'New' Jim Bakker Returns to Christian Television [SECTION 2 PLEASE POST IN THE NEW SECTION]

Charisma News Service ^ | 7 JUNE 2003 | Charisma News Service

[Quix]

[FIRST SECTION OF THIS THREAD IS AVAILABLE:

HERE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/925128/posts?q=1&&page=1

MSGS 501 TO 520 ARE AVAILABLE:

HERE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/925128/posts?q=1&&page=501]

Various related articles are available in the first section of this thread.

Blessings, Quix

[Quix]

PLEASE POST NEW COMMENTS IN THE 2ND SECTION TO ALLOW EASLIER LOADING ON SLOW CONNECTIONS.

[gcruse]

Walters Gets the Good Stuff

"Mistuh Jim Bakkuh, wiw youh wife, Wowi, be a tewevangiwist, too?"
"Will she be a what?"
"Wiw youh new pwogwam have heawing of cwippuhs?"
"What?"
"Wiw you way youh hands on the fwock?"
"I have failed.  I can't understand a word you say."
"Thank you and we'w be wight back!"

[Quix]

NO ONE IS ARGUING ABOUT THE HISTORY, GEORGE.

It was hideous.

Actually, your posting moderated my negative attitude toward his history. Thanks.

[Quix]

PING FOR POSTING IN THE NEW SECTION, PLEASE.

[Quix]

I don't know that it was cleaning toilets but something very basic and dirty.

I think the point was not so much the particular thing as it was that

WHATEVER THE PARTICULAR THING WAS--IT WAS TAILOR MADE TO SHRED HIS PRIDE. That HE saw it as humble and experienced it as humble compared to his past experiences.

For many of us, cleaning toilets for someone we loved would be an honor.

[9999lakes]

It's ok for Bakker to be back on TV.

He paid the price and learned his lesson.

Others have done worse and paid less.

[IncPen]

For the longest time I thought him and Bob Costas were the same guy...

[hole_n_one]

PLEASE POST NEW COMMENTS IN THE 2ND SECTION TO ALLOW EASLIER LOADING ON SLOW CONNECTIONS.

Back in the ol' days it was necessary to start a new thread after 100-200 replies because loading and refresh times suffered when the number of replies reached that level......

Now, and for quite sometime mind you, depending on your preference, one can establish a # of replies that will appear by setting a value under the setting called thread pagination....it can be set as low as 20 if one wishes.

So, your reason in creating a new post being "to allow for easier loading on slow connections" is "something", I'm just not sure what it is yet.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

You are elevating the necessary, to an act of humility... it isn't humbling. Bakker may have seen it as humbling. However, I doubt the Lord looked upon it as anything else than Bakker paying his debt to society. I don't think the Lord gives me any particular blessing, because I cleaned the bathroom, today!

[Pan_Yans Wife]

LOL Something, bump! :)

[Dante3]

I would never trust Jim Bakker. He was far worse than Jimmy Swaggart. I doubt he has changed all that much.

[Quix]

YOU SURE GOT THAT RIGHT.

Another point I hadn't thought of.

Thanks.

[Quix]

I have no idea who Bob Costas is???

But I've sure made similar mistakes with people.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I agree with your argument, if you say he paid the price to society. But, how do you know he has paid the price to the Lord?

[Quix]

I C.

Thanks. Had forgotten that aspect.

Was just trying to be thoughtful and considerate . . . part of my lifelong attempt to

DO UNTO OTHERS as I'd prefer done unto me.

[Quix]

But I bet

IF, IF, IF, IF,

Your mother say had all your first 18 years made cleaning a bathroom a real symbol of domination, slavery, disgust, punishment, demeaning belittling, hostility, etc. etc. etc.

such that by the time you got married, you did everything you could to insure someone else did it . . .

