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The Dark Ages: Were They Darker Than We Imagined?
The Universe ^ | 9-1999 | Greg Bryant

Posted on 06/08/2003 10:31:29 PM PDT by blam

The Dark Ages : Were They Darker Than We Imagined?

By Greg Bryant
Published in the September 1999 issue of Universe

As we approach the end of the Second Millennium, a review of ancient history is not what you would normally expect to read in the pages of Universe. Indeed, except for reflecting on the AD 837 apparition of Halley's Comet (when it should have been as bright as Venus and would have moved through 60 degrees of sky in one day as it passed just 0.03 AU from Earth - three times closer than Hyakutake in 1996), you may well wonder what we could learn from any astronomical events that occurred more than a thousand years ago. Any history text will say that the Dark Ages refers to the period after the fall of the Roman Empire in the middle of the 1st Millennium (it was not sponsored by the International Dark Sky Association). It was a time when European civilisation stagnated - even that term is a generous description of the living standards and social setting of the next few centuries. In a broader sense, however, "Dark Ages" can be applied to a few eras of social upheaval over the last several thousand years, which fits in nicely with what you're about to read - stay with me, as the possible astronomical implications will soon become apparent.

Physical Aspects Of The Dark Ages

Let's first look at the onset of "the" Dark Ages in the sixth century AD. The Roman Empire was finished, nothing was happening in the sciences, and worse was happening in nature. The Italian historian Flavius Cassiodorus wrote about conditions that he experienced during the year AD 536 :

"The Sun...seems to have lost its wonted light, and appears of a bluish colour. We marvel to see no shadows of our bodies at noon, to feel the mighty vigour of the Sun's heat wasted into feebleness, and the phenomena which accompany an eclipse prolonged through almost a whole year. We have had a summer without heat. The crops have been chilled by north winds, [and] the rain is denied." Other writers of the time described similar conditions : Procopius : "...during this year a most dread portent took place. For the Sun gave forth its light without brightness...and it seemed exceedingly like the Sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear." Lydus : "The Sun became dim...for nearly the whole year...so that the fruits were killed at an unseasonable time."

Michael the Syrian : "The Sun became dark and its darkness lasted for eighteen months. Each day it shone for about four hours, and still this light was only a feeble shadow...the fruits did not ripen and the wine tasted like sour grapes."

Was this a local phenomenon? According to the book "Volcanoes of the World", Dr. Timothy Bratton has noted that there was a small eruption of the volcano Mt. Vesuvius in AD 536. Could this be the cause? It may well have contributed to the scene (although the eruption was much smaller than the big one of AD 79), but it can not really account for the similar conditions that were experienced around the world. In China, "the stars were lost from view for three months". Records indicate that the light from the Sun dimmed, the expected rains did not eventuate, and snow was seen in the middle of summer. Famine was widespread, and in the midst of the turmoil, the Emperor abandoned the capital.

Bad luck tends to get bunched together, and thus came the plague. The Justinian Plague, named after the Byzantine Emperor of the time, is reported to have begun in central Asia, spread into Egypt, and then made its way through Europe. By some accounts, it was as bad as the Black Death which "plagued" Europe in the Middle Ages.

A Different Branch Of The Picture

Mike Baillie is Professor of Palaeoecology at Queens University, Belfast, Northern Ireland. He is an authority on tree rings and their use in dating ancient events (every year, a tree adds a "ring" to its trunk as it grows - good years are represented by thick rings while bad years are represented by thin rings). He conducted a complete (and continuous) review of annual global tree growth patterns over the last 5,000 years and found that there were five major environmental shocks that were witnessed worldwide. These shocks were reflected in the ring widths being very thin. Wanting to know more, he turned to human historical records, and found that the years in question (between 2354 and 2345 BC, 1628 and 1623 BC, 1159 and 1141 BC, 208 and 204 BC, and AD 536 and 545) all corresponded with "dark ages" in civilisation.

The minimal growth of trees around 2350 BC has been associated in the past with the eruption of a volcano in Iceland. Yet, the period in question is also associated with floods, the creation of new lakes, and even the start of Chinese history. Furthermore, Marie-Agnes Courty, an archaeologist from France, has claimed new data regarding a catastrophe said to have occurred in the Middle East. Samples from three separate regions all appear to contain a calcite material found only in meteorites, and analysis of debris show what seems to be a combination of "a burnt surface horizon and air blast."

