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Laci's things in tug of war
The Modesto Bee ^ | May 31, 2003 | Garth Stapely and John Cote'

Posted on 05/31/2003 8:41:50 AM PDT by runningbear

Laci's things in tug of war


Laci Peterson's brother Brent Rocha loads a rocking chair from her Modesto home into the back of a truck Friday morning.

Laci's things in tug of war

By GARTH STAPLEY and JOHN COTÉ

BEE STAFF WRITERS

Published: May 31, 2003, 07:16:10 AM PDT

Laci Peterson's family and friends removed truckloads of items from the slain Modesto woman's house on Friday, touching off controversy between her family and that of her husband.

Police responded to the Covena Avenue home at about 10 a.m. after a security company reported that the alarm had been triggered, Capt. Greg Savelli said.

Officers determined that Laci Peterson's family and friends were removing items that belonged to Laci, said Savelli, who added that officers documented what was taken.

"We're treating this as a civil dispute over property," he said. "It was clear to the Police Department that this was not a burglary.

Peterson's husband, Scott, 30, has been charged with double murder and faces the death penalty in the killings of his 27-year-old wife and their unborn son, Conner.

Savelli said the fallout from Friday's property removal "was best handled between the families and their attorneys."

Adam Stewart, an attorney for Laci Peterson's family, said the family had been in contact with Scott Peterson's defense team, who had agreed to allow Laci's mother, Sharon Rocha, to go through the house on Tuesday. She was to be accompanied by representatives of the defense team, and all items taken were to be photographed and videotaped.

Scott Peterson's parents and lawyers expressed outrage that the Rochas did not follow the agreement.

Jackie Peterson said the people who went into the home Friday had "absolutely no permission to be in that house. I have a lot of empathy for Sharon, but she does not have a right to go in our house and take what she wants."

Rocha did not appear to be among the packers. Calls placed to the Rocha home were not accepted.

Seven vehicles loaded

Among the items loaded into seven vehicles were a crib, a rocking chair and a box with Graco printed on the outside. Graco makes such products as strollers, highchairs and car seats.

Laci Peterson's family announced Wednesday that it had hired attorneys to help recover items from the house. A list included her wedding dress, jewelry and Conner's crib.

Jackie Peterson told The Bee that the security company notified her by telephone in San Diego County that the house alarm had been tripped.

The property removal appeared to take Scott Peterson's defense team by surprise.

Matthew Dalton, an attorney with lead defense attorney Mark Geragos' law firm, drove to the house and asked reporters if someone had reported a burglary.

Dalton went to Stewart's Modesto law office Friday morning and dropped off some items requested by the Rocha family, Stewart said.

Monday, the defense team moved other items, including what appeared to be gifts, to the Modesto office of defense co-counsel Kirk McAllister, for transfer to Laci Peterson's family. But the items had not been picked up by Friday morning, McAllister said.

Stewart said in front of the home that it would be "ridiculous" to suggest that the Rochas broke into the home.

"I apologize for it coming down to this," he said. "This is not the way we operate. This is for Laci, for Conner and Laci's family. It is not for the media or Mr. Scott Peterson's defense in any way, shape or form. It's depressing that it's come down to this."

Stanislaus County Chief Deputy District Attorney John Goold said prosecutors had no legal authority over the house.

"It's not a crime scene," Goold said. " This is a civil problem between the Rochas and the Petersons."

The house title is in Laci and Scott Petersons' names, county records show. In such a joint tenancy, when one titleholder dies, the title goes to the other.

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Incident brings Peterson case close to home
Victim's family moves items from house, raising the issue of ownership.

Incident brings Peterson case close to home
Victim's family moves items from house, raising the issue of ownership.

By Garth Stapley and John Coté
The Modesto Bee

(Published Saturday, May 31, 2003, 4:47 AM)

MODESTO -- Laci Peterson's family and friends removed truckloads of items from the slain Modesto woman's house Friday, touching off controversy between her family and that of her husband.

Police officers were dispatched after a security company notified them that the alarm at the Covena Avenue home had been triggered, Capt. Greg Savelli said.

Officers determined that members of the Rocha family and friends of Laci Peterson were removing items that belonged to the slain woman and documented what was taken, Savelli said.

"We're treating this as a civil dispute over property," he said. "It was clear to the police department that this was not a burglary. It was a dispute over property and was best handled between the families and their attorneys."

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Judge cites Peterson right to fair trial in denying report access

Judge cites Peterson right to fair trial in denying report access

By JOHN COTÉ
BEE STAFF WRITER

Published: May 31, 2003, 07:16:56 AM PDT

A Stanislaus County judge on Friday ordered that arrest and search warrants remain sealed in the case against Scott Peterson, who is accused of murdering his pregnant wife and unborn son.

