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Terror lists linked to gun checks
Federal Computer Week ^ | 5/29/03 | Sara Michael

Posted on 06/02/2003 5:06:44 AM PDT by snooker

Justice Department officials have linked terrorism watch lists to the system that performs background checks to clear gun purchasers, department officials said today.

"We have linked up various terrorist lists to be checked by the [National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)]" a senior Justice Department official said. "But the system is there for the Brady Law. It is used only for preventing prohibited persons [such as felons and illegal aliens] from purchasing firearms, but mere suspicion of criminal activity is not necessarily a prohibitive factor."

For that reason, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is working with the State Department to determine which lists can be legally linked to the FBI's National Crime Information Center index, which is used by the instant background check system.

"Where legally permissible, we have done or are taking steps to include it," the official continued. He could not elaborate on whether no-fly lists could be included in the index, but he did note that the Violent Gang Terrorist Organization File has been integrated.

Improved technology has sped up the process for running checks on gun buyers and increased the number of those immediately cleared or denied for purchase, according to an FBI report released May 29.

Changes to NICS allowed for a 91 percent immediate determination rate, resulting in a "cleared" or "denied" response while the dealer is still on the telephone -- a 20 percent increase from the beginning of 2001, according to the FBI's 2001/2002 operational report on NICS.

A senior Justice Department official said the FBI was responding to a June 2001 directive from Attorney General John Ashcroft, and that the goal was 90 percent. Reducing processing speed for the remaining 9 percent of gun buyers depends on improving the criminal records systems at the state and local level. In fiscal 2003 the department will be distributing $48 million to states under the National Criminal History Improvement Program.

"We know it will never be 100 percent because the state of criminal history records is just not there," the official said. "We're still working toward that goal, but this is a significant, significant improvement, if not an overwhelming improvement."

The FBI also added to NICS the capability of searching immigration status information. Six databases belonging to the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services have been added to the databases used for illegal alien inquiries. The process was automated in July 2002.

In August 2002, the E-Check system was implemented, allowing licensed gun sellers to perform NICS checks electronically. This option cuts down on call center costs and traffic and provides a more accurate search because the data is entered directly, the report stated.


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: background; banglist; gun
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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So what was it Lautenburg was talking about?

CBS = Constant Bull Shiiat

As you can tell the gun waiting period story by Lautenburg as fronted by CBS was just BS. Why couldn't 'the laut' have checked this out before going to CBS? Oh, he could. Gee that's funny I assumed from the CBS story we needed to do something, like install a waiting period or some such nonsense.

Note that even the immigration databases are linked in, as they should be.

They never stop trying.

1 posted on 06/02/2003 5:06:45 AM PDT by snooker
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To: snooker
Well, there is a sure fire way to stop terrorists from getting guns.

Don't let ANY citizen possess a gun.

Isn't that the dems plan anyway? This seems fit into making it happen.

2 posted on 06/02/2003 5:10:43 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: OXENinFLA
Well, there is a sure fire way to stop terrorists from getting guns.</dem think>

oops...

3 posted on 06/02/2003 5:11:39 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: OXENinFLA
"Well, there is a sure fire way to stop terrorists from getting guns. Don't let ANY citizen possess a gun."

Even THAT won't do the job. The "black market" in firearms will ALWAYS exist. If gun ownership is totally prohibited to law-abiding US citizens, criminals (and terrorists) will still have them--the necessary guns will be stolen from army bases, smuggled in along with bales of marijuana, or MADE FROM SCRATCH.

4 posted on 06/02/2003 5:17:58 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: OXENinFLA
Don't let ANY citizen possess a gun.

Of course there are two things that will happen when this occurs. 1) Constitutional Reset via 2nd Amend. and 2) people will import machineguns and RPG's .... there's no incentive not to have the most powerful weapons versus a simple pistol or something.

5 posted on 06/02/2003 5:35:04 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: *bang_list
Bang
6 posted on 06/02/2003 6:17:47 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Wonder Warthog; Centurion2000
Even THAT won't do the job. The "black market" in firearms will ALWAYS exist. If gun ownership is totally prohibited to law-abiding US citizens, criminals (and terrorists) will still have them--the necessary guns will be stolen from army bases, smuggled in along with bales of marijuana, or MADE FROM SCRATCH.