Indeed, some 40 cities throughout North Africa, the Middle East, Europe, and Asia are thought to have been devastated, or even disappeared, about the same time in a series of catastrophes.

The twelfth century BC is associated with the "Greek Dark Ages", the end of the Hittite civilisation in the Near East, the end of Bronze Age Israel, and the end of the Bronze Age Shang dynasty in China. Ancient Chinese history has the notion of "mandate from heaven", where the rulers were essentially subject to the whims of the sky above. Strange sights in the sky would not be seen as good news for Chinese Emperors. Indeed, around this time, Chinese records speak of :

"...many gods and spirits were annihilated in this battle, and several stellar dignitaries were replaced by newcomers to the celestial domains." What could cause such global shocks? A likely answer, which has a good fit to the evidence, was what the European and Chinese observers described at the time as "dragons in the sky" - comets! We're not talking about an intact large comet (if that had hit in the last several millennia, we would not be here today), but rather fragments from a disintegrating comet or asteroid (small pieces like that which hit Tunguska in 1908). These would throw up dust that would envelope the world and dim our view of the Sun and skies. All this sounds like an interesting theory, but is there any evidence "above us" that fits in with the scenario. How do we account for so many impacts over the last several millennia when the consensus today in astronomy is that impacts causing global consequences (mild as well as major) are very rare?

Enter The Astronomers

Independently of Baillie's studies, British astronomers were putting together an explanation of the Taurid meteors that we see. The Taurids are related to comet Encke, as first shown by Fred Whipple, best known for proposing the "dirty snowball" model of comets. Mark Bailey, Victor Clube (brother of my rugby coach at school!), and Bill Napier put forward the theory that Encke and the Taurid meteors originated from a giant comet that fragmented some 40,000 years ago after entering the inner Solar System. The idea of a comet splitting up into smaller pieces is nothing new (witness Shoemaker-Levy 9 in 1994 and the return this year of the fragmented periodic comet Machholz 2), and indeed Dr. Brian Marsden of the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory is the originator of the idea that the bulk of sungrazing comets we see come from a large comet that perhaps originally split a few centuries before Christ, and has split again - this family of comets is known as the Kreutz sungrazers.

The astronomers noted that Chinese records of meteor observations over the last two thousand years revealed significant surges in the number of meteors observed every few centuries. These tended to be observed at the same time every year - we now know of them as the Taurids, which has a nighttime display in October/November (the Taurids South and Taurids North - see the end of the article), and a daytime appearance in June (Beta Taurids). Both meteor showers are linked. The Taurids South and Taurids North are what Earth encounters as the Taurid meteor stream heads towards perihelion, whilst the Beta Taurids are encountered as the meteor stream heads away from perihelion.

Unlike the most prominent annual meteor showers, the Taurids are not known for being spectacular because the stream is too broad. Whatever caused the Taurids must have been huge, as it was suggested many years ago as the primary source for dust in the inner Solar System. It is argued that comet Encke itself is a fragment of this larger, inactive comet.

Such a scenario implies that there are other objects in the Taurid stream, much larger than dust, that are unobserved because they are inactive. Is there any evidence for large objects in the Taurids hitting Earth in recent history? Consider the following :

In late June, 1178, an English monk reported the observation by five men of what is believed to have been an impact on the Moon. The American astronomer-geologist Jack Hartung has argued that this reported impact created the Giordano Bruno crater, known to be one of the youngest craters on the Moon. The timing of this event, late June, is consistent with the Beta Taurids. In his book "Rogue Asteroids and Doomsday Comets", former AAO astronomer Duncan Steel describes the fall of a meteorite on 25th June, 1890 near Farmington, Kansas. Besides its obvious timing with the Beta Taurids, the meteorite is most notable for being the youngest meteorite known (in terms of exposure to space). Dating of the meteorite has revealed it was separated from its parent less than 25,000 years ago (a factor of ten younger than the next youngest meteorite). Tunguska : On 30th June, 1908, a fragment believed to be less than 100m in diameter exploded over the Tunguska river in Siberia. It is the most well-known impact we know of in modern times. It is generally believed that the timing of the impact is consistent with it originating from the Beta Taurids. When the astronauts went to the Moon, they placed seismometers on the Moon's surface. At the end of June, 1975, they registered their major series of lunar impacts. The impacts were detected only when the nearside of the Moon (where the astronauts landed) was facing the Beta Taurid radiant. At the same time, there was a lot of activity detected in Earth's ionosphere, which has been linked with meteor activity. Obviously, given the presence of comet Encke, and the additional fact of various known Apollo-class asteroids which are observed to have orbits that resemble those of the Taurids, there is more in the Taurid meteor stream than just dust. According to Duncan Steel, some of the discovered Apollo-class asteroids that are in the Taurid meteor stream have diameters in excess of one kilometre. How many other Tunguska-type bodies are in it? Are they isolated, or do they exist in swarms? Meteor streams orbit the Sun, like the planets, but their orbits tend to be perturbed by the planets. The astronomers calculated how the orbit of the Taurids has changed over the centuries.