And then, suddenly one day in a spiritual epiphany, you realized through Christ you could clean the bathroom with joy as an offering to Jesus AND AS AN OFFERING OF LOVE AND SELFLESSNESS TO YOUR FAMILY,

THEN

I suspect The Lord would give you an extra blessing for your spiritual growth and overcoming in a stuck place kind of area.

Can you understand what I'm getting at so clumsily?

[Quix]

I think Swaggart's arrogance was much more intense, deeper and broader.

I think Bakker trusted too many arrogant people and manipulative people far too much and once Bakker himself was on the slippery slide of grossly evil doings, then he joined ranks more fully with the ranks around him to circle the wagons and justify everything to beat the band.

But Swaggart seems to have seen himself as his own justification from the beginning. I see him as leading the pack in evil doings and in their justification and in their circling the wagons.

In a sense, I see Bakker as complicit in his own downfall for sure. With Swaggart--I see him overwhelmingly leading the evil doings from the beginning.

I haven't seen anything to really dissuade me of these conjectures and conclustions and very much of what I've seen has just confirmed such.

But I doubt any onlookers really know--but God.

[Quix]

I believe his overwhelmingly different demeanor, attitude, spirit, approach to life and relationships etc. speaks volumes about

not only what he's done to make things right with God

but what God has done within him to make him much more right, inside-out.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

This doesn't work for me, sorry.

See, Bakker got caught, by the law, committing fraud, and was sentenced to prison, by the court... while there, he cleaned the toilet. Okay, fine.

But, the argument that he cleaned the toilet, "happily" for God, doesn't work, because he was cleaning the toilet in prison as part of his prison term, given to him by the court, NOT by God.

I do not know how you can say that by paying his debt to society, he was paying his "forgiveness/repentence", etc for damaging the Church. Because, the two aren't related. This is a duty as a citizen, who has broken the law... NOT as a servant of Christ.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

How do you know that he has made things right with God? I do not know how you can say this! This is akin to saying that "all is forgiven"... only God can say that, because only God can read the heart. That is God's domain, not ours. And because I cannot read a heart, I am skeptical about following in Bakker's footsteps. Those that did the first time, were following, "a man of God", and got burned. No saying, "but, but, but Jim Bakker did it" helped them, when it came time for them to face up to their crimes, and the Lord.

[WorkingClassFilth]

You go, girl.

[WorkingClassFilth]

Hey, Quixster! did you start this second thread so that I can mop the floor with you in stereo?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I'll add harmony! JUST JOKING, QUIX! :)

[Pan_Yans Wife]

:)

[WorkingClassFilth]

"I believe his overwhelmingly different demeanor, attitude, spirit, approach to life and relationships etc. speaks volumes about not only what he's done to make things right with God but what God has done within him to make him much more right, inside-out."

OK.

You've made a hypothetical case for Jimmy being a repentant lamb (which none of us actually know).

So what are the qualifications for one that serves in his position in the Church?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

If Jim Bakker is a stellar example of the fallen man who has redeemed himself, and become stunningly humble, working for the Lord, giving freely of himself... a complete turn around... don't you think it would be a HUGE, HUGE story, and the entire neighborhood would be buzzing with, "Did ya hear?" If he is as good as you say, he should be a household name, again! Everyone should be talking about him, praising him.

You can't seem to give me any other examples than saying, what you have seen on his show, over and over, and over again. And, I bet you that BEFORE Jim Bakker got caught, you said the same thing about him, then!

[Marysecretary]

And how do YOU know he hasn't, PYW?

[opus86]

"How do you know [Bakker] has made things right..?"

A good question. How do we know Mother Teresa was right with God? Or Billy Graham? We really don't - that's why a person's eternal judgement is up to God, not us. We can, however, see a person's fruit (lifestyle, pattern of behavior, works) and make decisions from a scriptural standpoint. Obviously Mother Teresa and Rev. Graham have been humble servants over many years, and their fruits bear out their words ("Faith without works is dead...")

