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To: nightdriver
Many pagan rituals were acts of patriotism in Rome- like our Pledge of Allegience, and refering to the signers as The Founding Fathers.

As Christianity was adopted by many Romans , and later made the state religeon AD300? its followers became increasingly unpatriotic and docile. Not only was the "Eternal Flame" of Rome allowed to be extiguished (legend says it burned continuosly for centuries) but the very infrastructure of civilization was allowed to deteriorate.

Of course there were numerous factors that led to Romes fall including: Immigration, a lazy middle class, a foreign army, high taxes, massive public asistance, and the tyranny of corrupt military leaders.
28 posted on 05/31/2003 12:26:03 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: ffusco
If I remember correctly, as areas became Romanized the number of soldiers recruited from those areas declined remarkably. I believe that by the time of the empire most soldiers were from the provinces and then later on from areas outside the empire. I don't know whether patriotism was a factor in most of Rome in the time just before the rise of Christianty as most of the population were not really citizens in the modern sense of the word.

I think most of the institutions and attitudes we (as conservatives) admire in the Romans were pretty much tied to the Republican era, and as far as I know any Republican sentiment died out by the time of Tiberius (although I don't know, do you know when Romans finally gave up on the idea of the Republic, as it was in the time of the consuls?)
32 posted on 05/31/2003 12:45:52 AM PDT by Dat
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To: ffusco
Of course there were numerous factors that led to Romes fall including: Immigration, a lazy middle class, a foreign army, high taxes, massive public asistance, and the tyranny of corrupt military leaders.

With the exception of the two allusions to the military, all the factors you list are present in our society today (of course, with generals around like Wesley Clark, you may be able to include that one too).

As for Christianity, I think the negative impact on European culture was due more to the governing buracracy that the Catholic Chruch built up around Chistianity than Christianity itself; things like promoting ignorance and illiteracy through the Latin translation of the Bible, and then only allowing the clergy to learn Latin.

33 posted on 05/31/2003 1:00:35 AM PDT by GaConfed
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To: ffusco
"As Christianity was adopted by many Romans , and later made the state religeon AD300? its followers became increasingly unpatriotic and docile."

How then do you explain the culture of the Byzantines, which was entirely Christian? The truth is the decadence and decay of the west in Europe had begun long before the establishment of Christianity as the state religion. Furthermore, what we know of pagans and the prechristian era is available to us only because the early church kept learning and law alive in the face of repeated incursions by barbarian (ie pagan) hordes whose only use for books was as kindling.

Those in Europe, and here on this board, whose single creative faculty is to denegrate and misrepresent our priceless Christian hertiage resemble, more than anything else, those 4th & 5th century (pagan) Romans who had so lost faith in their own history and culture that they allowed it to whither and die.

Christ Jesus is alive today in the life and souls of BILLIONS. Today! Christ is the watershed event of human history. Modern Europe misreads its own history and in doing so jeopardizes its own future.

That's not going to happen in America.

105 posted on 05/31/2003 5:22:27 AM PDT by Pietro
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To: ffusco
Oh I see. Caligula and the rest of those would-be 'gods' were not a disaster for the Roman Empire and Europe, Christiandom was a disaster for Europe.

I sense a propblem of the will here, not the intellect. No one smart enough to use a computer could possibly make the statement you made unless a willful blindness is throughly in place.

The Roman Empire was falling from its own corruption, as all power tends to do. Only because of the saving work of Jesus Christ on its citizens could a handful of nations rise from the ashes of the Roman Empire to rule the rest of the world for about two centuries. Without that spiritual capital, the nations of western Europe would not have been exalted over other nations of the world.

As the light of Christiandom faded from those shores, it burned more brightly in American and we had "the American Century". If you want to know what nations will be the greatest nations on Earth a generation from now, look on the nations where the Gospel of Jesus Christ is ascendant. This is the lesson of History since the reformation.
154 posted on 05/31/2003 9:24:19 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: ffusco
Of course there were numerous factors that led to Romes fall including: Immigration, a lazy middle class, a foreign army, high taxes, massive public asistance, and the tyranny of corrupt military leaders

Most of which would not have occured had the Romans adhered to Christian principles. But it's much more fun to bash Christianity, so let's just stick to that.
295 posted on 06/01/2003 2:51:02 PM PDT by zonan
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