In "Lessons from Jupiter" (Southern Sky magazine, January/February 1995), Clube and David Asher wrote :

"Calculations based on an orbit related to that of P/Encke reveal intersections with the Earth's orbit around AD 600 and before that AD 400, so that a swarm would have been near the Earth's orbit for a duration of a few centuries around that epoch, the time of the European Dark Age. This then is a critical extended period when we might well expect several multi megaton [explosive] events, indeed a great many if we consider the globe as a whole. The perspective is evidently one in which we expect the Roman Empire to have gone into decline owing to multiple-Tunguska bombardment causing great tracts of land to be deserted and whole communities or nations to be suddenly dislocated. Of necessity, the period becomes one of barbaric movements." Chinese historical records of AD 540 say : "Dragons fought in the pond of the K'uh o. They went westward....In the places they passed, all the trees were broken. " The calculations for the Taurids suggest that we pass through the core of the meteor stream approximately every 2,500 years - today, we are passing through the outer edges. The last two occasions when we passed through the core were in 2200 - 2000 BC and in AD 400 - 600. The epoch around AD 3000 looks like being a fun time too - the Y2K doomsayers can always say they just got the millennium wrong. In 1983, the orbiting IRAS infra-red satellite discovered cometary "trails" (not tails), representing debris along the path of various short-period comets. These trails consist of debris, most of which would be microscopic in size, but how many large objects are there in the trails? If there are many large objects in these trails, then Duncan Steel notes in his above-mentioned book :

"A large fraction of the objects on Earth-crossing orbits, of all dimensions, are the daughter products from the break-up of a giant comet some time during the past 100,000 years, dynamical studies suggesting around 20,000 years as likely. All that is suggested here is a break-up similar to that undergone by P/Shoemaker-Levy 9 in 1992, except by a comet at least 100 kilometres across and in an orbit crossing from Jupiter to the Earth. The core of the complex...evolves to have a node near 1 AU every millennium or so, at which time the Earth is bombarded by many [large] objects in episodes at certain times of year. It is these events that dominate the hazard to humankind. Such an episode would last for a century or two."

Concluding Thoughts Ben Rudder, an anthropologist who reviewed in New Scientist magazine a recently published book by Baillie on the subject, wrote :

"If Baillie is right, history has overlooked probably the single most important explanation for the intermittent progress of civilisation. Worse, our modern confidence in benign skies is foolhardy, and our failure to appreciate the constant danger of comet "swarms" is the result of a myopic trust in a mere 200 years of "scientific" records." Baillie himself notes that : "There is, I feel, a strong case for the contention that we do not inhabit a benign planet. This planet is bombarded relatively often. If this story is correct, we have been bombarded at least three times - and probably five times - since the birth of civilisation some 5,000 years ago. And each time, the world was changed." In their book "The Origin Of Comets", Bailey, Clube, and Napier write : "the destruction and chaos accompanying the fate of the Roman empire [midway through the First Millennium] was all but total, the almost complete breakdown of the old order leading to a loss of the accumulated knowledge and wisdom of antiquity which was far from temporary." Some of these ideas you may have heard of before. In the 1950s, Immanuel Velikovsky published a number of books, in particular "Worlds In Collision", which suggested that a huge comet had come near to Earth, and had indeed settled into an orbit around the Sun between Mercury and Earth. Velikovsky was claiming that Venus was a large comet! Naturally, his ideas were rubbished. They had no scientific foundation. The problem today, as Duncan Steel notes, is that astronomers have become so entrenched in their rightful criticism of Velikovsky's nonsense, they are rejecting today's scientifically-founded discoveries that the myths and records of ancient civilisations may contain important information about what was happening in the sky.