Superior Court Judge Al Giro-lami's ruling also ordered the autopsy reports for Laci and Conner to stay sealed.

Thursday, District Attorney James Brazelton reversed his position and asked to have the autopsy reports made public, and the matter is set for hearing June 6.

Brazelton's about-face came after part of the fetus's autopsy report was leaked to the media. Prosecutors said that portion was clearly "skewed in favor of the defense."

Defense attorneys, coroner's officials, police and prosecutors have denied leaking the information.

Friday, in his ruling on all the documents, Girolami said releasing them "might irreparably harm the continued investigation into this criminal matter."

"Despite the fact that the complaint has been issued and a suspect has been arrested, the investigation and search for both incriminating and exonerating evidence in this matter continues," Girolami wrote.

Prosecutors and defense attorneys argued that releasing the documents could impede Peterson's right to a fair trial and damage an ongoing investigation.

Girolami agreed, saying in his ruling that releasing the documents "might result in the evidence being destroyed and witnesses being reluctant to step forward."

A group of newspapers, including The Bee, are seeking to have the documents unsealed.

Right to view reports argued

Charity Kenyon, an attorney representing the newspapers, argued that the public's right to view court documents was fundamental in an open legal system.

Other means exist for ensuring

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Judge orders Laci Peterson autopsy report sealed

Judge orders Laci Peterson autopsy report sealed

The Modesto Bee

The Associated Press

Published: May 31, 2003, 06:49:17 AM PDT

MODESTO, Calif. (AP) - A judge ruled Friday that an autopsy report on the deaths of Laci Peterson and her unborn son should remain sealed along with other search warrant and arrest records.

Superior Court Judge Al Girolami said releasing the information could hamper the murder investigation and prejudice public opinion before a trial begins.

Girolami is scheduled to hear more arguments June 6 from prosecutors preparing a murder case against Peterson's husband, Scott Peterson. Prosecutors on Thursday asked that the autopsy reports be released to the public. They argued that media leaks of the reports are biased toward the defense.

Girolami also ordered that leaks of sealed information stop and indicated he would consider a gag order to stop the prosecution and defense teams from talking to the media.

Scott Peterson, 30, is accused of killing his wife and unborn son, whom the couple had planned to name Conner, last December in their home. Laci, 27, was eight months pregnant at the time. The bodies washed ashore in San Francisco Bay last month.

Contra Costa County authorities concluded their autopsy report earlier this month, but did not disclose the cause of death.

Several media outlets have released details of the coroner's report, and a spokeswoman for Laci Peterson's family members said Thursday they were "devastated" at hearing autopsy reports without warning on television.

The leaked reports indicated the unborn son had plastic tape wrapped around his neck and a significant cut across the shoulders.

Meanwhile, friends of Laci Peterson removed several personal articles Friday from the single-story Modesto home where she and Scott Peterson lived.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

MOM'S MOVING MOMENT

MOM'S MOVING MOMENT

By HOWARD BREUER and MARSHA KRANES

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 31, 2003 -- Laci Peterson's mother - shattered by the graphic details leaked from the 25-page autopsy of her unborn grandson - yesterday began removing her slain daughter's belongings from the home she had shared with her accused murderer husband, Scott.

Sharon Rocha, accompanied by several friends and relatives, was seen at the Modesto, Calif., house removing the rocking chair Laci had bought to use when she nursed her infant son, as well as unopened Christmas gifts, clothing, chairs, lamps and artwork.

In doing so, she ignored the advice of her lawyer, Al Clark, that she wait until he, Scott Peterson's lawyers and court officials work out the procedures to be followed when she entered the house.

Modesto police arrived while Rocha was there, and she and her entourage left a short time later after packing seven cars full of Laci's belongings.

Hours later, lawyers representing Laci's family and Scott Peterson started haggling over whether removing the items was legal.

Scott Peterson's mother, Jackie, expressed outrage that the items had been removed since Laci's family had "absolutely no permission to be in that house."

Scott Peterson has pleaded not guilty to killing his wife and their unborn son.

Laci's family said Wednesday that they had hired lawyers to help them retrieve a baby crib and jewelry from the home.

Meanwhile, Clark told Fox News his client's anger over the grisly revelations leaked from her daughter's and grandson's sealed autopsy reports drove her to go get her daughter's possessions.

A family spokeswoman said Rocha was "devastated" by the reports describing how the near full-term fetus of her grandson Conner had plastic tape wrapped around the neck and a large cut across the chest when he was found in the shallow waters of San Francisco Bay last month.

