31:09 AM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: ffusco
Greece and Rome were not half as glorious as modern day armchair historians make them out to be.

Not to mention the fact that both were built on the backs of massive slavery that made the antebellum South look trivial and benign in comparison.

121 posted on 05/31/2003 7:32:10 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: ArneFufkin; ffusco
I understood the allusion
122 posted on 05/31/2003 7:46:14 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy ('the pride of the United States Air Force, the British-made Harrier Jump Jet ")
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To: Vote 4 Nixon
Europe is dead as far as Christians are concerned

The Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats, Romanians, Belarussians, Estonians, Italians, Spaniards and Danes will clean that mess up. After 45 years of fear and abuse ... they won't get fooled again.

We need to help those people help themselves. They'll take care of the Islamoscum.

123 posted on 05/31/2003 7:46:23 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Dat
I think most of the institutions and attitudes we (as conservatives) admire in the Romans were pretty much tied to the Republican era, and as far as I know any Republican sentiment died out by the time of Tiberius (although I don't know, do you know when Romans finally gave up on the idea of the Republic, as it was in the time of the consuls?)

When Caligula was assassinated, there was some sentiment within the Senate to restore the Republic, but of course Claudius was made emperor instead. I don't know if there was anything after that.

124 posted on 05/31/2003 7:46:50 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Vote 4 Nixon
Christianity doesn't seem to be dead in Spain.
125 posted on 05/31/2003 7:50:10 AM PDT by freedom moose
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To: ffusco
I think we are in our Golden Age NOW.

You may very well be right about that. The really important question is whether we can engineer a "soft decline" rather than a "hard fall". Neither is inevitable. The Portugese, Spanish, and British empires are all what I would consider to be examples of empires that had a soft decline. Rome, of course, is the classic example of a hard fall, but there are others as well.

126 posted on 05/31/2003 7:55:07 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Gal.5:1
Europe going back to paganism? They are already there, and we (in the US) seem to be following close behind.
I can only speak for parts of Europe that I'm familiar with such as Spain where I live, but I don't see paganism on the rise here and doubt it ever will be. In fact I think that many people would be surprised at the presence of Christianity in every day life - it hasn't been PCed out of schools, public figures talk about it openly.
127 posted on 05/31/2003 8:00:51 AM PDT by freedom moose
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To: GaConfed
Athens had already lost the Peloponesian war and its empire prior to the trial of Socrates. Athens never was a true democracy even prior to that -- it was a democracy only amongst the freeholding citizens, supported by massive slavery. After losing to Sparta, Athenian democratic institutions were put on a tight leash by the Spartans. Socrates was in trouble mainly because he was a troublemaker and non-conformist at a time when such were not to be tolerated. It can also be argued (as IF Stone did) that one reason Socrates was put to death was because he was actually an anti-democrat, and thus an enemy of the state. Socrates (or at least what we know of him by Plato) hated democracy. He thought that the government should be in the hands of those who had the character and ability to do a good and wise job of governing, rather than in the hands of the mob (which is what Athenian democracy in practice often became). And there is something to be said for this viewpoint, although it did cost Socrates his life in saying it.
128 posted on 05/31/2003 8:03:22 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: TheAngryClam
>it's from religare, but not about being joined to God. Religio, religionis means "a duty" or "an obligation" - in the context of the Roman religion this describes, it's something like "Go make sacrifice X on the third day before the Kalends of March" or "Don't eat that. Ever."<

Good explanation. I can be religious about watching football, or about mowing my lawn, etc.

I prefer to use the term, "devout" instead of "religious", to refer to one who has deep faith in Christ.
129 posted on 05/31/2003 8:04:39 AM PDT by Darnright
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
The really important question is whether we can engineer a "soft decline" rather than a "hard fall".

You need to update your world view. The world is one e-mail, phone call and a 15 hour plane ride away from any point.

There are no empires in a geopolitical sense. America is an empire of blessed spirit, inspired engineering and irresistable and timeless human lure. That's unassailable.

130 posted on 05/31/2003 8:05:06 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: philetus
"Out of reverence for Kronos ( Baal), the Phoenicians, and especially the Carthaginians, whenever they seek to obtain some great favor, vow one of their children, burning it as a sacrifice to the deity, if they are especially eager to gain success...When the flames fall on the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing, until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier."

The Phoenicians were the ancestors of today's Palestinians. Today they wait until their children are 18 or so, and then sacrifice them by having them blow themselves up in crowded places. Progress is great, isn't it?

131 posted on 05/31/2003 8:06:20 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: ffusco
Holy cow...I nearly wrote Vespasian was Bush in post 37. Clinton was Nero with a sax. And I was thinking earlier this week that The Lunar Landing was a good date for the height of our golden age, after our Punic Wars (ww1-2) and our Bellum Socius (civil war).

