Small plane crashes into apt. bldg in Los Angeles /Hollywood (06/06/2003 )

KABC 7 Los Angeles | KABC 7 Los Angeles

[HairOfTheDog]

We are talking a few minutes flight time.... 6 miles. Hardly "way out of the way" no matter where he was going, and we don't even know for sure where he was going. The only quote that said he was going to San Diego also had other errors in it about contacting San Diego tower, which he definately would not have been told to do at that time. They were confused. The crash location is about under the number "140" directly above the words "Century City" on the aeronautical chart. Look at that in relation to the controlled airspace for LAX as described in that post. Even if he were going to San Diego, he is not that far away from LAX... he would be able to see it. And many would give it a wide berth.

[HairOfTheDog]

Cool lore....

[FairOpinion]

The crash location is about under the number "140" directly above the words "Century City".

The crash site is at least another 5 miles NE from Century City, in Hollywood, with beverly Hills in Between.

[Orion78]

[FairOpinion]

The crash site is at least another 5 miles NE from Century City, in Hollywood, with Beverly Hills in between

adding... on your map it roughly half way between Century City and Griffith Park, probably closer to GP.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

...Me not a Flyer, but...

...WHY was this Bonanza Airplane we see on this Video in what looks to me like a very high speed dive...?

...And WHY was its engine rev'ing at such a Full Throttle that it was just a'screaming at the bit..?

...I know this incident is being handled as an accident and has for the time being just been turned over to the MTSB for Investigation.

...I'm simply asking questions about what I see about the Bonanza Airplane's last moments that appear similiar in part to 2 of Sept. 11th's Hi-jacked Jetliners.

[HairOfTheDog]

I thought the reports said he was 6.5 miles from the airport. But it doesn't matter, it is another couple minutes out of the way... out of the way of where? We don't know for sure where he was going, and the San Diego report could be wrong, and he could have wanted to stay out of the 2,000 to 3,000 foot maximum altitude airspace. That is not very high over a populated area with landmark buildings that are in the 600-700, and some in the 1000 foot range. I might have gone east till I was out of the city and then turned South... I might have wanted to fly over and see my house from the air, who knows?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Are you purposely muddying the waters or are you just up past your bedtime?

Within one hour of the crash the FAA spokesman reported on television that the pilot had been instructed to contact San Diego seven minutes after take-off.

That statement was no "mistake;" no "error."

But with a few more posts like yours, this fact may well fall into the Memory Hole.

Is that your objective?

[bootless]

OK, I started cleaning when I should have gone to sleep, but I've gotta jump back in here.

I don't think you should include HairoftheDog in your chastisement ... she is a CFI and has been nothing but factual and reasonable in her postings.

Ronnie: the nosedive can occur after a stall (of the wing) occurs, the pilot tries to pull up (thereby deepening the stall), finally resulting in a severe pitch-down attitude. Hence, the nosedive.

Or there may be been a runaway trim problem, or a medical emergency, resulting in the pilot slumped, and pinning, the yoke full forward. Ergo, nosedive.

The engine will go full-bore if it is not reduced after takeoff. If the pilot was climbing, he would still have 75% or more power in. If he's in a dive, the props would overspeed, and the prop tips will often go supersonic.

Nothing mysterious there. Just physics.

[FairOpinion]

I live in LA. Maybe the reports meant 6.5 miles from the Santa Monica Airport, from where he took off. That would be about right.

I haven't seen the San Diego destination in any articles, nor mentioned on TV. I think I read he didn't file a flight plan, so he could have been going anywhere.

The question that we may or may not get the answer to was whether it was really an accident, or deliberate.

In some articles I read that some people in the area said it sounded like the plane was circling around several times before the crash. I should have bookmarked them.

[HairOfTheDog]

...WHY was this Bonanza Airplane we see on this Video in what looks to me like a very high speed dive...?

You are not the only one who wants to know that.