Only now are we seriously contemplating the view that "near-Earth space" is anything but safe. Is it possible that the ancients were not entirely ignorant in their beliefs of the appearance of comets being a bad omen? Fragments hitting the ground would cause earthquakes and blast damage, as well as start forest fires (fire storms?) and perhaps volcanoes - which in turn would amplify the environmental effects through the release of soot into the air. Fragments hitting the water would generate tsunamis which would flood coastal and inland regions. Would it surprise you to learn that, according to Baillie, the ancient Celtics had an oath which translates as :

"We will not move from this place until the stars fall from the sky, the earth quakes and the sea comes over the land." In "Lessons from Jupiter", Clube and Asher wrote : "We do not of course deny a general background of [Earth-crossing asteroids] from the asteroid belt but it is these meteoroidal streams, harbouring swarms of super-Tunguska debris, which are now perceived as the source of high-level dust veils and low-level airbursts in the atmosphere, essentially controlling climate and extinction on Earth and punctuating the course of evolution." If our eyes weren't opened to the danger of fragmenting bodies after we saw Shoemaker-Levy 9, they should be now. Observatories are conducting surveys of the sky to discover and track near-Earth asteroids. The consensus of the astronomical community, however, still remains that the threat to Earth comes from random asteroids and comets. The idea of the inner Solar System being different now to from what it was 50,000 years ago has not been widely accepted. Nevertheless, more astronomers are open to the dangers associated with an object (currently known or to be discovered) that fragments in the future. Dealing with any incoming fragments, however, still remains a problem. You might think that "planetary defence" is a recent idea. Yet, readers of the poetry of Lord Byron might be interested to know that in 1822, when he was living in Pisa, he wrote : "Who knows whether, when a comet shall approach this globe to destroy it, as it often has been and will be destroyed, men will not tear rocks from their foundations by means of steam, and hurl mountains, as the giants are said to have done, against the flaming mass? And then we shall have traditions of Titans again, and of wars with Heaven." An Observing Postscript Although Comet Encke is only visible every 3.3 years (it returns next year), we can observe the Taurid meteor stream every year. As mentioned above, they have a broad display rather than a well-defined peak. Although their activity spans the period 1st October to 25th November, there are two separate maxima. The Taurids South maximmum lasts for about a week around 5th November, while the Taurids North maximum similarly lasts for about a week around 12th November - the two virtually overlap each other to produce a plateau.

The rates aren't high (at best, about 5 per hour) but they are easily seen, slow moving, and they have a reputation for producing very bright fireballs - a fact that has apparently been observed for thousands of years! The Taurids are visible during this period from late evening onwards, and with New Moon occurring on Monday 8th November, there will be no moonlight interference - the shower is well timed for the Society's monthly star party at Wiruna. Regardless of whether you're at Wiruna or elsewhere, if the weather is good, why not step outside and keep an eye on the sky - it will only be a week or two before the Leonids.

One thing is for certain : debris from the Solar System does hit Earth. If it didn't, we wouldn't see meteors every night! The astronomical community (in particular, those who specialise in comets and/or asteroids) is not yet convinced as a whole about the notion of the inner Solar System currently suffering from periodic bombardment from the remains of a fragmented giant comet. Nevertheless, David Morrison, principal author of NASA's Spaceguard Survey Reports in 1992 and 1995, and a critic of the British viewpoint, does admit that :

"While I believe that the British neo-catastrophists are wrong about the threat to Earth, their work is science, not pseudoscience. They are making their case to other scientists, and time will sort out who is right and who is wrong." Regardless of whether the specific theories referred to in this article turn out to be correct, observing comet debris hitting Earth's atmosphere now seems to take on a whole new perspective in our "enlightened ages".


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 536ad; ad536; ages; ancienthistory; archaeology; astronomy; baillie; bolide; catastrophism; clube; comet; cometencke; crevolist; curseofagade; dark; darkages; darker; economic; encke; ggg; globalwarminghoax; godsgravesglyphs; history; imagined; impact; levy; medieval; middleages; mikebaillie; napier; paleoclimatology; shoemaker; stalactites; stalagmites; than; velikovsky
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1 posted on 06/08/2003 10:31:29 PM PDT by blam
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To: Rockpile
Ping. You'll like this.
2 posted on 06/08/2003 10:32:40 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
END OF THE WORLD!