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(Excerpt) Read more at modbee.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: avoidingchildsupport; baby; babyunborn; conner; deathpenaltytime; dontubelievemyalibi; getarope; ibefishing; laci; lacipeterson; smallbaby; smallchild; sonkiller; unborn; wifekiller
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To: Canadian Outrage
I'm talking about your legalistic, superiority attitude. Some of us just disagree with you that the Rocha's committed theft.

And that's all fine and well. I can respect that - disagreement, I mean. Which is why I've avoided personal attacks. :0)

601 posted on 05/31/2003 9:57:47 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (A blind man received a cheese grater as a gift - said it was the most violent thing he had ever read)
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To: Howlin
every word Scott Peterson and his yakky parents have said has turned out to be a lie. Be sure and put your "eggs" in that basket.

That is just what I said!

I don't have my eggs in ANYONE'S basket.

Why should I?

602 posted on 05/31/2003 10:01:14 PM PDT by Yeti
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To: clearvision
Gee thanks for the rebuke. LOL I don't see my posts as being "personal" attacks. I was pointing out an attitude.
603 posted on 05/31/2003 10:01:16 PM PDT by Canadian Outrage (All us Western Canuks belong South)
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To: Canadian Outrage
On that note, I now MUST give up the computer!! GRRRR - Good night all.
604 posted on 05/31/2003 10:04:35 PM PDT by Canadian Outrage (All us Western Canuks belong South)
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To: Canadian Outrage
Good night! Sleep well!
605 posted on 05/31/2003 10:05:01 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (A blind man received a cheese grater as a gift - said it was the most violent thing he had ever read)
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To: runningbear
Hi yourself.

I only hope more people in this venue understand that opinion is not definition, or resolution.
606 posted on 05/31/2003 10:09:20 PM PDT by norton
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To: Chad Fairbanks
Came to the partly late, but found you very entertaining.



607 posted on 05/31/2003 10:09:35 PM PDT by Valpal1 (Impeach the 9th! Please!!)
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To: RGSpincich
I wasn't aware that a broad daylight burglary was any different than one conducted late at night.

And, there is considerable debate as to your other comments, like "not legally in complete control" (what???)

It's a two way street, negotiations were in progress, actions had been taken, the Rocha's decided to drop the legal activity and break in....

Busted.
608 posted on 05/31/2003 10:17:03 PM PDT by norton (Keep on truckin')
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To: Chad Fairbanks
... I guess I'll be going postal one day ;0)

Please be sure to give me fair warning - at least 24 hours in advance. :0P

609 posted on 05/31/2003 10:18:39 PM PDT by CAPPSMADNESS (custom made smarmy, sanctimonious taglines created while you wait!!)
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To: CAPPSMADNESS
Well, ok. But if I did decide to do it, I'd pick a place where I had no connections, and then I'd have the fun of watching the collective media try to find a motive heh heh heh
610 posted on 05/31/2003 10:19:36 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (A blind man received a cheese grater as a gift - said it was the most violent thing he had ever read)
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To: norton
Busted.

Not busted...or charged. Get a restraining order if you don't want them to use their key. Changing the alarm code makes a racket but doesn't prevent the Rochas from entering the property legally.

611 posted on 05/31/2003 10:24:01 PM PDT by RGSpincich
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To: Canadian Outrage
(and to Spectre)

1) Wrong? We don't know who is right or wrong, we only have our own opinions. Sorry about your groceries but must admit I see little connection between bologna and ... oh well, maybe...

2) "He did it" Very possible. Husband is always first choice unless there is a boyfriend available. Motive, if there is a motive that 'normal' people can identify, lies with someone close to the victim. Scott is choice number one, unless you are a football star and had an iron clad alibi like midnight golf practice, or unless you were not made part of the media circus and no body even knew about the suddenly local tragedy.
612 posted on 05/31/2003 10:24:07 PM PDT by norton (Keep on truckin')
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To: Jackie-O
Yeah,

I never made the big time.

Now, you might possibly tell me what the heck that matters?
613 posted on 05/31/2003 10:25:30 PM PDT by norton (Keep on truckin')
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To: RGSpincich
Rense is not a reliable source. It's a flying saucer, aliens, paranormal site. If we even wanted to believe them, their predictions and channelings of the Chandra Levy case were laughably wrong.

From my looking throught the various crimes that appear on lists like this is a couple of 19 year old disgrunted teenagers go out and kill someone and scrawl a sign from Dungeons and Dragons game and the media touts it as a satanic crime.

So people like Fuhrman and Wecht who scoff at this stuff are right!