The engine was not speeding him along much more than gravity already was. If he stalled it for whatever reason, he should have corrected the attitude first and then applied full power. Do that in the wrong order, and he might crash just as he did.

The only thing that is concretely similar between this incident and Sept 11 is that there were airplanes and buildings. Those guys on Sept 11 flew airplanes very much under control, horizontally into buildings. Today we saw an airplane falling out of the sky under no control at all.

Either he lost control of it on purpose, or not on purpose, but that building was very likely only victim of the odds on where in particular it came down. He was no longer in control of it any more than you can guide your car once it goes off a cliff. He was a falling object.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yeah - I saw those, they are copy/pasted on this thread, along with some other eywitness reports that didn't make a lot of sense.

[Orion78]

"A single-engine Bonanza BE-35 departed Santa Monica at 3:45 p.m. Seven minutes later the Santa Monica tower gave its pilot a frequency change to contact the Southern California Terminal Radar Approach Control facility for flight guidance. "They never contacted TRACON," Walker said."
Source: Post#150

Doesn't SOCAL TRACON handle traffic in San Deigo?

[FairOpinion]

I read a number of articles, and none mentioned San Diego.

I believe that the FAA spokesman said that, but he may have been mistaken. Why would they tell him to contact San Diego 100 miles away, when he is flying over LA?

[FairOpinion]

I think once they will identify the pilot, that will shed more light on whether accident or possible terrorism.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

...T'is Apples and Oranges.

...I simply need an explanation for what I see in the Video and directly on KCAL-TV.

...There WAS a last second Bonanza Airplane Attitude adjustment seen.

...The plane looked for all the world to me on TV like the bombing Airstrikes on Enemy Ground positions I personally saw in Vietnam.

...This Bonanza went into that Apartment Building in a Power Dive remenscient of the close-in bombing runs of our small supporting Jet Fighter-bombers.

[HairOfTheDog]

He was instructed to switch to SOCAL enroute traffic control, which might be located in San Diego (I don't know and it doesn matter) but that is not San Diego Tower. We have explained in multiple posts what the rules are regarding enroute flight following and VFR flight rules.

[Pro-Bush]

Good Dr., May I ask your credentials regarding flying in SoCal? Forgive me if you are a pilot, I have no idea. I inquired myself and was quite satisfied with their replies, being pilots and all. Not to rule anything out..of course. No muddy waters here.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

My "chastisement" was only addressed to Hairofthedog since that poster twice speculated that the "San Diego" remark was incorrect.

The San Diego remark was correct; has been offered by many posters and many sources; and is on video tape.

So you have now seen something that was not "factual" in her postings.

As you said, you probably should have gone to sleep.

[Orion78]

SOCAL provides services for San Deigo. See Post#238

[HairOfTheDog]

The only print reports I have seen don't mention San Diego tower, but can only be talking about switching from Santa Monica Tower to SOCAL Approach, the rules are explained in a number of my posts, and quite clearly here by bootless:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/924606/posts?page=343#343

[Dr. Eckleburg]

CBS and ABC Los Angeles reported the San Diego remark this evening, in addition to the FAA guy this afternoon.

It's one thing to say the report could be a mistake.

It's another to say categorically that the report was never made.

One has to question motives at that point.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

...Great Explanation, thanks for that. I look forward to the Investigation results will anticipation. I still have questions about the Bonanza Airplane's last second Attitude Adjustment, though.

...I wonder how a plane that was OK just 7 mintes after takeoff from Santa Monica could all of a sudden find itself stalling out...

...and then be seen speeding to Earth at such a high rate of speed..?

...It looked to me like it was more than just Gravity that was pulling this Bonanza Airplane down..?

[HairOfTheDog]

SOCAL is the enroute Center that handles the LA area as well, as noted on the chart. Centers provide enroute control services for a large region. They are not the guys controlling traffic for each airport.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

...Still...

...one man's "NUTS"..

...can be another man's...

...search for CLARITY..?