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Well, in the recent past, he said he would never go back onto television. And, now he is back on television. To me, this seems to prove, as in the first time, Bakker would rather serve himself and seek fame and money, than the Lord's work.

[ladyinred]

I think Swaggart's arrogance was much more intense, deeper and broade

I think I have to agree with you on this one. He didn't seem to learn much,as he was caught again a few years later. He also ignored the usual staying out of the pulpit his denomination required. Not defending Jim, but he didn't continue in his sins that I am aware of, and he paid more than his debt to society.

[opus86]

I'm not sure I would agree that it proves that he is seeking fame and money. I would agree, however, that his service in Christian ministry should be in another area.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

You say he shouldn't be on television, and you say that you don't think Christian television should be asking for money on television. Doesn't it then hold true that you don't think he or his ministry, should be asking for money on television? Isn't it the image of Bakker asking for money on Christian television the crux of the matter?

[opus86]

I do not believe a Christian ministry on TV should be asking for money to keep them on the air, that goes for Jim Bakker or anyone else. If Bakker is doing that he is either not using wisdom or he is, indeed, returning to his "old form." I would hope that someone to whom he is accountable - perhaps Mr. Colson - would remind him of what got him in trouble in the first place. As for the crux of the matter, I've seen several "cruxes" in this discussion: Is Bakker repentant? Should he be on TV? Can/should we trust him?

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Why should we rely on Bakker to be accountable to Colson? We are all accountable for our own actions... please, don't make him out to be an innocent, who is being led into this by Colson. Bakker should be held responsible to himself, let alone the Scriptures. His CONSCIENCE should tell him to quietly minister elsewhere... he is an embarassment and an endangerment to the lost souls on the planet.

[opus86]

Perhaps you misunderstood my comments...First, I am not saying Colson led Bakker into anything. Obviously we are accountable for our own actions. Quix mentioned in an earlier post that Colson had been mentoring Bakker in the past, and I am simply saying that Colson could be a source of accountability. I agree - we must heed the Scriptures first and foremost. My point is that everyone should have some sort of accountability - like a presbytery (sp?) or denomination. That's the whole problem with TV ministries - too many of them have no accountability - no one in an authoritative capacity to raise the red flag and say, "You're way off - you need to repent."

We are all ultimately accountable to God, but I believe Scripture puts in place offices and entities meant to maintain order in the church. I believe there is a Scripture that talks about the importance of judging ourselves so that we can avoid God's judgement.

[FourtySeven]

What is there to debate about? He was a televangelist who abused his power. If people still want to support him, for whatever reason, fine, but JEESH.....can't get away from that history can ya? Nope, you can't. So if you want to support him fine, but don't cry a river if people want to mock him.

He deserves everything he gets really.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

But, Bakker doesn't seem to be judging himself, he has forgiven himself. You make it sound so easy... "God forgave him." Okay, does that mean the rest of us should suspend judgement and sit idly by? Shouldn't the members of the Church be policing themselves forcefully enough, that they can pinpoint the danger? Did the Church defrock Bakker? Did Bakker repay the money that he stole? Or, did he just get caught, and he is sorry he got caught, and had to serve time in prison, by the legal system. He wasn't truly judged by the Church, because the Church is supposed to "forgive". Well, the God I know has stricter guidelines for morality, and demands more intellect from His parishoners than most people seem to realize.

I would hope that those of us who have gotten caught with our hand in the cookie jar in the past, would not end up being the only volunteer willing to tend the kitty at the bake sale!

Next thing you know, those pedophile priests will be opening daycares... and if they are "forgiven", we should all send our children there! Isn't this the same logic? I say I am repentent, you say I am forgiven, and then I lure you back in as an easy target! The flock seems to enjoy being fleeced!