Of course there are two things that will happen when this occurs. 1) Constitutional Reset via 2nd Amend. and 2) people will import machineguns and RPG's .... there's no incentive not to have the most powerful weapons versus a simple pistol or something.

I guess I didn’t put the sarcasm tag on my lines. Don’t worry I completely believe in the 2nd. Amend. and the RKBA.

I still can’t figure out how the gov’t can put CONTROL on something that “SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED” upon.

7 posted on 06/02/2003 7:18:00 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: Joe Brower
Yo.
8 posted on 06/02/2003 7:24:52 AM PDT by demosthenes the elder (If *I* can afford $5/month to support FR: SO CAN YOU)
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To: Wonder Warthog
the necessary guns will be... MADE FROM SCRATCH

speaking as a machinist: you ain't wrong.

9 posted on 06/02/2003 7:26:30 AM PDT by demosthenes the elder (If *I* can afford $5/month to support FR: SO CAN YOU)
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To: OXENinFLA
"I guess I didn’t put the sarcasm tag on my lines. Don’t worry I completely believe in the 2nd. Amend. and the RKBA."

Heh! I figured you did---just pointing out the fatal logic flaw for the liberals/socialists from DU that might lurk here and who need to "be led by the nose" to the truth.

Of course, you know how liberals/socialists are--"you can lead'em to the truth, but you can't make'em THINK".

10 posted on 06/02/2003 7:35:51 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: demosthenes the elder
"..seaking as a machinist: you ain't wrong."

I know--being a bit of a "shade-tree" machinist myself. I recall a bit on the History Channel about this "modern mountain man"--who made his own guns from scratch (and I "do" mean from scratch--he smelted his own iron, blacksmithed his own barrels, made his own gunpowder, etc.). Now they were all black-powder flintlocks, but that was impressive as hell.

Also a bit of news film from Afghanistan about this REALLY CRUDE machine shop (about the most sophisticated machine tool had was a very old lathe)--turning out FULL-AUTO AK-47 clones.

11 posted on 06/02/2003 7:43:05 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: Wonder Warthog
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/915323/posts

Congressional Democrats on Gun Report (Launtenburg,Kennedy)Barf alert

I don't know if c-span still has the video working but if you can stand watching it it's worth it it shows how bad the dems want to take away citizens ability to own certain guns.

http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/fdrive/e052003_guns.rm
12 posted on 06/02/2003 7:44:06 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: Wonder Warthog
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/903687/posts

"We've had so many experiences where a criminal act suddenly erupted in a moment of outrage with a perfectly well-behaving citizen," Lautenberg charged. "The fact is that the gun availability changed this person into a criminal."

We have all been wrong, it’s not the person firing the gun, it’s the AVAILABILITY that caused the crime.

13 posted on 06/02/2003 7:49:14 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: Wonder Warthog
Also a bit of news film from Afghanistan about this REALLY CRUDE machine shop (about the most sophisticated machine tool had was a very old lathe)--turning out FULL-AUTO AK-47 clones.

Probably one of the *home factories* actually located in Darra, Peshawar. They turn out amazingly workable copies of most of the world's small arms, including a nicely-made copy of a Luger I picked up, and a drilled and filed by hand copy of the stamped WWII British Sten gun, turned out from a section of railroad rail. They both functioned just fine.

14 posted on 06/02/2003 7:52:30 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; Shooter 2.5; The Old Hoosier; xrp; ...
Thusly, a new link in the chain that someday will seek to bind us all is forged.


15 posted on 06/02/2003 8:16:43 AM PDT by Joe Brower ("The world is weary of statesmen whom democracy has degraded into politicians." -- Ben Desraeli)
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To: Joe Brower
thanks for the ping,,,,,,,
16 posted on 06/02/2003 8:25:58 AM PDT by TLBSHOW
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To: Joe Brower; .45MAN
Thanks for the ping.
17 posted on 06/02/2003 8:31:41 AM PDT by dansangel (America - love it, support it or LEAVE it!)
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To: snooker
" mere suspicion of criminal activity is not necessarily a prohibitive factor"

Yet.
18 posted on 06/02/2003 8:33:59 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Joe Brower
I'm glad I inherited or bought all the weapons I want or need before this craziness.
19 posted on 06/02/2003 9:32:22 AM PDT by SoDak
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To: Joe Brower
Thanks for the ping...