614 posted on 05/31/2003 10:29:29 PM PDT by BunnySlippers
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To: BunnySlippers
I committed a satanic crime one. On christmas eve, when I was 14, I stole the Baby Jesus from the town nativity scene. I've lived with the shame of that ever since, even though I've been forgiven.

Satan exists, alright, and he is the inspiration for many crimes. But in the end, he will be defeated...


615 posted on 05/31/2003 10:32:27 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (A blind man received a cheese grater as a gift - said it was the most violent thing he had ever read)
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To: BunnySlippers
My feelings, too.
616 posted on 05/31/2003 10:32:55 PM PDT by RGSpincich
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To: Yeti
Could she have lung damage or emphysema that just makes it hard to catch her breath?

Yes, she could have chronic bronchitis with brochospasm. She could have moderate lung damage and experiences SOB while under stress. She could also be psycologically dependant on the O2. It is very frightening to not be able to breath, some chronic lung patients just feel better knowing that there is O2 available to them.

It is also worth noting that some chronic lung patients indeed experience personality changes due to lack of oxygen and irritability due to not being able to breath. Not an easy life and not an easy death. Regardless of what her son stands accused of - I pity this woman as much as I pity the other family members.

617 posted on 05/31/2003 10:36:51 PM PDT by CAPPSMADNESS (custom made smarmy, sanctimonious taglines created while you wait!!)
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To: allyoop77
Chad Faibanks is a sarcastic fellow by nature.

He is ok because he is what he is.

Have a good laugh and enjoy his posts.
618 posted on 05/31/2003 10:38:02 PM PDT by oceanperch (Who needs Hollywood Productions when you have Fox Reality TV?)
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To: daylate-dollarshort; RGSpincich; Chad Fairbanks
Daylate, I meant 614 for you ... sent to RG by mistake.
619 posted on 05/31/2003 10:41:14 PM PDT by BunnySlippers
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To: Chad Fairbanks
Quitre frankly, I'm beginnig to dislike Laci's family as much as I dislike Scott's - it's tragic under the circumstances, that what we are seeing is the worst coming out in everyone involved... not just one side... The Rochas have been the picture of elegance in this horribly difficult situation, at some point, under the stress everyone cracks. They have held up admirably thru all of this, I don't hold it against them for wanting Laci's personal things, the Petersons are the ones who have mouthed off all along. Their denying the Rochas their daughters belongings was obviously the last straw!
620 posted on 05/31/2003 10:44:44 PM PDT by blondee123 (Prez Bush Rules; Our military Rules! God Bless America!)
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To: clouda
the pics of the presents and the card from Auntie Laci really is very sad.....wonder who the presents are for...

I am beginning to really love blue at Christmas time.....for wrapping, etc....

Laci had good taste...except in men...

don't we wish we could have warned her ...

621 posted on 05/31/2003 10:45:29 PM PDT by cherry (`)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
On a tv show the other night they cooked Armadillo Yuk I thought so thats where the on up Fairbanks leg went to. :u)
622 posted on 05/31/2003 10:47:33 PM PDT by oceanperch (Who needs Hollywood Productions when you have Fox Reality TV?)
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To: RGSpincich; runningbear
thank you for the links.. whew..I've been so busy today..haven't had any time to study this thread. I did a quick google news search for satanic rituals. Personally, I think it's a smoke screen...and the defense is doing what they get paid to do. :(

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=satanic+rituals&btnG=Search+News
623 posted on 05/31/2003 10:47:51 PM PDT by Freedom2specul8 (Please pray for our troops.... http://anyservicemember.navy.mil/)
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To: oceanperch
I finally had to let the armadillo go. I hated to see it go, but there were protesters outside my pants yelling all the time... so, I finally freed it...
624 posted on 05/31/2003 10:49:00 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (A blind man received a cheese grater as a gift - said it was the most violent thing he had ever read)
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To: A CA Guy; All
The Laci Peterson case has arrived
CA Guy is posting here now. (sarcasm)
625 posted on 05/31/2003 10:54:44 PM PDT by oceanperch (Who needs Hollywood Productions when you have Fox Reality TV?)
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To: Yeti
"I think the Rochas are showing something about themselves as a clan by doing this."

yes.....that they are human and there is an end to someone's patience.....

gee....to go and retrieve stupid, probably cheap little items of sentimental value so mom and brother and dad can at least visualize their dear loved one....

yeah.....you're right....it does show something about them....something good...

626 posted on 05/31/2003 10:58:19 PM PDT by cherry (`)
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To: Chad Fairbanks; Yeti
Hey..I am not 100% sure of his guilt of murder but I am 98% sure....

let's wait for the trial....but if the Peterson cabal and their moustached gang leader continue this obscence vendetta against the Rocha's then they deserve all the grief they get....