[IncPen]

This is Bob Costas:

[opus86]

What judgement should the church levy? Whether we judge him or not, whether he's right or not, someone will give to his ministry. If he is faking some of the flock - believing it better to err on the side of grace - will be fleeced regardless. As I recall the leadership of more than one denomination called for him to admit wrongdoing, repent, and pay restitution.

I'm not trying to make it sound easy...I don't know whether God forgave him or not - I believe that depends on his repentance. The church should do the same. I have seen evidence that he has changed, I am seeing evidence of bad judgement in regards to his return to TV. If I see that he is returning to "PTL Jim" I'll know where he stands in light of Scripture.

You say you're repentant, I say you're forgiven for that wrongdoing, and I am released from resentment, bitterness, envy, anger, etc. HOWEVER my forgiveness doesn't mean that I'm now a member of the "$1000 Vow Club" again. You go back and start the old foolishness again, then I'll know where you really stand and I can make judgements accordingly.

On the topic of accountability, Christians should be able to police themselves, however if there weren't a need for accountability the New Testament church wouldn't have recognized various offices.

[Quix]

PYW: This doesn't work for me, sorry.
See, Bakker got caught, by the law, committing fraud, and was sentenced to prison, by the court... while there, he cleaned the toilet. Okay, fine.

PYW: But, the argument that he cleaned the toilet, "happily" for God, doesn't work, because he was cleaning the toilet in prison as part of his prison term, given to him by the court, NOT by God.

Q: I disagree that you can say--especially with such seeming confidence--that God didn't engineer the prison as part of HIS training, purifying etc. process to blast, saw, sand and polish Jim B toward a more fitting servanthood more akin to that of Jesus Christ.

Q: In my experience, God has USED EVERYTHING--including my sins and all the details and aspects of such events--AS HE PROMISED TO DO for those who love Him etc. toward shaping me, overhauling me, refining me into the likeness of His Son.

I do not know how you can say that by paying his debt to society, he was paying his "forgiveness/repentence", etc for damaging the Church.

Q: Didn't and wasn't saying that. The prison etc. was MERELY *PART* of the CRUSHING, GRINDING TO POWDER ETC. process THAT GOD WAS USING IN THE REFINER'S FIRE PROCESSING of a very flawed piece of human garbage into the likeness of HIS SON.

Q: The issue of Jim B paying his debt to society and to the Church is a complex one. There are arguments about different factors on all sides.

Q: Personally, I'd rather leave the details and the whole thing to Jesus. Unless God says for me to take a part in being part of the solution, I prefer not to be part of the problem or part of a worsening of the problem.

Q: It is easy for me to say yes to Jesus about someone who's done very terrible things--because Jesus has taught me to do so WITH REGARD TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE WRONGED ME VERY DIRECTLY AND EXCRUCIATINGLY PAINFULLY--USUALLY IN THE CHURCH and far too often church leaders. So, I'm usually quite ready to say yes to Jesus when HE TELLS ME TO assist or cooperate with an offending brother in their now getting on down the road toward becoming more like Jesus or just in getting to the next step in their growth &/or ministry.

Q: IF we really tacked all the leaders to the wall for and kept them off the stage of life for not measuring up to Christ's standard, we'd have no leaders at all. And, actually, the best, in my experience, come from 2 categories--like the best counselors according to research--believers who have been reared well by humble, wise, loving parents and grandparents--we could all probably count those we know like that on part of one hand.

Q: OR those who've failed super miserably, been through refiners fires and long dark nights of the soul resulting--and been resurrected and set anew on the road to Damascus and their BEING A NEW CREATION IN CHRIST JESUS. And I'm not about to throw rocks--ESPECIALLY unnecessary, haughty, self-righteous rocks--AT SUCH saints.

PYW Because, the two aren't related. This is a duty as a citizen, who has broken the law... NOT as a servant of Christ.

Somehow, I don't seem able to get across the understanding that God uses anything and everything as grist for HIS MILL in grinding someone to powder--blowing them to the four winds and then calling the sub-atomic particles back together again as HIS NEW CREATION.

