Photograph take from the Hadenuf Observatory, using a 10" Schmidt Cassegrain, catadioptric computerized telescope, eyepiece projection, w/ tele-extender, film format with Kodak 400 at 1 second exposure. Out of focus a little, but working on it.
Posted on 06/04/2003 1:05:01 PM PDT by bedolido
Edited on 04/13/2004 1:40:43 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Forget the next Star Wars movie. The real space sequel guaranteed to capture public attention, astronomers say, is the discovery of another planet like Earth in our own starry neighborhood -- and it is likely to happen within a decade.
(Excerpt) Read more at usatoday.com ...
Photograph take from the Hadenuf Observatory, using a 10" Schmidt Cassegrain, catadioptric computerized telescope, eyepiece projection, w/ tele-extender, film format with Kodak 400 at 1 second exposure. Out of focus a little, but working on it.
what if, what if, what if.. All we know is that at least one (but probably more) what ifs apply, assuming 'they' are out there, which they probably are..
They'd be really sadistic bustards to keep allowing us to elect Clintons, and Ted Kennedy. Perhaps they use us for comic relief.
Practical for whom? For ourselves eventually, maybe. What about, is it desirable given non-infinite resources and other competing desires? Assuming no general reversion to barbarism (not a sure bet), I think we will eventually conquer the solar system. Beyond that is a helluva big leap and would require the whole human race to cooperate with a religious or quasi-religious devotion requiring unprecidented self denial.
That is barring the discovery of cheap interstellar teleportation requiring a complete overhaul of the laws of physics or some similar plot device :)
Suppose somewhere out there are a species fully our equals or superiors intellectually who happen to be marine invertibrates. Would they even ever know there is an "out there"?
I'll take that bet. But with your attitude and closed mind, even if they discovered one, you probably wouldn't believe it.
What a load of hooey. I stopped reading after that sentence.
There is always the Martha Stewart thread....
Exactly! That's what the Fermi Paradox argument says - there are no other civilizations in the galaxy.
Secondly, you again assume not only that other species would have personality characteristics conducive to interstellar expansion, but also that interstellar travel, migration, colonization, and communication are all relatively plausible, effortless, and attractive.
I'm not assuming anything, I'm trying to reason it out. Read my post #32, penultimate paragraph, again for why I think your argument about other technological civilizations not colonizing the galaxy is wrong.
Secondly, you're lumping things together to make it sound more impressive, but in reality interstellar travel implies migration, colonization and communication. There's really only one bone of contention - is interstellar travel possible?
I never said they were plausible, effortless or attractive. The only one of those three conditions we can comment on with any certainty is "effortless" - certainly, it won't be!
They said earth size, earth like planet. They didn't say with people and freeways. A planet with life, and even civilizations is very possible. Just because we here on the tiny planet earth have not yet discovered it, does not mean it isn't so.
Exactly! That's what the Fermi Paradox argument says - there are no other civilizations in the galaxy.
I don't care what some guy on tiny planet earth says, he like everyone else, has not a clue if life actually exists in our galaxy or beyond. Not a clue. No one on this planet knows this. They can speculate, but that is all they are doing.
Actually, Fermi did have a "clue", which is that we don't see any evidence of other advanced civilizations in our galaxy. Fermi wasn't concerned with bacteria - you want the Drake Equation, see earlier posts. I actually think life will be widespread - but nothing much more advanced than an amoeba. I don't have the stats to hand, but I'm pretty sure that life on earth consisted of single cell organisms for 90% of the time.
Actually, it doesn't say that. It asks why we don't see them here [on earth] now. There ought to be a lot of traffic, coming and going, it would be obvious. It also implies that we don't know what to look for.
Me am Bizarro!
-PJ
I understand, but for all he knows, there could be planets out there teaming with two headed baboons or human like creatures that have no desire to build a space craft and travel to the stars, or a race of creatures with little intelligence, (like those in DC) or maybe these creatures life span is only 10 years, and they don't have the mental ability for space travel, or it's taboo or they just don't have the natural resources to build a craft etc... Hehehe.
I for one, believe that there is probably a whole lot of life, right within our very own Milky Way galaxy. We just don't know what is going on the other side of the galaxy, say 80,000 light years aways, on the surface of some small planet. Not yet anyway.
I am arguing that there may be currently few, not that there have been none, ever.
I'm not assuming anything, I'm trying to reason it out. Read my post #32, penultimate paragraph, again for why I think your argument about other technological civilizations not colonizing the galaxy is wrong.
Read my responses for why I think that your argument (the Fermi Paradox) is a reductive fallacy.
Secondly, you're lumping things together to make it sound more impressive, but in reality interstellar travel implies migration, colonization and communication. There's really only one bone of contention - is interstellar travel possible?
The Fermi Paradox reduces the variables to nothing more than:
If other civilizations arise, then at least one is likely to initiate exponential expansion. We do not see evidence of exponential expansion, therefore other civilizations do not arise.
To be clearer, the Fermi Paradox makes several problematic statements:
1) Once primitive life has emerged on a planet, it is likely to evolve into lifeforms with technological society.
2) If a civilization reaches a level of technological advancement equivalent to our own, it is likely to develop interstellar flight.
3) When it develops interstellar flight, a low-cost colonization process will be practical.
4) When interstellar colonization becomes practical, there is significant probability that the civilization will choose to do so.
5) If such a colonization wave crossed or had crossed the path of Earth, we would notice.
I never said they were plausible, effortless or attractive. The only one of those three conditions we can comment on with any certainty is "effortless" - certainly, it won't be!
In that case, so far as I can interpret, your conclusion - there are no other civilizations in the galaxy - does not follow from your premises. Well, it doesn't follow, in any event, because of inherent problems with the Fermi Paradox (itself a declaration of faith, not of rational judgment). Your premises just make it all the less likely that it follows..
Most are either in hiding or were destroyed in war. The universe is likely a very bad neighborhood and advanced life learns to not advertise their existence. Food searching is not enough evolutionary pressure to develop advanced intelligence, it requires the discovery of war, which is the catalyst for the next level of evolution to occur. Intelligent life and a war making disposition go hand in hand. We may find intelligent life out there someday, but they will probably kill us.
ROFL!!
I like this one. As earth just had a close call by a rather large 100 meter diameter asteroid, that they never really saw coming. A space craft could *easily* go undected.
June 19, 2002 | On June 17th, astronomers from the Lincoln Laboratory Near Earth Asteroid Research project (LINEAR) discovered a new Earth-crossing asteroid. Designated 2002 MN, the object is approximately 100 meters across and flew by us on June 14th. What is most shocking is just how close it came to Earth. This is only the sixth known asteroid to penetrate the Moon's orbit, and by far the biggest. According to Brian G. Marsden (Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics), the object came within 120,000 kilometers (0.0008 astronomical unit) of impacting Earth. A disturbing detail is that 2002 MN was discovered three days after its closest approach. Though we are almost certainly out of harm's way from this near Earth object (no potential impacts are forecast until at least 2050), its late detection may be telling. Currently there is no dedicated Southern Hemisphere NEO search program, and NASA is currently focused on finding bodies greater than 1 kilometer across.
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