WOMEN AND MINORITIES ADVERSELY IMPACTED!

3 posted on 06/08/2003 10:41:39 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: blam; SlickWillard
very cool bttt
4 posted on 06/08/2003 11:05:38 PM PDT by KayEyeDoubleDee (const vector<tags>& oldTags)
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To: blam
The minimal growth of trees around 2350 BC has been associated in the past with the eruption of a volcano in Iceland. Yet, the period in question is also associated with floods, the creation of new lakes, and even the start of Chinese history. Furthermore, Marie-Agnes Courty, an archaeologist from France, has claimed new data regarding a catastrophe said to have occurred in the Middle East. Samples from three separate regions all appear to contain a calcite material found only in meteorites, and analysis of debris show what seems to be a combination of "a burnt surface horizon and air blast."

Is this the Iraqi Meteor strike?

5 posted on 06/08/2003 11:09:08 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Soddom has left the bunker.)
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To: blam
Fascinating article.

If this was written in 1999, why did they make the Y2K comment? Or did someone else insert it?
6 posted on 06/08/2003 11:10:53 PM PDT by RandyRep
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To: blam
The Romans claimed the invasion of the Huns around 450 AD was what triggered the disintegration of their Empire.
7 posted on 06/08/2003 11:19:23 PM PDT by Post Toasties
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To: blam
As far as " Dark Ages " spiritually speaking , I don't think any have been any darker than now.

I'd have to say they are just as stagnant today as they were then or ever.

Man somehow despite technical advances has remained just as ignorant as they were thousands of years ago.

That doesn't necessarily say as much bad about man as it compliments the control of man. Which I guess does nothing for the definition of man.

Has man ever really stood upright? Without another man telling him how to do it.....

Why are we so afraid to listen to God????????

8 posted on 06/08/2003 11:24:37 PM PDT by Eustace
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To: blam
Friday, 8 September, 2000

Tree rings challenge history

By BBC News Online's Jonathan Amos

Could a comet hitting the Earth 1,500 years
ago have triggered a global disaster in which
millions of people lost their lives?

It is an old claim that historians say has little
evidence in written records to support it, but
now a tree ring expert has said the idea must
be re-examined.

Mike Baillie, professor of palaeoecology at
Queen's University in Belfast, UK, said it was
very clear from the narrowness of growth rings
in bog oaks and archaeological timbers that a
great catastrophe struck the Earth in AD 540.

"The trees are unequivocal that something
quite terrible happened," he told the British
Association's Festival of Science. "Not only in
Northern Ireland and Britain, but right across
northern Siberia, North and South America - it
is a global event of some kind."

Dark Ages

Professor Baillie favours the idea that cometary
fragments smashed into the atmosphere
throwing up dust and gas that blocked out the
Sun. This, in turn, led to crop failures, famine
and even plague among the weakened peoples
of the world.

Professor Baillie said astronomers from Armagh
Observatory in Northern Ireland had published
research 10 years ago in which they said the
Earth would have been at risk from cometary
bombardment between the years AD 400 and
AD 600.

"This event is in AD 540, so it fits very nicely
into the window," he said.

"We know from the tree rings to the year
exactly when this event happened. And some
archaeologists and historians are beginning to
come round to the opinion that this was the
date when the Dark Ages began in Northern
Europe. It wasn't just when the Romans left."

Oral tradition

However, there are many more historians who
believe that if such a major event had
occurred there would be much clearer
references to the disaster in written texts. But
Professor Baillie urged them to go back and
look again - "to read between the lines".

He said mythical stories certainly seemed to
point to a comet striking the Earth at about
the right time. He said King Arthur died in this
period and some stories talk about long arms in
the sky delivering mighty blows.

"Mythology tells you and history doesn't and
that raises some very interesting questions
because the implication is that you could
suppress the written word but you couldn't
suppress the oral tradition."

Professor Baillie said chemical analysis would
be carried out on the tree rings to investigate
the comet idea further. He hopes also to get
access to ice cores to see if they record any
interesting data that might support the comet
theory.
9 posted on 06/08/2003 11:36:03 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Soddom has left the bunker.)
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To: blam
bttt
10 posted on 06/09/2003 12:35:21 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: blam
BTT
11 posted on 06/09/2003 12:36:43 AM PDT by nopardons
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To: Mike Darancette
"Is this the Iraqi Meteor strike?"