Thusly, a new link in the chain that someday will seek to bind us all is forged.

True, true...my question is, what happens when the whole chain is forged? (God forbid it does.)

20 posted on 06/02/2003 9:40:20 AM PDT by Andonius_99
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To: Joe Brower
Another reason to get a Concealed Carry Permit if your state provides those.
In Texas that's an instant approval.
21 posted on 06/02/2003 10:04:59 AM PDT by TexasCowboy (COB1)
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To: TexasCowboy
Yes, Florida makes that provision as well.

After living in the People's Republik of Kalifornistan for almost twenty years, it's a good kind of strange to now live in a state where the government exhibits a small bit of trust in it's citizenry.

22 posted on 06/02/2003 10:09:23 AM PDT by Joe Brower ("The world is weary of statesmen whom democracy has degraded into politicians." -- Ben Desraeli)
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To: Joe Brower
"Yes, Florida makes that provision as well."

Not in PA. Otherwise the law is one of the least restrictive, but everytime I buy a firearm, I have to go thru the Instant Check.

23 posted on 06/02/2003 11:11:48 AM PDT by Badray (Molon Labe!)
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To: Joe Brower

The greatest attempt to import AK-47s was by a Clinton donor who attended a White House coffee.

Among the guests at one of those coffees in February 1996 was Wang Jun, chair of Poly Technologies, which is owned and run by China's People's Liberation Army.

Per Congressman Doolittle:

Wang Jun, the director of a Chinese arms trading company under investigation for illegally shipping 2,000 fully automatic, Chinese-made AK-47's to the United States, a guest at the White House.

Per Carl Limbacher:

"Assault Weapons" for U.S.

But of all the decisions, waivers and export liberalizations executed on behalf of the Chinese by the Clinton White House, none rivals what the administration did for Wang Jun, the princeling chairman of China's state owned arms conglomerate, Poly Technologies. For years, China had been doing a land office business exporting to the U.S. semi-automatic rifles and ammo made by Poly and another arms manufacturer, Norinco. Reportedly, the gun trade was worth hundreds of millions of dollars annually to the PRC. But suddenly in 1994, there was a problem: the Clinton Assault Weapons Ban. Overnight, China's weapons cash cow evaporated.

Not to worry. According to a Scripps Howard report by Michael Hedges, which ran on the front page of the March 14, 1997 edition of the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, the Clinton administration granted Wang Jun's Poly Technologies importation permits to flood America with over 100,000 semi-automatic weapons and millions of rounds of ammunition -- despite the president's own cherished gun ban. That was on Feb. 2, 1996 -- just days before Clinton issued the first satellite waivers for Loral Corp.

It gets worse. On Feb. 6, just four days after the assault weapon waivers were issued, Wang Jun was ushered into the White House for a personal meeting with Bill Clinton. Wang's escort was Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie, who had laundered over $600,000 from Chinese sources for the Clinton Defense Fund. Combined with his campaign donations to the DNC, Trie's total contributions to Clinton coffers topped the million dollar mark in 1996. For that kind of money, it's a good bet Charlie Trie could bring anybody he wanted to the White House.

And Charlie Trie wasn't Wang's only solid White House reference. Charlie had worked with longtime F.O.B. Ernest Green to get Wang a U.S. visa, though Wang conveniently forgot to mention that he was a Communist arms dealer on the visa application. Had he disclosed that fact, Wang Jun would never have been let in the country, let alone the White House. The day after Wang's visit with Clinton, Ernie Green's wife donated $50,000 to the DNC.

Except for these import waivers, issued two years after Poly's rifles had been banned at the president's own direction, there would have been no legal U.S. market for Wang Jun's guns.

Michael Hedges interviewed lawyers involved in negotiating the deal, nearly all of whom were stunned when Poly Technologies got the exclusive approval. "All of a sudden there was a breakthrough. I can't account for it", said one attorney. Another admitted that the Clinton administration had been tying other arms importers in knots to keep guns out of the country because the president was opposed. He described the abrupt turnaround in U.S. import policy as "highly suspicious". And this was from a guy who was working to make this deal happen.