627 posted on 05/31/2003 11:07:08 PM PDT by cherry (`)
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To: Jackie-O
But, Jackie-O, haven't you noticed that Geragos and Jackie P. are identical twins separated at birth?
628 posted on 05/31/2003 11:33:07 PM PDT by EastCoast (The Geragos' stage play reminds me of "Wrongfully Accused" w/Leslie Nielson)
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To: oceanperch
HaHa, actually I was posting earlier in the morning, so we have to say it arrived Saturday morning...lol

Actually being people die across the country from murder by the hour, though I feel bad for her family, I am aware this is just very publicized and no less gruesome or deserving than other deaths.
629 posted on 06/01/2003 12:02:31 AM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Chad Fairbanks; RGSpincich
Speaking of JOINT PROPERTY: Are heirlooms (diamonds in this case) given to a close relative (granddaughter in this case) considered joint property? I'm wondering how Scottie could demand them back, unless it's a CA thing.
630 posted on 06/01/2003 12:04:22 AM PDT by EastCoast (The Geragos' stage play reminds me of "Wrongfully Accused" w/Leslie Nielson)
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To: cherry
My color theme this last year was powder blue and silver. Probably going to use it again next year.
631 posted on 06/01/2003 12:08:12 AM PDT by oceanperch (Who needs Hollywood Productions when you have Fox Reality TV?)
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To: A CA Guy
Yet it does make us more aware of the other cases.

RB has posted other cases along with as well.

Another reason to be satisfied as single for life.

And to think I could never share a bathroom was one of my biggest reasons. : )
632 posted on 06/01/2003 12:12:57 AM PDT by oceanperch (Who needs Hollywood Productions when you have Fox Reality TV?)
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To: Rusty Roberts
Grandmother's diamonds and Laci's rings at the jewelers: IMO, scottie is having them made into ONE ring. Mighty nice engagement ring, no?

Laci's wedding gown: "stolen" by a friend of scott's who walked McKenzie. But it was returned, thanks to LE; scott had it cleaned, etc. and had to give it to the Rochas. IMO, would have made a mighty fine wedding present for the new bride, no?

633 posted on 06/01/2003 12:21:47 AM PDT by EastCoast (The Geragos' stage play reminds me of "Wrongfully Accused" w/Leslie Nielson)
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To: oceanperch
LOL, though not married, I would not mind being so if the right person worked out.
The funny thing is I'm being razzed by friends because I live by myself and am adding "again" to the size of my house.

The quality of life is important because we only get one.
634 posted on 06/01/2003 12:23:23 AM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy
Darn to bad you are not female.

I know a guy 38 fairly good looking and conservative who just cannot find a wife . He really wants to be married.

My house is the same a lot of room and property but I only use one of the bathrooms and bedroom/living room.

Could never live in a trak home with neighbors within spitting distance again.

I think that you might agree that being single is pretty hassle free the toughest part is being chaste. Cheaper too.
635 posted on 06/01/2003 12:40:18 AM PDT by oceanperch (Who needs Hollywood Productions when you have Fox Reality TV?)
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To: Jackie-O; All
Does anyone know why it was that Geragos was chosen to be SP's atty and who chose him? Considering his track record at trial's end, why would anyone hire him? Could it have been the old grump, McAllister? Just curious because of all the high-powered attys out there, why Geragos? Pro-bono, maybe?
636 posted on 06/01/2003 12:56:42 AM PDT by EastCoast (The Geragos' stage play reminds me of "Wrongfully Accused" w/Leslie Nielson)
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To: oceanperch
I can live with me and my own company isn't bad, but I equally enjoy others. Also I think we were not meant to be alone, though I have plenty of relatives that would like to move in...LOL No way!
637 posted on 06/01/2003 1:04:36 AM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: EastCoast
What I find intersting is that NE took pics inside Laci's house. Supposedly hopped the fence.

Why didn't the alarm in the home go off then unless Jackie knew they were coming.

I wonder if they paid Jackie P money to take pictures inside the home.
638 posted on 06/01/2003 1:26:48 AM PDT by oceanperch (Who needs Hollywood Productions when you have Fox Reality TV?)
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To: Chad Fairbanks
Have you ever heard of the phrase "possession is 9/10ths of the law?" If the Peterson's already distributed everything to relatives on their side, all they have to do is tell the Rocha's they didn't have that item, or couldn't find it, or Laci must have sold it cause they never saw it, etc.