That was my thought. In fact, we may have had celestial showers each year for a while if the earth continued to pass through the comests trail that would be littered with derbis.

12 posted on 06/09/2003 8:13:28 AM PDT by blam
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To: Mike Darancette
" He hopes also to get access to ice cores to see if they record any interesting data that might support the comet theory."

The ice cores indicate an acid layer (volcanoes) at each of the event dates except for the 540AD event.

13 posted on 06/09/2003 8:15:51 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Does this mean my SUV isn't the cause of all the world's ills, since SUV's didn't exist at these times in history?

Hmmmm! Bet the enviro-terrorists don't like this article!

Great post! Thanks!!

14 posted on 06/09/2003 8:22:19 AM PDT by mil-vet
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To: blam
It was probably the Moors.
15 posted on 06/09/2003 8:25:57 AM PDT by Consort
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To: blam
Time for Project Spaceguard.
16 posted on 06/09/2003 8:30:44 AM PDT by The Iguana
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To: John Beresford Tipton; sasportas; Light Speed
Ping.
17 posted on 06/09/2003 8:37:04 AM PDT by blam
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To: Eustace
I'd have to say they are just as stagnant today as they were then or ever.

"Adamant pessimism"

I hold no such view ... God's word has affected so many more people's lives today there's *no* comparison with the past ...

The more I dig into applied science at a really basic, fundamental level the more stunned I grow how marvelous God's universe and his physical laws (so-called "Nature's laws") really are.

Perhaps you've grown jaded in your own life with too much ease, to much observation of only "what's on the surface".

18 posted on 06/09/2003 8:43:11 AM PDT by _Jim (http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20030320/09/)
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To: blam
Well, it looks like 700-900 year intervals, so we're about 500 years overdue, assuming it or they have some sort of regular periodicity. Guess I gotta start sleeping in the basement and carrying a baseball glove around when I go outside. Can't be too careful...
19 posted on 06/09/2003 9:36:08 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill
"Well, it looks like 700-900 year intervals, so we're about 500 years overdue, assuming it or they have some sort of regular periodicity."

Just something else to worry about along with West Nile Virus, SARS and Mousepox. LOL.

BTY, Mike Baillie, in his book Exodus To Arthur touches on the (apparent) 700 year cycle. Don't forget we had the 1908 Tunguska explosion (impact).

20 posted on 06/09/2003 11:29:30 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
You're correct, of course, about the Siberian thingy. But I'm not going to get complacent and assume that we're good until 2800 AD - I'm still taking my ballglove out with me...BTT...
21 posted on 06/09/2003 11:31:57 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill
bump
22 posted on 06/09/2003 5:15:11 PM PDT by gcruse (Superstition is a mind in chains.)
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To: gcruse
Bump? More like a big THUD!!!
23 posted on 06/09/2003 5:26:20 PM PDT by null and void (Who Cries For The Krill?)
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To: blam
" The calculations for the Taurids suggest that we pass through the core of the meteor stream approximately every 2,500 years - today, we are passing through the outer edges. The last two occasions when we passed through the core were in 2200 - 2000 BC and in AD 400 - 600. "

Well I'll be darned, here's another hint at circa 2200 BC.

Blam, have you ever seen any pics of the British "hill-forts", particularly the big ones that involved moving one hell of a lot of dirt? Some years back I hypothesized that they might be some kind of refuges for local populations against encroachment from the sea. I also believe that one of the reasons for ancient interest in the heavens was that they KNEW from experience that violent death from above was always a threat.

24 posted on 06/09/2003 5:49:00 PM PDT by Rockpile
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To: blam
Interesting! Bump.

This hypothesis makes a hell of a lot more sense than the whole Planet X tinfoil-hype does.

25 posted on 06/09/2003 6:05:14 PM PDT by DoctorMichael (Damn it Jim, I'm a Conservative, NOT a Republican!)
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To: Rockpile
"Blam, have you ever seen any pics of the British "hill-forts", particularly the big ones that involved moving one hell of a lot of dirt? "

Yup. Many anthropologists think all the talk about dragons, serpents, snakes and swords in the heavens are descriptions of comets/meteorites. You really ought to read Mike Baillie's book, Exodus To Arthur.

Did you know that King Arthur's father was named Pendragon?

26 posted on 06/09/2003 6:36:36 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Pendragon means head dragon or chief dragon or some such doesn't it?
27 posted on 06/09/2003 6:58:56 PM PDT by Rockpile
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To: Malesherbes
END OF THE WORLD!