We even had a general who conquered Gaul and then went on to become our head of government.

132 posted on 05/31/2003 8:10:07 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
Yes, I'm well aware of the timeline that you speak of. And yes, Plato did portray Socrates in the Republic as anti democratic, and as you said, with good reason. Democracy is probably the most dangerous form of government the world has ever known because it is mob rule as you say.

What I find rather interesting is that most of the great philosophical and literary achievements occured during the post Pelo war period when everything was falling apart in Athens and not during the glory days between the Persian War and the Peloponnesian War. Maybe this confirms that adversity tends to make humans a bit more introspective and creative than during the good times.

133 posted on 05/31/2003 8:24:55 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: ArneFufkin
Yes, America is a different kind of empire in a different kind of world. And I am confident that we still have a good, long future ahead of us. But things do change, and it is quite improbable that we will stay on top for all of remaining human history.
134 posted on 05/31/2003 8:26:04 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: GaConfed
Maybe this confirms that adversity tends to make humans a bit more introspective and creative than during the good times.

It's called rent. Sometimes known as groceries.

135 posted on 05/31/2003 8:26:57 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
Slavery played a large part in all civilizations until 1865 AD. Nothing unusual about any of this.
136 posted on 05/31/2003 8:29:11 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: ArneFufkin
You have a point, but maybe developing the intellect might be escapism from reality also.
137 posted on 05/31/2003 8:32:16 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
We survived our Civil War. We beat down the two most dangerous and brutal worldwide threats in human history in German/Japanese Fascism and Sino-Soviet Communism. We'll take Islamism down too. Then whatever ism springs up from the putrid septic tank of bad hearted man.

America will always be in a "Next?" mode. Brokaw is full of it, there is no ONE SINGLE greatest American generation. Our young soldiers stepped up and demonstrated their courage and skill last month. Every American generation is great when events warrant. We'll be around until the Big Star blows up good. We've got a winning human model.

138 posted on 05/31/2003 8:34:16 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: GaConfed
I think its a lot of free time.
139 posted on 05/31/2003 8:34:54 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: GaConfed
What I find rather interesting is that most of the great philosophical and literary achievements occured during the post Pelo war period when everything was falling apart in Athens and not during the glory days between the Persian War and the Peloponnesian War. Maybe this confirms that adversity tends to make humans a bit more introspective and creative than during the good times.

Well, I'm not sure I would quite agree with your assessment. Yes, Plato and Aristotle were both late, but Homer, Herodotus, and the great playrights were all prior to the end of the Peloponnesian war. And there were many other good philosophers back then, too, but we have lost many of their works. Aristotle was in many ways not so much an original thinker but rather a summarizer of what had been done prior to himself -- particularly by those living during the golden age of Pericles. In today's terms, he would be writing textbooks rather than publishing groundbreaking new research papers. It is even very much debatable how much of Plato's material is original and how much is directly from his teacher Socrates.

140 posted on 05/31/2003 8:36:03 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: ArneFufkin
Well, when the Constitutional Convention ended, a lady asked old Ben Franklin if they had given us a republic or a monarchy. Ben replied: "A republic. . . IF YOU CAN KEEP IT!"

That's the bottom line, isn't it? We can have a bright and indefinite future, but only to the extent that the right choices and actions are taken by each succeeding generation. There is no given or guarantee about that, it is all contingent, and can never be taken for granted.

141 posted on 05/31/2003 8:39:58 AM PDT by Stefan Stackhouse
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To: Stefan Stackhouse
The beauty of this place is that it will always be a destination of hope and prosperity for people around the world. They will always keep the flame of industrious contibution alive. If they knock you or me off the team ... well, that's an evolutionary mandate if we're not getting the job done. I'm fixing to stay in the lineup by getting better and better. Everyone here should share that opportunity.

That's what keeps America fit and feisty. Ben could never have forseen 2003 America. He'd be lost in joy if he did.

142 posted on 05/31/2003 8:53:36 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: TheAngryClam
...the source of the modern word "religion."

Who ever said anything about the "modern" word, anyway? I was talking about the "true" definition, for which I have already made my case.

143 posted on 05/31/2003 8:55:55 AM PDT by The Grammarian
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To: philetus
True. We've certainly come a long way. Now, we abort them. I suppose it is progress -- it beats the post-partum abortions in Northern Ireland, India, China, the Middle East and Africa all to hell. To those who choose that route, I say, "Go for it! Kill them before you can hear the screams. Noise pollution is probably a great concern to those who choose that route." We'll let God sort it out later, and I can assure you He's heard each and every scream.
144 posted on 05/31/2003 8:56:21 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Hugenot
""It borders on the ridiculous that the Preamble should make nominal reference to the Hellenistic and Roman component and jump directly to the 'philosophers of the Enlightenment,' omitting the Christian reference without which the Enlightenment is incomprehensible," Josep Miro i Ardevol, president of the Convention of Christians for Europe, said in a statement."