I had the same situation happen to me 8 years ago. Here's the plot in a nutshell: Evil older brother has our ill mother (with a drinking problem) make a trust, negating previous will that divided everything equally. You guessed it -- the new trust gave him almost everything. Can't be changed since mother died before existance of trust was discovered.

When I asked for some special items that my mother had promised me since I was a little girl, I was told they couldn't find it or they just ignored my request. Needless to say, we have been estranged since then (my choice entirely -- he doesn't really know why I am so upset!).

Frankly, I don't blame the Roche family one bit. If my brother didn't have guns, I would have done the same thing.

639 posted on 06/01/2003 3:06:18 AM PDT by IrishRainy
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To: Chad Fairbanks
It doesn't seem to me that you know much at all about this case. Some of us here have been following it in depth and have come to the conclusion that Scott was very much involved in his wife's disappearance and subsequent demise. If you aren't interested enough in the case to at least familiarize yourself with the details, why post so much about it?
640 posted on 06/01/2003 3:42:09 AM PDT by IrishRainy
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To: clouda
Scott had plenty of time (four months) to "sit...and grieve the loss of his wife and child," and evidently he did that best on the golf course and in strip bars, among other places.
641 posted on 06/01/2003 4:15:06 AM PDT by IrishRainy
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To: BunnySlippers
I agree that Rense in of itself is not a reliable source and needs "double checking". To that end I checked the sources, Modesto Bee, Indianapolis Star, USA Today, The Washington Post, Reuters, etc. On all those checked, the stories were as reported. To challenge Furman's and others statement that there are no recorded satanic ritual killings all that needs to be demonstrated is one.

By the way Wecht, does not say there are no ritual or Satanic killings, just that in his opinion he sees no evidence of this in the Laci Peterson Case. The imminent crimonologist, Henry Lee, has described the evidence he typically looks for in ritual murders and has claimed that, while rare, they do exist.





642 posted on 06/01/2003 4:51:45 AM PDT by daylate-dollarshort (http://www.strato.net/~cmranch)
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To: runningbear
Not much work finding them- they were listed on one questionable website. Finding the articles to verify the site's claim was a chore. Almost all the articles are archived. Some sites allowed searching of the archives, other's charge a fee ranging from $1.95 to $3.95 to access the archive and retrieve the articles.

Sometimes you get lucky and find a casched copy of the original article.

I haven't found all of the articles cited. However, all that is necessary it to find one to debunk Furman's claim that there has never been any. So far, of all that I've been able to find the original article, they all confirm that they were described as satanic or ritual killings.


643 posted on 06/01/2003 5:01:41 AM PDT by daylate-dollarshort (http://www.strato.net/~cmranch)
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To: BunnySlippers
see my other post to you-----
644 posted on 06/01/2003 5:02:57 AM PDT by daylate-dollarshort (http://www.strato.net/~cmranch)
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To: cyncooper
Main thread for Saturday.
645 posted on 06/01/2003 5:08:06 AM PDT by EllaMinnow
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To: RGSpincich
The original article was easy to check. The prosecutors statement that the defendants hoped a virgin sacrifice would earn them "a ticket to hell" is contained in the original article reporting of the case.

The defendants pleaded guilty to the charge of killing a 15 year old girl,Elyse Pahler, and were sentenced as juevenilles. Under California law, at least at the time of sentencing, they had to be released upon their 21st birthdays.
646 posted on 06/01/2003 5:10:53 AM PDT by daylate-dollarshort (http://www.strato.net/~cmranch)
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To: Velveeta
This post took very little time to find, but the site that it came from was questionable. Rather than condmn the reports out of hand, I checked their cites. I was able to find many of the articles cited and am trying to locate more. To verify the content of these assertions took a few hours and a little Visa help. I still have not verified all. However I was only trying to find "some" to counter the claim that there has neve been a Satanic Cult murder. In That I believe that I succeeded.

I have a number of stories like these from Europe, Australia, and Russia, these may prove more difficult to verify. Le Pais, Tass, a couple of South American news agencies, to name a few.

Two of articles I'm still trying to verify were reported locally and I remember the cases well, but nonetheless I haven't been able to find the articles. I remember the photographs of the "leader" of the cult who had shoulder length hair. When they gave him a jail buzz, (haircut) he had a "666" tatoo on the side of his head. I'd really like to find that photograph. By the way, he is now on Florida's death row.

I also have some additional articles from ABC News, Reuters, The Washington Post, and others that I have not posted to this thread.
647 posted on 06/01/2003 5:28:08 AM PDT by daylate-dollarshort (http://www.strato.net/~cmranch)
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To: Tapu
Thank you very much Tapu!! I do remember the West Memphis 3!! Good job in reminding me.