[Orion78]

Gotcha, I missed your Post#343 as well. Thanks for the info.

[FairOpinion]

I looked it up and apparently So Calif TRACOM is indeed in San Diego, but has responsibility for several major So. Calif airports:

The Southern California TRACON provides radar air traffic control services to all arriving and departing aircraft for the following major airports in Southern California: Los Angeles, San Diego, Burbank, Ontario, Long Beach, and John Wayne. Their airspace covers an area between Burbank and San Bernardino to the north (these are just N of LA) and the US/Mexican border to the south below 13000 feet.

[HairOfTheDog]

Is that your objective?

I don't have an 'objective' except to clarify how airplanes behave, and help translate what I know of aviation into what non-aviation reporters and eyewitnesses might say about what they see. The report of the communications was just one example where all three of the pilots here confirmed what the procedure would have really been when a reporters words were incorrect.

I don't have any idea whether that pilot wanted to die today or not.

[FairOpinion]

I never said that people made up the San Diego Report, it just that it didn't seem plausible.

But in any case, I think both the San Diego remark and the So Cal TRACON remark can be true, because I looked it up and So Cal TRACON is located in San Diego, but has responsiblity for So. CA, see my post 428.

So everyone is right. I think the reports dropped the reference to San Diego to avoid confusion, because that would give the impression that he was headed to San Diego, when in fact they just wanted him to contact the Termainal Radar Approach Aircontrollers.

He may have been headed to the San Bernadino Airport further east, for all we know, and that would still have been controlled by the So. Calif TRACON, LOCATED in San Diego.

[Orion78]

As you said, you probably should have gone to sleep.

Speaking of sleep... I need to get some. It's been fun. Goodnight.

[HairOfTheDog]

....when in fact they just wanted him to contact the Termainal Radar Approach Aircontrollers.

Right... and there is an important distinction here in what Santa Monica Tower would say when he left their airspace, because some of the reports implied he did not make a required contact and that he was 'out of communication'.

What the tower will do when leaving their airspace is give you the frequency for the enroute authority governing the airspace you are moving into, and tell you it is OK to change frequencies to that center. Under VFR, he was not required, while enroute and not in any other controlled airspace, to get flight following or even switch to that frequency. He is on his own and not required to be in contact with anyone, so it would be wrong for anyone to imply he was remiss, lost or wicked for not staying in contact.

And if I am not mistaken, he crashed 3 minutes later, so he may not have had any time to be tuning the radio and checking in with anyone if he was up to his ears in problems of unknown kind.

[HairOfTheDog]

Thanks bootless :~) Good night.

[BagCamAddict]

Within one hour of the crash the FAA spokesman reported on television that the pilot had been instructed to contact San Diego seven minutes after take-off.

Others have answered this already, but I will add this:

There are SEVERAL posts which answer this question earlier in the thread.

However, those posts are written by pilots, who are definitely talking in "pilot speak" that is not exactly crystal clear to non-pilots (such as myself).

The bottom line of what they are saying (and I hope they correct me if I am stating this wrong) is that the pilot was contacted and given the frequency to which he could switch to IF HE WANTED to contact his next control station. He is NOT REQUIRED, nor did the article say he was required, to contact that next control station when he is flying VFR (visually as opposed to on instruments).

So yes, he was given the new frequency. No, he never contacted the new frequency. This is neither uncommon nor unlawful. In and of itself, it means relatively little in the context of the story.

(To the pilots who wrote those earlier posts: I hope I interpreted what you said correctly!)

[HairOfTheDog]

So yes, he was given the new frequency. No, he never contacted the new frequency. This is neither uncommon nor unlawful. In and of itself, it means relatively little in the context of the story.

I am now past any reasonable bed-time, but it is too hot to sleep. Yes you got it exactly right...

In a very metaphorical sense it is like being given the phone number by a person you meet in a bar. You may call it, you may have no intention of calling it, you just thank them politely and say goodnight. ;~D

[snopercod]

Nothing much of interest on AVSIG. One person watched "the video" which apparently was shown on TV, and suggested the VFR aircraft had to climb up into the clouds to avoid the mountains and lost spacial orientation.