Last year, Hedges told me that his evidence included signed copies of the importation permits for Wang Jun's guns. Between the on-the-record interviews and the documentation, his expose was rock solid. Yet, despite the fact that the implications of his report were absolutely staggering, only one New York or Washington paper thought its readers were entitled to this news. Eleven days later, The New York Daily News followed up on the Wang Jun 100,000 gun story.

News Columnist Michael Daly managed to uncover the destination for Wang's 100,000 guns: a Detroit firm which investigators have linked to the Chinese Armed Police. The Chinese Armed Police used similar assault rifles to mow down demonstrators in Tiananmen Square in 1989.

The massive gun shipment would have gone through, flooding America's cities with weapons ruled inappropriate by the Clinton administration, but the deal was suspended in the wake of the aforementioned COSCO connected smuggling operation - which was short-circuited by federal agents just weeks after Wang Jun's importation waivers were granted. On the night of March 18, 1996, undercover Customs and BATF agents accepted delivery of guns smuggled aboard the COSCO ship Empress Phoenix, as part of an ongoing sting operation dubbed "Dragon Fire." The undercover agents had lured the Chinese into making a trial shipment of Chinese machine guns: a dry run set up to establish a working relationship before the Chinese granted access to their full inventory. Besides the smuggled guns, which they recommended for the California street gang market, the Chinese operatives explained that they were ready to sell everything from grenade launchers to shoulder fired Red Parakeet surface to air missiles, which they boasted could "take out a 747". (Coincidentally, a Boeing 747 was taken out over the skies of Long Island just months later.) That March night, federal agents secretly unpacked COSCO crates containing 2,000 Poly Technologies AK-47's delivered from the hold of the Empress Phoenix. It was the largest seizure of fully operational automatic weapons in the history of U. S. law enforcement.

With that claim to fame, one might expect the agents responsible for Operation Dragon Fire to be boasting of their unqualified success. However, as the BATF's Dick Stoltz and the Customs Bureau's Matthew King explained all of the above to Vanity Fair Magazine last December, they emphasized that Dragon Fire's goal was much larger. The real targets of their undercover investigation were Poly and Norinco lieutenants who controlled the deal from China and whom Stoltz and King had managed to lure to America for a brief visit. And they suspected Wang Jun's direct involvement. As King told Vanity Fair:

"Can you imagine the reactions or how Congress would have voted (on MFN for China) if we had been allowed to keep going? If we had arrested the Norinco officials who had come here to sell Red Parakeet missiles? If Dragon Fire had been able to nail the princelings? This country's China policy would be a hell of a lot different today."

So why, instead of stopping with the March 18th gun seizure, didn't they keep going? Stoltz and King had wanted to - but inexplicably, somehow word had leaked about Dragon Fire. First their office got a call from a Los Angeles Times reporter, who shocked them with his detailed knowledge of their supposedly still secret sting. This reporter's silence was purchased with the promise of an even bigger exclusive after the investigation had culminated in indictments of Chinese kingpins. Shortly thereafter, The New York Times called and had to be promised a similar deal to keep the investigation secret. But it was too late. After the second inquiry Stoltz and King realized that their own undercover agents were now in jeopardy. They had to act fast before the entire operation came unraveled. That's why Dragon Fire's ultimate prize turned out to be Chinese AK-47's rather than the Chinese operatives close to arms merchant, Wang Jun.

The mystery of the Dragon Fire leak has never been solved. But there are disturbing clues. Reporters for both the L.A. and New York Times worked in Washington, where the only people familiar with Dragon Fire were top government officials. According to Vanity Fair, the journalists involved would reveal only that their tips came from "diplomatic sources". And evidently these reporters weren't the only ones who got the word. Several of Wang Jun's top lieutenants hotfooted it back to China just one jump ahead of federal indictment. One was Robert Ma, chief of Poly Technologies' U.S. subsidiary, who fled just two days before his arrest warrant was executed.

Was a federal probe into a massive Chinese arms smuggling operation foiled by insiders who knew the investigation put Clinton's China connection at risk? Is it significant that leaks about an investigation run out of San Francisco came from a Washington source? If so, this would constitute a more blatant (though potentially less dangerous) national betrayal than even Clinton's Loral satellite waivers. If the Loral waivers damaged national security, as a still secret internal Pentagon study reportedly claims, then what national interest, pray tell, was served by sabotaging an investigation into Chinese gun smuggling? And just which Americans would have benefited when the White House tossed it's own gun control policy over the side to welcome in 100,000 outlawed Chinese guns?