And these same countries coddle a virulent strain of Islam unknown to the US. Apparently they have forgotten, purposely, the Jews and the other branches of the Monotheistic tree and therefore fail to point out the regressive ness of Islam and the progressiveness of today's Judaism and Christianity.

What Sort of Hat Are You? ."...antidemocratic sentiment was not merely an ephermeral trend, but a defining feature of 20th century French political culture."Today Heidegger Lives In France" .


145 posted on 05/31/2003 8:57:41 AM PDT by Helms (Dems Find Smoking Gun: 45-55 Loss in Senate, Bush Wins 2nd Term)
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To: Helms
Islam is a bad program in its current form. If Judeo-Christian America is the best human construct in our history ... Islam is one of the worst. It's a scam for despotism and inflammatory manipulation from the day Mohammed probably killed some guy and found his notes. He always had visions from Allah just when he needed to round up some battle fodder for his next campaign or defense.

In a way, it's like the old Divine Right game the inbred European Monarchs played. The Quran means only what that Mosque's holy man interperts from original Arabic that nobody else has access. That's well regulated. The good Muslim people need to take those heretics to the mat before we do.

146 posted on 05/31/2003 9:07:36 AM PDT by ArneFufkin
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To: freedom moose
Nah, we're just resting. You wait and see how many Christians hop out of the woodpile if we experience another attack (God forbid!). It's like getting in the middle of a family argument. We can all say such horrendous things to each other, but let somebody tell us we can't be practicing Christians anymore, and you'll see the underlying fabric of moral fiber is still strong -- though freyed. I, for one, would make jihad look like a Sunday School Picnic, and I'm about the most laid-back, live and let live sort of girl.

Make no mistake, there are more of us out there. We just don't feel comfortable in watered-down, one-size fits all Christianity, and don't wish to become listed as Cult Members because we practice our faith daily.
147 posted on 05/31/2003 9:07:39 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Kerberos
Exactly, beginning with the fleeing of people from Europe for the new world (America). And why were these people fleeing Europe, to escape the oppressive rule of church and state. So today, we have some people who want to re-create that European model here.

Yeah, a "church" that was specifically set up so that a degenrate king could divorce and remarry. I still find it amazing that anyone is surprised, historically speaking, that such a "church" turned out to be tyrannical.

Otherwise, the point of your premise is wholly ludicrous. I guess that's why strong churches grew up so quickly in the United States? And when the immigrants of the 19th and 20th century came here (the large majority Catholic), it was to escape political-statist oppression of the kind that killed priests, burned churches, and attempted to control religious leaders. There are many in this country today who attempt to do similar things to those religious leaders who don't tow the secular/elitist line on issues such as homosexuality, abortion, birthcontrol. We will fight them now as we did then.

And guess what? We already know the ending. The good guys win.
148 posted on 05/31/2003 9:09:52 AM PDT by Antoninus (In hoc signo, vinces )
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To: TheAngryClam
We'll see. I suspect the world will continue long after you and I have left it.

Indeed that is true, however I suspect I will continue on after the world has left, as I suspect will you. I in the presence of God, you not. Ah well, at least we both will get our way! -grin-

149 posted on 05/31/2003 9:13:59 AM PDT by American in Israel (Right beats wrong)
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To: TheAngryClam
I don't really see the problem- Christianity is just a neutered, tired religion.
Once, it was like Islam is now, full of fire and passion and global conquest, but now is nothing more than memories.

Well Christianity is the fastest growing religion in Asia, Africa and South America. Third world Christians are much more conservative than their European and North American Counter parts. In 20 years there will be an african or Asian pope since the majority of the Cardinals will be from third world counties.

This is all common knowledge among those who are keeping an eye on things.

Liberals, secularists and the unimformed are in for a real shock, shortly.

Moreover, liberal protestants, secular humanists and pagan agnostic Europeans are in for the rudest awakening of all. They will all be consigned to the ash heeps and foot notes of history by the fundamentalist Christian civilization that is coming to supercede them. They don't have the will to survive and fight Islam. The third world Christian wave is ready and willing to take on Islam. Look at the Sudan, all Islam sponsored war in Africa, the Phillipines etc.

Get ready for the real thing. The new world order will be the domination of populations belonging to third world Christianity.

150 posted on 05/31/2003 9:16:31 AM PDT by Podkayne
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