The other interesting thing is that the FBI is investigating, not the NTSB. (I am becoming more and more concerned with Ascroft's little power play.)

Oh yes, you were right. The pilot didn't file a flight plan. Need we say more?

I think Michelle flew out of SMO, didn't she? (Not a Bonanza, though, I think.)

[BagCamAddict]

Latest tidbits:

A small plane crashed into a three-story apartment building near Hollywood, setting the structure ablaze, killing at least two people and injuring seven others on the ground.

Authorities said the Friday crash was believed to be an accident.

Battalion Chief Daren Palacios, said it might take up to two days to determine if other people were buried in the debris. The Fire Department had not immediately compiled a tenant list and couldn't say late Friday whether everyone was accounted for.

"There's no indication from tower that there were any problems," Cornejo said.

The Bonanza pilot did not file a flight plan and was operating on visual flight rules, he said. He did not have any other information about that plane, including how many people were aboard.

Cornejo said no flight recorder was found in the wreckage and that investigators have not determined who owns it.

Police initially responded with counterterrorism, hazardous materials and bomb squad units, but after a preliminary investigation determined the crash was an accident and turned it over to the National Transportation Safety Board, said Assistant Police Chief Jim McDonnell.

"This was not a terrorist incident," said Councilman Jack Weiss, whose district encompasses the crash site.

[justlurking]

Cornejo said no flight recorder was found in the wreckage and that investigators have not determined who owns it.

The tower would have noted the tail number. The tail number will identify the owner.

Of course, it wasn't necessarily the owner in the cockpit.

[dogbyte12]

Ok... now it's been another 9 hours.

Still no word on the pilot. With accidents like these, the reporters usually state that the person has been identified, and their name is being witheld pendifying notification of kin. Haven't got that regular disclaimer up.

This most likely is an accident, but I am baffled why the NTSB was waived off for the FBI, and there has been no positive ID leaked to the press. Not the name, just the fact that the person is known, and they will tell the press once the family is notified. Just checked all the wires, and there is nothing yet on background yet about the pilot, 15 hours after the crash.

[jrlc]

Too bad the plane didn't crash into the TV set of the NBC show "THE LEFT WING" -- especially when Martin Sheen was "acting."

[pitinkie]

THANKS!

[All_The_Info]

"This was not a terrorist incident," said Councilman Jack Weiss, whose district encompasses the crash site.

Well then, release the name of the dude then.

[sheik yerbouty]

The FBI has declared the area as a crime scene. Hmmmm..

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Sharon Apartments.

Yes, I heard that, too.

[DaughterofEve]

You make a sad, yet excellent point.

Thanks for responding. I can't tell you how true it was. I can remember listening to the radio as I got ready the morning before (not of, at least that's what my memory tells me) thinking, gee, not much to report on lately. No one will need to remind me not to think that again. Of course, great news is always welcome. (sigh back in return!)

[bootless]

Under VFR, he was not required, while enroute and not in any other controlled airspace, to get flight following or even switch to that frequency. He is on his own and not required to be in contact with anyone, so it would be wrong for anyone to imply he was remiss, lost or wicked for not staying in contact.

OK, I'm awake again! Another possibility here (which I've used in the wide open spaces of the midwest) is to get the freq change from the tower, a monitor it, but not check in. He may have wished to just listen to the goings-on, but not be in the system. In a congested area that a pilot is familiar with, I can see that.

[bootless]

Thanks! Yes, Michelle is out of SMO ... I spoke with her last night (later on), and she said she'd contact me when the pilot/plane is ID'd. She usually flies a 210 or a bizjet.

Thanks for the update - CI$ is driving me NUTZ!

The FBI, huh? Is this a one-size-fits-all send-out?

Well, if anything else shows up there, could you let me know? Thanks!!