Though the press has virtually ignored this aspect of the Clinton "China First" policy, House Government Reform and Oversight Chairman Dan Burton has not. Reached Friday on Sean Hannity's New York talk radio show, Burton told me:

"We continue to investigate the Wang Jun connection. Our concentration has been on the illegal campaign contributions and Wang Jun is one of the people that we've been looking into. Obviously if there was a quid pro quo where the president signed off on those guns coming into the country in exchange for campaign contributions, that's something that he should be held accountable for and we are looking into that."

Quid quo pro or not, this president needs to explain why his administration waived its own gun law for a Chinese princeling arms merchant whose lieutenants were intent on smuggling even more to firepower to American street gangs.

Published in the Jun, 1, 1998 issue of The Washington Weekly. Copyright 1998 The Washington Weekly (http://www.federal. com). Reposting permitted with this message intact.

Per Burton Committee:

On February 6, 1996, Wang Jun attended a coffee at the White House with President Clinton. Michael Weisskopf and Lena H. Sun, Trie Gained Entree for Chinese Official, Head of Weapons Firm Joined Small Gathering with Clinton, The Washington Post, December 20, 1996, at A-1. Mr. Wang is the head of the state-owned company, China International Trade and Investment Corp. ("CITIC"), a $21 billion conglomerate, and its subsidiary Poly Technologies. Id. Poly Technologies is the primary arms dealing company for the Chinese military. Id. Mr. Wang gained access to the coffee through Charles Yah Lin Trie, an old Arkansas friend of President Clinton and Democratic Party fund-raiser. Id. Again, Mr. McCurry had "no answer" as to why normal screening procedures were bypassed. Id. After the Wang visit came to public attention, President Clinton said he remembered "literally nothing" about the meeting, but he conceded that it was "clearly inappropriate." Susan Schmidt and Lena H. Sun, Clinton Calls Wang Meeting "Inappropriate," The Washington Post, December 21, 1996, at A-1.

24 posted on 06/02/2003 6:37:35 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: TexasCowboy

National Instant Check System and Conceal Carry Licenses are great ways to obtain lists of firearm owners in America.

I sometimes wonder who will be the one to use these lists for evil purposes.

25 posted on 06/02/2003 7:58:58 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: Wonder Warthog
I know--being a bit of a "shade-tree" machinist myself. I recall a bit on the History Channel about this "modern mountain man"--who made his own guns from scratch (and I "do" mean from scratch--he smelted his own iron, blacksmithed his own barrels, made his own gunpowder, etc.). Now they were all black-powder flintlocks, but that was impressive as hell.

I've quite a collection of Home Shop Machinist magazines, myself. I just wish I had a bigger lathe, but that old (WWII era) Atlas 8" works as well today as it did when new. Many of the tools that built the Arsenal of Democracy are still here, and still functional.

I believe the History Channel special was on a fellow named Herschel House. I've seen articles about the guy; he and his son both build faithful replicas of Kentucky rifles, Bowie knives and such. Do a Google search; I'm pretty sure the guy was involved in a series of home gunsmithing videotapes.

26 posted on 06/02/2003 8:21:34 PM PDT by Cloud William
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To: demosthenes the elder
speaking as a machinist: you ain't wrong.

In VietNam we saw one of just about everything that was ever made at least once. Two guns that impressed me at the time were a VietMihn made STEN gun and something called a Swedish K (never forgotten it was an yucky avacado green enamel finish; looked like it ought to be a kitchen appliance). Takes about two minutes to disassemble either one, which I did to see how they were made. That old STEN was obviously homemade and it didn't look like it would be very hard to duplicate it with really rudimentary tools. The K gun was quite similar in design, though smaller and much more highly machined. Either one could easily be made in any amatuer garage machine shop (maybe even with just plain old hand tools). The things didn't even have things like firing pins to worry about, just a bump on the front of the bolt. The sheer simplicity and deadliness of those things has stuck with me for over three decdes now.

If guns were ever actually outlawed, I think this is the type of gun we would begin seeing in abundance. Really lethal little submachine guns, not fancy rifles or handguns like people buy now.