WOMEN AND MINORITIES ADVERSELY IMPACTED!

PETERSON TRIAL WILL GO ON, LAWYERS SAY

28 posted on 06/09/2003 7:00:28 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (FOX NEWS SPECIAL- The World is about to be hit by an asteroid - Will this delay the Peterson trial?)
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To: blam
Interesting...
29 posted on 06/09/2003 7:08:17 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Rockpile
"Pendragon means head dragon or chief dragon or some such doesn't it?"

Yes. Chief of the ancient leaders.

30 posted on 06/09/2003 7:11:57 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam; All
Comet Hale-Bopp [1997] is a recent reminder that comets of long duration with no recorded history by man can appear suddenly.
Hale-Bopps duration estimated at 4,210 yrs...with previous passage in 2210 BC.
Calculating the return of prriod comets was markedly changed when comet Swift Tuttle did not return as expected..Brian Marsden of Cape Observatory South Africa discovering Comet Swift Tuttles 'Out gassing' as it rocketed away from the Sun.
The 'Cape effect' was also detected in Halley's comet by the Giotto space probe..the gas jetting exerted a force of about 5 million pounds..or nearly as much as all the space shuttle engines volume on lift off from the pad..the jetting of the comet continuing hour after hour..day after day.

Outgassing comets..altering their trajectories..some previous crossings near earth so may days short of a month in proximity..but what of the next passing on ellipse?
In Marsdens 1997 catalogue lists 1,548 comets with sufficient data to compute orbits,-91 from fragment data prior to the 17th Century.
What science really knows about comets ,in other words ,derives from data on an incredibly narrow sample of cometary behaviour as observed from our tiny corner of the universein three insignificant centuries.
Comet Encke,with the shortest of all known periods,at 3 1/3 yrs has become increasingly erratic in keeping its appointments in our skies.
Other comets which previously candessed and outgassed..have become inert ..approaching with no reflectivity..and exiting..a giant dark rock..tens of kilometers wide.

As Hale Bopp appeared suddenly..so could other comets of long duration..with orbits of 15,20 and 90,000 yrs.
Appear suddenly..and be in magnitudes of hundreds of kilometers wide...and inert;
Jet black Missiles...mirved into multiple warheads from gravametrics.


31 posted on 06/09/2003 7:18:26 PM PDT by Light Speed
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To: Light Speed; Mike Darancette
Thanks.

Mike, see post #31.

32 posted on 06/09/2003 7:26:05 PM PDT by blam
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To: _Jim
The only thing I am positive about is Christ , man tends to ruin things.

I'm refering to the thousands of incorporated churches who CANNOT say what Christ would say about us , our society and our government.Turning out blind followers of the State.

Since the 50's many of our churches have "incorporated" to the State , becoming the State churches that early American's were trying to escape.

I talked to a Pastor asking him if his church was incorporated and explained my position.

He smiled and said " They are not telling us what to say yet."

If you will check the tax code under 501 (c) 3 you will find that "incorporated " churches CANNOT say anything against government policy. That means homosexuality , sodomite marriages or political candidates.

I said what I said because not being able to speak the Truth as Christ would or being told what you CAN'T say under the threat of losing your "tax exempt" status ( granted by Caesar) is the same thing as being told what to say.Churches were supposed to be TAX FREE , that's what SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE means. A TAX FREE Church doesn't have to worry about government intrusion. That's what separation of Church and State means , it doesn't mean that the federal government who has NO LEGAL control over our Churches can remove our God from our public lives.

I look forward to the day when some asshole tells me that my Praying at a public meal offends him , because he will get a quick lesson in "offensive" after which I'm sure my Prayer will be a peaceful exercise of my Faith that he will no longer find offensive.

If our Churches can no longer speak for Christ , then we are in the dark ages. That's not pessimism , that's reality.

DARK AGES

Incorporation goes back to 600 BC in Greece. Rome used incorporation in Caesar's time as a form of government control.

Christian's were not slaughtered in Rome because they worshipped Jesus Christ , they were slaughtered because they refused to incorporate with Caesar. In Caesar's day it was called Licit , known as License today.

Incorporation is not an easy way for churches to allow their sheep to take their donations of Caesar's federal reserve notes off of their taxes , it's a trap created by government to prevent our Churches from telling us the TRUTH.