Below is the ABC News article about them. The photographs aren't still available from their website, but the article is still able to be uncovered.!

The article itself wants to attack the "Satanic Panic" but if a reasonable person reads the article, the article shows the effort by law enforcement to arrtrbute the killing to anythiing other than Satanism. The "scholars" would rather explain the Satanism aspect away rather than accept the statements given by the perpetrators.

I think the article provides enough information that the reader can make up his own mind---at least on this case.


Law Enforcement Struggles With Cult Crimes
Little Proof for 'Satanic Panic'


RELATED STORIES

Pearl Teens Face Trial
A Satanic Past
Son of Sam Interviews


U.S. NEWS added



E-mail ABCNEWS.com


“I don’t know what these kids in Pearl are yet, dabblers or semi-
organized, but it’s the same bottom line: people were killed.”
—Police officer Marcus Quinones





By Jackie Cooperman
ABCNEWS.com
Oct. 24
—A 16-year-old admirer of Adolf Hitler stabs his mother to death with a kitchen knife, shoots and kills two fellow students in a Mississippi high school, and belongs to a group that “hates the accursed god of Christianity.”

    Three teenage fans of Heavy Metal music and “white magic” are convicted of murdering and mutilating three eight-year-olds in Arkansas. Two New York teens are accused of murdering another student, gouging out his eyes and forcing him, in his final breaths, to swear allegiance to Satan. A Mexican drug-smuggling group offers 13 human sacrifices, hoping the murders will improve marijuana sales.
     Grisly crimes, to be sure, many of which have sent communities into what some have called a “satanic panic”—fear that an underground devil cult was operating in their midst, ready to steal their children. But experts caution that even when pentagrams, satanic texts or animal carcasses are found at crime scenes, psychosis, not satanism, is often to blame.
     “It’s so easy to blame the belief,” said Dr. J. Douglas Crowder, a forensic psychiatrist at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. “We want some abstract villain to attribute problems to, but if you have a psychopathic kid, the core problem is in the personality…rather than cultic systems or beliefs.”

Satanism in the Eye of the Beholder

Conflicting definitions of satanic and cult practices complicate the issue.
     “There are three kinds of satanism. There’s religious satanism. It’s a bonafide religion and they usually don’t present a problem,” said Dr. Herbert Nieburg, a psychologist specializing in adolescent satanism at the Four Winds Hospital in Katonah, New York.
     “The second group are the bad guys. They are criminal cultists. They can’t experience remorse and they commit crimes using Satanism as an excuse. Everyone else, about 90 percent, are adolescent satanic dabblers. They are disturbed, dysfunctional, disenfranchised people, mostly male, who do ritual borrowing.”
     The rituals, experts say, often include animal sacrifices, chants and praises of the occult, but rarely do they lead to violence.
     Investigators are faced with the challenge of distinguishing when belief in non-traditional and satanic religions is relevant to crimes.
     “It is easy to get caught up in these cases and begin to see ‘satanism’ everywhere,” special supervisory FBI agent Kenneth Lanning wrote in Satanic, Occult, Ritualistic Crime: A Law Enforcement Perspective. “Oversensitization to this perceived threat may cause an investigator to ‘see’ satanism in a crime when it is really not there.”
     Still, satanic beliefs can hold the key to some criminal cases.
     “It’s all about group dynamics,” said New York City police officer Marcus Quinones, an expert on cult and gang crimes. “You must define the characteristics of a destructive cult and a those of non-threatening cult. When psychological and physical coercion is used, then you may have a problem.”

Experts Call Students ‘Dabblers’

In Pearl, Miss., 16-year-old Luke Woodham is charged with stabbing his mother to death, then fatally shooting two girls at Pearl High School on Oct. 1. Six of Woodham’s friends, said to have joined Woodham in a cult called “the Kroth,” are charged with conspiracy in the deaths.
     Many experts said they suspected the students were “dabblers” in satanism before becoming more extreme.
     “Dabblers, or ‘the buffet,’ I call them, they take a little bit of this and a little bit of that. The dabbler is dangerous because he doesn’t have control,” Quinones said. “I don’t know what these kids in Pearl are yet, whether they’re dabblers or semi-organized, but it’s still the same bottom line: People were killed.”