27 posted on 06/02/2003 8:36:28 PM PDT by templar
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To: 2nd_Amendment_Defender
"I sometimes wonder who will be the one to use these lists for evil purposes."

There will be a push to confiscate all guns someday - maybe not in our lifetimes, but certainly in our kid's lifetimes.

28 posted on 06/02/2003 8:45:33 PM PDT by TexasCowboy (COB1)
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To: templar
"If guns were ever actually outlawed, I think this is the type of gun we would begin seeing..."

Good thought.
I agree.

29 posted on 06/02/2003 8:48:05 PM PDT by TexasCowboy (COB1)
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To: snooker
I always refer to CBS News as the 'Completely BS News' anchored by Ida Rather Not Tell The Truth. Ida is Dan Rather's identical twin sister.
30 posted on 06/02/2003 9:01:53 PM PDT by punster
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To: Wonder Warthog
Pakistan has a (ahem) lively trade of home-built/cottage-industry replica weapons - and the quality can be quite high, especially for copies of the AK family and older semiauto pistols and revolvers.
People think huge factories are required for production of firearms. They are wrong. Given a supply of barstock, all that is really required is fire, a drill, and some hand files (to produce a moderately decent handgun). TRUST ME (taking 5th on further details)
Making shell casings in useful quantities to regular specs is what requires a factory.
31 posted on 06/02/2003 9:04:27 PM PDT by demosthenes the elder (If *I* can afford $5/month to support FR: SO CAN YOU)
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To: templar
never underestimate what can be done with sheet metal, a hacksaw, and some files.
32 posted on 06/02/2003 9:05:54 PM PDT by demosthenes the elder (If *I* can afford $5/month to support FR: SO CAN YOU)
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To: Cloud William
long-term goal (well, mid-range) is to work up enough scratch for a Cincinnati HydraShift 6' bed lathe and a Bridgeport vertical mill with servo and DRO retrofits.
A surface-grinder would be nice, too, but not required.
33 posted on 06/02/2003 9:08:50 PM PDT by demosthenes the elder (If *I* can afford $5/month to support FR: SO CAN YOU)
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To: templar
something called a Swedish K

Like the shown at LZ Xray ? BTW, that's Joe Galloway, co-author of "We Were Soldiers Once and Young" just prior to the battl that is the primary focus of the book and the Mel Gibson movie based upon it.

34 posted on 06/03/2003 12:07:07 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: demosthenes the elder
Making shell casings in useful quantities to regular specs is what requires a factory.

Not to mention powder and primers, once your stash of them runs out. Those are even harder than catridge "brass".

35 posted on 06/03/2003 12:13:42 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: El Gato
Like the shown at LZ Xray ?

Yep, that's it. Except the one we had was a sort of avacado green baked enamel finish. Looked like maybe it was painted with some left over kitchen stove paint.

I did get to fire the thng a few times. A really great little 9mm subgun. It's one of the reasons I wonder why all the LE people seem to like those big clunky, heavy MP5's and such. I wonder it the K gun is still made or just a relic of earlier times?

36 posted on 06/03/2003 5:32:54 AM PDT by templar
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To: demosthenes the elder
Given a supply of barstock, all that is really required is fire, a drill, and some hand files (to produce a moderately decent handgun). TRUST ME (taking 5th on further details)

Unless you're in Califonia or some other foreign country you shouldn't need the 5th. Gun laws are ICC laws and it's perfectly legal for you to manufacture anything you can legally own, for your personal posession (no machine guns, post ban configurations(I think) etc. are allowed. Just what can be currently manufactured by a licensed maker). No paperwork needed, no registration required (as long as you dont want to sell or give it to someone). You can not take them across State lines or transfer them to another person. When you die, they cannot be a part of your estate without BATF licensing and serial numbering. Some State laws may impose restrictions.

37 posted on 06/03/2003 5:49:16 AM PDT by templar
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To: OXENinFLA
"I still can't figure out how the gov't can put CONTROL on something that "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" upon."

It's actually quite simple; we, the people LET the gov't put CONTROL on something that "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" upon.

Freedom is expensive. Someone, or many someones, will have to risk their life/lives by presenting the deadly danger of infringing upon citizen's rights to the identified individual representatives of gun banning. If an unorganized(meaning not acknowledging each others existance) group of willing citizens were to activate a series of snipings at gungrabber politicians, like a copycat assassination series, the investigations would not lead to any organization, just come to the conclusion that it is extremely dangerous to continue the agenda of disarming American citizens.