Why else would our pure government pass legislation to allow the FBI to spy on our Churches?

INCORPORATION is a deception that appears innocent on the surface , but becomes deadly for Christian's when You dig a little deeper.

So You see , I'm not on the surface. And I am trying to spread OPTIMISM , because Gods' word is something "We" can live FREE by and that scares a government whose main objective is enslaving us and taking everything from us including our God.

I hope I have made myself clearer , because I am willing to go as deep as I have to , to help others see our peril.

Peace

33 posted on 06/09/2003 10:02:30 PM PDT by Eustace
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To: RadioAstronomer; PatrickHenry; Junior
PING!!

Hey guys, check this out!!

PH and Junior, wanna do a big PING?
34 posted on 06/09/2003 10:14:12 PM PDT by Aric2000 (If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance god)
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To: Consort
It was probably the Moors

You mean the Moops.
35 posted on 06/09/2003 11:07:19 PM PDT by Kozak (" No mans life liberty or property is safe when the legislature is in session." Mark Twain)
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To: VadeRetro; jennyp; Junior; longshadow; *crevo_list; RadioAstronomer; Scully; Piltdown_Woman; ...
HEAD FOR THE HILLS! [This ping list is for the evolution side of evolution threads, and sometimes for other science topics. FReepmail me to be added or dropped.]
36 posted on 06/10/2003 7:41:19 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: Malesherbes
WOMEN AND MINORITIES ADVERSELY IMPACTED!

Actually I think anyone in the path of these things will be adversely impacted.
*Ba DOOM tsk!*
37 posted on 06/10/2003 8:58:54 AM PDT by Saturnalia (My name is Matt Foley and I live in a VAN down by the RIVER.)
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To: blam
These days, climate is of interest mostly for science frauds to exploit to get grant money--but it is of momentous interest historically.

Read about the "year without a summer", 1816, the firestorms in London in 1666, ...

Re: a relevant book--"The Little Ice Age"--how climate made history 1300-1850, author Brian Fagan.

38 posted on 06/10/2003 9:06:04 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle
I think I read that. Regardless, I'm familiar with the subject of the book. Thanks.
39 posted on 06/10/2003 9:19:55 AM PDT by blam
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
PETERSON TRIAL WILL GO ON, LAWYERS SAY

Doh! And here I thought there might actually be an upside to a globally devastating comet impact.

40 posted on 06/10/2003 9:54:51 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: Mike Darancette
"Is this the Iraqi Meteor strike?"

Yes. I also think this incident probably provided the imagery outlined in Revelations, the end of the world.

41 posted on 06/14/2003 3:50:32 PM PDT by blam
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To: Mike Darancette
"Is this the Iraqi Meteor strike?"

I think that was around 150 years after? It would still fit into the time band of a couple of centuries proposed here.

I assume Hekla did erupt in 2350 (I cannot recall now but it is too simple to verify for scientists, given the studies done in iceland, so it must have), but presents of extra-terrerstrial-type compounds in sediment layers in the ME is another story entirely.
42 posted on 06/23/2003 2:57:08 PM PDT by WoofDog123
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To: blam
Interesting ... according to the article we're moving into the Taurid metoer cluster as time goes by (every 2500 years and we're on the outer edge of it.) This was written in 1999 and stated that the meteor swarm would be back in 2000 with a period of 3.3 years ... so it looks like they may be back again in late 2003 early 2004 ?

Interesting.

43 posted on 07/10/2003 6:54:22 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: Centurion2000
"Interesting ... according to the article we're moving into the Taurid metoer cluster as time goes by (every 2500 years and we're on the outer edge of it.) "

Implies trouble if we start going through the center of the stream, huh?

44 posted on 07/10/2003 7:21:25 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
The Italian historian Flavius Cassiodorus wrote about conditions that he experienced during the year AD 536 :

"The Sun...seems to have lost its wonted light, and appears of a bluish colour. We marvel to see no shadows of our bodies at noon, to feel the mighty vigour of the Sun's heat wasted into feebleness, and the phenomena which accompany an eclipse prolonged through almost a whole year.

Almost-the-magic-number bump!

45 posted on 07/10/2003 7:26:49 PM PDT by 537 Votes
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
Chances are that an Ice Age will get us before a meteorite or comet.

Of course, glaciers are easier to outrun.
47 posted on 07/10/2003 7:37:54 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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