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A vast cavern is the stage for tests to find the 'God particle'
The Times ^

Posted on 06/09/2003 6:11:13 AM PDT by andy224

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To: AndrewC
What are you wailing about? RWP is still in good standing. If he chooses not to participate, that is his choice (this has happened before).

Yes, when an oddly privileged few are permitted to poop in the punchbowl (including the supposed no-no of reposting their own deleted harassing posts), some people will leave the party of their own accord. I'll anticipate a counter-argument and say that allowing such conditions to continue is purely a management decision. Still, it bites really bad.

61 posted on 06/09/2003 10:59:09 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: Physicist; Phaedrus
...Higgs mechanism.

I'm not a physicist, but you do sound like a pretty reasonable scientist, to me, to use this phrase.

62 posted on 06/09/2003 11:00:28 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: ShadowAce
How can the Universe be permeated by a field of unstable, rapidly decaying particles?

Good question.

Here we have to distinguish between real and virtual particles. Real Higgs bosons decay almost immediately, but the Higgs field is composed of virtual Higgs bosons. There are two reasons why virtual Higgs bosons don't decay in the sense that real ones do: 1) they don't exist long enough, and 2) there isn't enough energy available to create the decay products of a Higgs.

Virtual particles are hard to visualize. On the one hand, they aren't "really there", in the sense that there isn't enough energy available for them to exist, and they can't be manipulated like a real particle. On the other hand, they "really exist", in the sense that they do exhibit a subtle--or even a strong--influence on whatever physics is taking place.

The canonical visualization centers on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. It states that the uncertainty in energy times the uncertainty in time is intrinsically greater than some tiny quantity. One implication is that you can "borrow" an arbitrary amount of energy from the vacuum, provided you "pay it back" in a brief enough time that the inequality is satisfied. The more energy you borrow, the faster you have to pay it back, but as long as the HUP is respected, you won't violate any conservation laws. Since, in physics, whatever is possible is compulsory, the vacuum is therefore a boiling sea of every possible type of particle popping briefly in and out of existence.

63 posted on 06/09/2003 11:06:57 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: unspun
I'm not a physicist, but you do sound like a pretty reasonable scientist, to me, to use this phrase.

If "mechanistic" is cool, science used to be cooler before "Quantum" got added in front of "Mechanics."

64 posted on 06/09/2003 11:07:52 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
I'll anticipate a counter-argument and say that allowing such conditions to continue is purely a management decision. Still, it bites really bad.

No, I don't like adjectives connected with my name in discussions either. But after receiving incoming and firing warning shots, I also may release a fusillade.

65 posted on 06/09/2003 11:11:27 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Physicist
Since, in physics, whatever is possible is compulsory, the vacuum is therefore a boiling sea of every possible type of particle popping briefly in and out of existence

How fast?

66 posted on 06/09/2003 11:14:09 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: unspun
who is using the silly phrase "God particle" in the first place?

From the level of vulgarity, we might assume it is the editorial staff at Popular Science.

67 posted on 06/09/2003 11:15:31 AM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: VadeRetro; Phaedrus; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; AndrewC; Kudsman; man of Yosemite; DannyTN
If "mechanistic" is cool, science used to be cooler before "Quantum" got added in front of "Mechanics."

Well the point that I hope would be learned by now is that one should not assume "Aha! there's fundamental mass (matter)!" when all that is indicated is energy and process in a system.

I suppose that jumping the gun in that way would be called "Materialistc Fundamentalism" ....or is that "Fundamentalist Materialism?"

Isn't that what you'd call it?

BTW, the ancient Hebrews had a very interesting word for this kind of thing, which is translated into our word, "glory," It tends to be noticed as light, for example, but the root word is "weight." Maybe those folks knew something about QM... or something?

68 posted on 06/09/2003 11:18:36 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: AndrewC
Thank you for your usual lucid sharing.
69 posted on 06/09/2003 11:18:53 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: RightWhale
;-)
70 posted on 06/09/2003 11:18:57 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: RightWhale
When bound they live forever, nearly

Until they hit something that is painted black.

71 posted on 06/09/2003 11:21:56 AM PDT by Consort
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To: VadeRetro; Right Wing Professor
I'll anticipate a counter-argument and say that allowing such conditions to continue is purely a management decision. Still, it bites really bad.

No argument here. I'm still fuming that the mods let their (ALS and conservababeJen)crap go on for so long then just summarily pulled the thread out from under us.

I didn't know Right Wing Professor very well, but he sounded like a decent Conservative scientist. He will be missed.

In memory of Right Wing Professor. BTTT!!!!

72 posted on 06/09/2003 11:23:28 AM PDT by I got the rope
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To: Reelect President Dubya
Gödel demonstrated that within any given branch of mathematics, there would always be some propositions that couldn't be proven either true or false using the rules and axioms ... of that mathematical branch itself.

Maybe because mathematics was invented by humans to be a notational representation of agreed-on human logic, and human logic is far from perfect.

73 posted on 06/09/2003 11:26:51 AM PDT by Consort
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To: Gargantua
So our "maxims of modern physics" (much like our 'understanding' of Evolution) rely upon our having faith in something which not only have we never proven the existence of,

Not at all. There doesn't have to be a Higgs particle; it's just that the data we have strongly suggest that it exists, and it is mathematically the simplest answer to a number of questions. If the Higgs boson does not exist, something very interesting and obvious happens at LHC energies. A gigantic resonance (known as a "techni-rho") appears at energies less than about 1 TeV, caused by a very strong interaction between the W-bosons. And if there is no Higgs and no techni-rho...

but even once found cannot be seen. Hmmm....

It depends what you mean by "seen". Z bosons cannot be "seen", but the fact that they decay in our detectors means that they can be sensed with the right goggles, and that they possess reality in exactly the same sense as rocks and trees. I can't see songs, either; is my belief that they exist a matter of faith?

74 posted on 06/09/2003 11:27:05 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Gargantua
Science makes predictions, then when we get advanced enough, we test those predictons.

No faith involved, if the prediction is disproven, we move on and find another hypothesis that would cover the evidence available, and if that hypothesis fails, then wefind another. It is called SCIENCE.

Whereas if it were "faith" no amount of evidence would convince us we were wrong.
75 posted on 06/09/2003 11:28:27 AM PDT by Aric2000 (If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance god)
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To: unspun
There has always been a question of "What exactly is mass?" There's this intuitive notion that some things are somehow "made of more stuff" than other things, just what the "stuff" stuff is is a puzzle.

(OK, now you try composing a sentence with "stuff stuff is is.")

76 posted on 06/09/2003 11:29:00 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: AndrewC
How fast?

How heavy?

77 posted on 06/09/2003 11:29:20 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: VadeRetro
... just what the "stuff" stuff is is a puzzle.

'... but just what the "stuff" stuff is is a puzzle.'

Would help if my own sentence was grammatical.

78 posted on 06/09/2003 11:31:40 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
(OK, now you try composing a sentence with "stuff stuff is is.")

"Stuff, stuff,
'Is' is,
Oh, what a relief it is!"

(Picture Bill Clinton singing this while boinking an intern...)

79 posted on 06/09/2003 11:33:03 AM PDT by Physicist
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Comment #80 Removed by Moderator


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