‘Satanic Panic’ Skews Issue

Cult watchers cautioned against public panic, discounting theories that the violent adolescents were members of a larger group.
     “Some people have the theory that there’s a big nationwide organized cult, but police evidence does not support that theory,” said Carol Giambalvo, a director of the American Family Foundation, a cult education organization.
     “Young people can go manufacture an ad-hoc, do-it-yourself ideology but it doesn’t mean they have a hierarchy or deep, philosophical, well-developed beliefs, and calling them a cult adds nothing to our understanding,” said Jeffrey Victor, author of Satanic Panic: The Creation of a Contemporary Legend and a sociologist at the State University of New York, Jamestown.
     Prosecutors sometimes play upon community panic to gain quick convictions, say Joe Berlinger and Bruce Sinofsky, who produced Paradise Lost, a documentary about the murders of three eight-year-old boys in West Memphis, Ark. Police charged three teens with the crime and accused them of belonging to a satanic cult, but the filmmakers say the teenagers were wrongly convicted, blamed because they wore black and listened to Metallica music.
     “Clearly some kids are doing evil things and taking their inspiration from evil sources and we’re not downplaying that,” Berlinger said. “But what we are saying is you have to be very careful to jump to the cult conclusion.”

Substance Abuse Also a Factor
Often, adolescents drawn to satanic ideas also abuse drugs and alcohol, experts say.
     In 1984, two teens were charged with torturing another adolescent to death in what investigators initially called a “satanic killing” in Northport, Long Island. Later, the trial focused on the teens’ addiction to the drug LSD, with the defense calling hallucinogens “the devil in this case.” One of the accused hung himself while awaiting trial, and the other was acquitted.
     In Matamoros, Mexico, drug smugglers said they killed 13 people because they thought the human sacrifices would grant them divine protection for their marijuana ring. Religious experts said the group was observing a corrupted form of santeria, a blend of Roman Catholic and Yoruba beliefs which sanctions animal but not human sacrifices.
     Some experts predicted the satan-inspired incidents may eventually wane, but even if that’s true, many said, the seemingly endless horror stories point to a larger problem.
     “We’re horrified about kids killing kids,” said Berlinger, who has four children. “The bigger issue is why has our society gone this way? What is it about the current generation of kids that makes them so insensitive to violence?”

Did The Devil Make Them Do It?
woodham
Oct. 1997, Pearl, Miss.
Luke Woodham, 16, walked into Pearl High School and shot and killed two students while wounding seven others. Prior to the shooting incident, Woodham had stabbed his mother to death. Woodham has been indicted on murder charges, while six others in a group that called themselves "the Kroth" have been charged with murder conspiracy.
matamoros
May 1994, Matamoros, Mexico
The "godfather" and four fellow members of a cult were sentenced to more than 60 years in prison for the ritual murders of 13 people in 1989. The victims, according to authorities, were killed becauses the cult sought magical protection from the law and rival drug smugglers.
echols
March 1994, West Memphis, Ark.
Damien Echols, 19, and Charles Jason Baldwin, 16, were convicted on three counts of capital murder in the brutal slaying of three 8-year-olds, whose bodies were found nude and hog-tied in a drainage ditch. Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr., 18, also involved in the incident, was found guilty in a separate trial on one count of first-degree murder and two counts of second-degree murder.
666
June 1988, Sedalia, Mo.
Three teens, Theron Roland II, Ronald Clements and James Hardy, were sentenced to life in prison for the gruesome death of Steven Newberry, 19, whose body was found in an abandoned well with several squirrel and cat carcasses. The attack was attributed to drug use, a fascination with violent rock music and satanism.
kasso
June 1984, Northport, N.Y.
Ricky Kasso and James Troiano were accused of killing Gary Lauwers, 17, by gouging his eyes out and stabbing him 17 times during a three-hour torture session. At the end of the ordeal, Kasso and Troiano forced Lauwers to say, "I love you Satan." Police claimed Kasso and Troiano killed Lauwers in a dispute over stolen drugs. Kasso confessed to the murder and later hanged himself, while Troiano was acquitted of second-degree murder.

648 posted on 06/01/2003 5:48:49 AM PDT by daylate-dollarshort (http://www.strato.net/~cmranch)
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To: daylate-dollarshort
The "ticket to hell" was the price they would have to pay after death for the Devil making them into a successful band. They were not worshipping the Devil they were trying to use him.

Lyrics from the bands they emulated convinced them that this was possible. The sickos were trying to create a short cut to success in the music world. Had they been true satan worshippers they would have known that human sacrifice is not part of the program.

The fast buck, instant gratification, shortcuts to success...Greedists, if you will, who attempted to use the devil.

649 posted on 06/01/2003 6:05:44 AM PDT by RGSpincich
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To: oceanperch; A CA Guy
Darn to bad you are not female. I know a guy 38 fairly good looking and conservative who just cannot find a wife . He really wants to be married.

I'm convinced FR needs a dating service or a constantly active thread on this for members...

650 posted on 06/01/2003 6:55:26 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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