BTW, I want to commend you highly. I do NOT detect in your aspersions toward JimB the hostility and Pharisaical self-righteous judgmentalism of some others hereon. You seem 'merely' or mostly genuinely concerned for The Body and not out in some vengeance or vendetta sort of binge to castrate and otherwise hogtie Jim B.

I'm sure God will bless you for that.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

My concern is the Body, the Church, those who are trying to find the Lord and his grace.

I know many, many people who truly believe that the sinful among us are given blessings by God, because they hide behind the title, Christian. They do not understand that Christians are commanded by God to live the life of Christ. They see the mantle of the Church as a "get out of jail free card", and they do not realize that God requires a relationship with us.

These people who do not understand the give and take, between the Chosen and God, do not see the responsibility that the Church must protect. When these people see Bakker on television, they think that ALL Christians are like Bakker... or that ALL Christians are like the Clintons. That Christians talk nicely about God, but do not live better lives, and are not held to a higher standard.

It is the high standard that concerns me. In today's world, where adultery, divorce, homosexuality, etc... are all deemed "okay" by society, I feel like we are on a slippery slope. And that soon, if the Church doesn't put its foot down, the Church's voice will be silenced forever. If Christians do not hold ourselves accountable, we will not be able to spread the Truth about God, the glory of grace and save souls. It is the crushing of sin in everyone's life, and the power of redemption that must be the goal of the entire Church, at all times. When we lose sight of that, we are neglecting our duty to those who have never learned of Christ's love.

[TWRepublican]

We can't ever pay the full price for our sins, Jesus did it for us.

[Spirited]

"I disagree that you can say--especially with such seeming confidence--that God didn't engineer the prison as part of HIS training, purifying etc. process to blast, saw, sand and polish Jim B toward a more fitting servanthood more akin to that of Jesus Christ."

If God didn't engineer JB's prison term, neither did he Joseph's....and Joseph is widely understood to be a type of the Son of God.

Those who committed enormously greater fraud on Wall Street thereafter did not receive the "persecution added" sentences that he did. Even totally secular news writers were stunned by and did columns on the disparity.

The Reverend Jesse Jackson has never been touched with regard to the financial scandals in which he is/was involved. You can bet that like the other "white collar" criminals he would never be required to clean toilets. Only Christians and those who are viewed as "abusable" among the white collars get that kind of treatment. (The weak and the meek.)

[Quix]

I read your post as incredibly astute and Spirit birthed wisdom.

Thanks tons.

[lilylangtree]

Jim Bakker sans Tammy Faye who married Bakker's best friend returning to Christian tv. Interesting!

[maestro]

'New' Jim Bakker Returns to Christian Television

?.......Never heard of 'Christian' Television!

(Better,....'New' JB' Returns to Religious Television.)

Maranatha!

(Romans 10:17)

[Quix]

YES, "Faith comes from hearing THE MESSAGE and the message is heard through the word of Christ Rom 10:17

But I'm curious . . .

if we can have

--Christian book stores,
--Christian T-shirts
--Christian symbols
--Christian magazines
--Christian newspapers
--Christian plays
--Christian music
--Christian radio programs
--Christian concerts
--Christian bumper stickers
--Christian jewelry
--Christian conferences

. . .

What is this irrational aversion to Christian TV.

I can understand an aversion to

BAD

'so-called' Christian TV.

But THAT'S another issue.

[maestro]

St.John 1:1-3,
St.John 1:10-14,
St.John 1:16-17

[Quix]

i STRONGLY AGREE THAT ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES ABOUT GOD BEING THE SOLE CREATOR OF ALL THAT IS ETC.

ARE TRUE.

I'm also prepared for God to expand my understanding in any number of ways He might choose once time as we know it and this time space dimension as we know it and our earthly bodies as we have known them

are no more.

[maestro]

2nd Timothy 2:8-9