The only alternative I see to this unconnected revolution is all out revolution, in which many more people will pay the ultimate price, even those not involved, as citizens militia attack government edifices. And how far must the gov't go to provoke that? Who will be willing to be the organizer of something that big, at the risk of assassination by gov't agents, or at least exposure, arrest, trial, conviction, and maybe the death sentence?
38 posted on 06/03/2003 7:04:31 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: Blue Collar Christian
The only alternative I see to this unconnected revolution is all out revolution, in which many more people will pay the ultimate price, even those not involved, as citizens militia attack government edifices. And how far must the gov't go to provoke that? Who will be willing to be the organizer of something that big, at the risk of assassination by gov't agents, or at least exposure, arrest, trial, conviction, and maybe the death sentence?

Quite a pickle.

And I wonder how many rifles are STILL being looked at due to the DC sniper case?

39 posted on 06/03/2003 7:07:33 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: SoDak
"I'm glad I inherited or bought all the weapons I want or need before this craziness."

How selfless.
40 posted on 06/03/2003 7:09:36 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: OXENinFLA
"And I wonder how many rifles are STILL being looked at due to the DC sniper case?"

Use 'em or loose 'em. Can we continue to allow that kind of criminal frenzie to have our weapons outlawed (come on, an AR-15 clone? My $100 bolt action Mauser 8mm can shoot amazingly accurate 300+ yard shots with iron sights!)and confiscated, then that "evidence" convicting one weapon type being used to link any weapon to the same crime of "availability"?
41 posted on 06/03/2003 7:22:08 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: Blue Collar Christian
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/903687/posts

"We've had so many experiences where a criminal act suddenly erupted in a moment of outrage with a perfectly well-behaving citizen," Lautenberg charged. "The fact is that the gun availability changed this person into a criminal."


42 posted on 06/03/2003 7:26:27 AM PDT by OXENinFLA
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To: PhilDragoo
All this, and we have to hear on the news how Slick Willie wants to eliminate term limits for presidents so he, or his partner/wife/whatever could stay in the White House for decades. A candidate for the unorganized sniper ring? Can't get together to draw straws, must be first come, first served.
43 posted on 06/03/2003 7:29:53 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: templar
You do know that our lathes, grinders and drill PRESSES will be outlawed too. There goes freedom of the PRESS.
44 posted on 06/03/2003 7:33:49 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: TexasCowboy
"There will be a push to confiscate all guns someday - maybe not in our lifetimes, but certainly in our kid's lifetimes."

OK Texas Cowboy,are you going to let that be, or are you going to leave a free country for your children's children?
45 posted on 06/03/2003 7:37:03 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: OXENinFLA
That is the very comment I was refering to when I wrote crime of "availability".
46 posted on 06/03/2003 7:45:49 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: Blue Collar Christian
My statement doesn't mean I won't still fight the craziness of these people. I'm merely grateful to have been in a good position.
47 posted on 06/03/2003 8:15:35 AM PDT by SoDak
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To: Blue Collar Christian
"OK Texas Cowboy,are you going to let that be,"

I started shooting with my boys at a very young age.
They both love guns almost as much as I do.
The grandsons have continued the same tradition.
They all understand the concept of, "from my cold, dead fingers".
I said that there would be a push. I didn't say it would succeed.

48 posted on 06/03/2003 8:19:44 AM PDT by TexasCowboy (COB1)
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To: TexasCowboy; SoDak
I'm surely glad to see your support for gun rights. I mean that.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammo.

Sadly, my own son, who is a naturally good shot with rifles, shotguns and handguns, could care less to go shooting. He is developing a keen conservative political perspective though. Maybe he'll pick up the outdoorsman bug one day.
49 posted on 06/03/2003 8:25:18 AM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (If he's a cowboy, then I like cowboys. ><>)
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To: Blue Collar Christian
As long as he has the right to. Myself, I was Davy Crockett in HS, and wanted to move to Alaska and become a trapper professionally. Somehow, I ended up a SysAdmin instead.
50 posted on 06/03/2003 12:41:00 PM PDT by SoDak
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